Gender Affirmation Surgery

[StrictlyBiz]

(08-08-2023, 09:10 AM)GMDino Wrote: This isn't a shot at you Biz...your line there just reminded me of a meme I saw just last night.



It got me thinking about a conversation I had at dinner before I saw the above where we were talking about the kind of jokes we made in the 70's and 80's and what we "could say" that our kids tell us we "can't say" anymore.

I have very mixed feelings (as I usually do) about this, but in the end I respect others when I am in public or around people who I feel would not understand where *I* am coming from and I am more careful with my speech.  But we're human so mistakes are made.

Even back then people got offended by say Polish jokes...so I didn't tell them to those people.

Society is changing again and we either change with it or look like dinosaurs.

I am not offended at all. 

But there is a huge difference between not agreeing about the number of genders and pedophilia. 

Not that linking the two was your goal, but we've got to be careful when quickly going to such extremes. 
"I believe in reasonable gun control laws"
---"You're a Commie!" 
Stuff like that. Or worse. 

To the second part, I agree. I look back at some of the things we said and did, and think...WOW! 

[*pally*]

(08-08-2023, 09:17 AM)basballguy Wrote: It’s hard when it’s thrown in your face every single day whether you care about it or not.

And the irony here is that it is conservatives that are doing the throwing with all their anti-transgender talk and potential laws. They are the ones that turned a relatively obscure subject into a national crisis.  

[KillerGoose]

(08-08-2023, 10:13 AM)Synric Wrote: The Definition of Gender is "Kind, breed, sex, derived from the Latin Ablative case of Genus, Like Genere Natus which refers to birth."

The only society part was attached to the words Gender Roles in the 50s and were shorten in the 70s to just Gender but the definition of gender is the above which is what we learned in health class in 90s. 

I would say that the definition of gender has changed, then. Most of the modern publications I can find refer, to some degree, what the WHO describes above, including both Merriam-Webster and Oxford. This isn't that strange, as words evolve and change over time. 

[*Nately120*]

(08-08-2023, 10:15 AM)basballguy Wrote: It's everywhere...I'd love to have your blissful ignorance.  :)

Holy crap, freedom is everywhere in the USA?  What a drag.  Did we win a war or something? 

[*Synric*]

(08-08-2023, 10:19 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I would say that the definition of gender has changed, then. Most of the modern publications I can find refer, to some degree, what the WHO describes above, including both Merriam-Webster and Oxford. This isn't that strange, as words evolve and change over time. 

Yea in my edit I said it changed in 2020 because of a push by the LGBTQ community. Of course this whole thing is less than %2 of the world population so it really doesn't matter as a "world issue". Alot bigger problems.

[StrictlyBiz]

(08-08-2023, 09:46 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Learning and evolving is a part of living in a society.

I've done both

[KillerGoose]

(08-08-2023, 10:24 AM)Synric Wrote: Yea in my edit I said it changed in 2020 because of a push by the LGBTQ community. Of course this whole thing is less than %2 of the world population so it really doesn't matter as a "world issue". Alot bigger problems.

I would agree that the amount of attention this subject receives is disproportional to the actual issue it poses (which is very low). I would much rather discuss climate change, the war in Ukraine, drug epidemic or any other major issue facing our society/world today but the trans topic comes up more often than any of those, perhaps combined. 

[Belsnickel]

(08-08-2023, 10:00 AM)basballguy Wrote: All the technical writings? So you’re saying there’s no “technical writing” out there that says otherwise?

This must be the first time in recorded history that “technical writings” have been wrong.

What a time to be alive!

There are writings by a small minority that would be self-published that don't use the language, but because the scientific community uses these standards it is what you will find in the journals when discussing the topic.

As for your statement that they "are wrong," I will take the overwhelming consensus from experts in their respective fields related to sex and gender over some rando on an internet forum any day.

[Belsnickel]

(08-08-2023, 10:24 AM)Synric Wrote: Yea in my edit I said it changed in 2020 because of a push by the LGBTQ community. Of course this whole thing is less than %2 of the world population so it really doesn't matter as a "world issue". Alot bigger problems.

Yeah, but the issues that really matter aren't as usable by GOP politicians to rile up their base.

[GMDino]

(08-08-2023, 10:15 AM)StrictlyBiz Wrote: I am not offended at all. 

But there is a huge difference between not agreeing about the number of genders and pedophilia. 

Not that linking the two was your goal, but we've got to be careful when quickly going to such extremes. 
"I believe in reasonable gun control laws"
---"You're a Commie!" 
Stuff like that. Or worse. 

To the second part, I agree. I look back at some of the things we said and did, and think...WOW! 

My personal philosophy is if you are not harming anyone else, and every is of consenting age (and consents) it really isn't any of my business.  

Yeah, I told some awful/off color jokes...lol.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-08-2023, 10:32 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, but the issues that really matter aren't as usable by GOP politicians to rile up their base.

This is an accurate statement, but it's not a very fair one.  You are certainly correct that the GOP has seized on this issue as a winner for them in the culture war.  But what is being dismissed, and baseball guy is being inaccurately called out for, is how much the cultural left actively promotes and pushes this issue.  Kaitlyn Jenner won Time's "Woman of the Year" after living as a women for ~a year.  How much did ESPN endlessly promote Lia Thomas?  The cultural left absolutely uses this issue to tout how morally righteous and progressive they are, so framing this as an issue only blown out of proportion by the right is demonstrably false.

As an aside, I recently learned that one of the Penn State swimmers was sexually assaulted in a bathroom when she was a teenager.  She reported that having Thomas in her locker room retraumatized her every time.  This is not just a cultural issue for some.

[BFritz21]

(08-08-2023, 12:01 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This is an accurate statement, but it's not a very fair one.  You are certainly correct that the GOP has seized on this issue as a winner for them in the culture war.  But what is being dismissed, and baseball guy is being inaccurately called out for, is how much the cultural left actively promotes and pushes this issue.  Kaitlyn Jenner won Time's "Woman of the Year" after living as a women for ~a year.  How much did ESPN endlessly promote Lia Thomas?  The cultural left absolutely uses this issue to tout how morally righteous and progressive they are, so framing this as an issue only blown out of proportion by the right is demonstrably false.

As an aside, I recently learned that one of the Penn State swimmers was sexually assaulted in a bathroom when she was a teenager.  She reported that having Thomas in her locker room retraumatized her every time.  This is not just a cultural issue for some.

That's one of the things I always asked: how many women have to be traumatized or even uncomfortable to qualify it being a problem to feed into Lia (or any other male) in the female locker room?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-08-2023, 10:16 AM)pally Wrote: And the irony here is that it is conservatives that are doing the throwing with all their anti-transgender talk and potential laws. They are the ones that turned a relatively obscure subject into a national crisis.  

As I replied to Bel above, this is an extremely unfair statement.  To pretend that it's only the right pushing this issue in the public square does your position no favors.  Both sides of this spectrum push this issue far beyond its actual numerical importance.  You frequently come off as very blind to the actions of the people you stand elbow to elbow with and hyper focused on those across the aisle from you.

[Mickeypoo]

(08-08-2023, 09:00 AM)GMDino Wrote: Why do so many people care what is in someone else's pants and how they live their personal lives?

They don't!  They care when it is forced on them and/or their children.  Do you seriously not get this?

When you start advocating for and allowing men to go into girls private spaces and force women to compete against men in female sports people are going to care.

When schools have sexually explicit material and push LGB material and ideologies on young children in public schools people are going to care.  Teach the basics and keep ideology/politics out of the classroom.

I could go on and on, but I doubt you care or even understand.

[CJD]

(08-08-2023, 12:12 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As I replied to Bel above, this is an extremely unfair statement.  To pretend that it's only the right pushing this issue in the public square does your position no favors.  Both sides of this spectrum push this issue far beyond its actual numerical importance.  You frequently come off as very blind to the actions of the people you stand elbow to elbow with and hyper focused on those across the aisle from you.

It seems to me like a chicken and egg situation.

Are leftwing people applauding and highlighting (And including) trans people because they are actively being marginalized by conservatives, both culturally and legally?

Or are rightwing people actively marginalizing trans people because they are being highlighted and applauded (and included) by leftwing people?

It's hard to say.

[Mickeypoo]

(08-08-2023, 09:17 AM)basballguy Wrote: It’s hard when it’s thrown in your face every single day whether you care about it or not.

Seriously, my place of employment was a smidge away from mandating pronouns in our email sigs.  10's of thousands of employees.  I'm guessing there may have been some possible legal issues they didn't want to deal with and backed off at the eleventh hour.

If you guys could see some of the mandatory "training" we have to endure you would be amazed.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-08-2023, 12:30 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: It seems to me like a chicken and egg situation.

Are leftwing people applauding and highlighting (And including) trans people because they are actively being marginalized by conservatives, both culturally and legally?

Or are rightwing people actively marginalizing trans people because they are being highlighted and applauded (and included) by leftwing people?

It's hard to say.

Honestly, it's immaterial as we can acknowledge that both activities described above are being actively engaged in.  What kicked it off strikes me as inconsequential, but if you forced me to pick one, I'd say it was Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner being lauded by the left.  But again, I must stress that I don't find "who started this" to be of any importance.

Kudos to you for being fair about the situation.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-08-2023, 12:44 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Seriously, my place of employment was a smidge away from mandating pronouns in our email sigs.  10's of thousands of employees.  I'm guessing there may have been some possible legal issues they didn't want to deal with and backed off at the eleventh hour.

If you guys could see some of the mandatory "training" we have to endure you would be amazed.

I highly doubt I'd be amazed as I'm a public employee in California.  But your point is taken.

[basballguy]

(08-08-2023, 12:44 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Seriously, my place of employment was a smidge away from mandating pronouns in our email sigs.  10's of thousands of employees.  I'm guessing there may have been some possible legal issues they didn't want to deal with and backed off at the eleventh hour.

If you guys could see some of the mandatory "training" we have to endure you would be amazed.

Chase did (or is doing) something similar.  I thought AT&T was on the verge of that last year.  It honestly wouldn't surprise me if more companies aren't at least considering this.  

My initial thoughts on this, based on what I've seen at AT&T (corporate), it's less of them trying to force it and more of a "**** it, just do it so we can stop having HR complaints"  The bad publicity just isn't worth it to these companies.  Especially when it comes to recruiting new/younger talent.  

This is also an opinion/speculation as I've never been important enough to be in the loop on decisions like that.  

[Belsnickel]

(08-08-2023, 12:01 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This is an accurate statement, but it's not a very fair one.  You are certainly correct that the GOP has seized on this issue as a winner for them in the culture war.  But what is being dismissed, and baseball guy is being inaccurately called out for, is how much the cultural left actively promotes and pushes this issue.  Kaitlyn Jenner won Time's "Woman of the Year" after living as a women for ~a year.  How much did ESPN endlessly promote Lia Thomas?  The cultural left absolutely uses this issue to tout how morally righteous and progressive they are, so framing this as an issue only blown out of proportion by the right is demonstrably false.

As an aside, I recently learned that one of the Penn State swimmers was sexually assaulted in a bathroom when she was a teenager.  She reported that having Thomas in her locker room retraumatized her every time.  This is not just a cultural issue for some.

So, here is my issue, though. I make a delineation between cultural efforts like what you describe and putting it on the political agenda. The Democrats are not, at least not nationally or in my neck of the woods, using those issues to drive their people to the polls. That is the difference and what I was highlighting in my statement.