Gennifer Flowers.

[Belsnickel]

Hollodero, it really is funny reading some of what you said, here. It wasn't too long ago I advocated for a new constitution on here, I advocated for a parliamentary style of government (because the way our POTUS interjects into legislature and the fact we have moved so far from the intentions of the framers we may as well just make it happen), and said that as a centrist on the geopolitical scale I am about as leftist as they come in the US.

[Rotobeast]

(10-08-2016, 08:54 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Hollodero, it really is funny reading some of what you said, here. It wasn't too long ago I advocated for a new constitution on here, I advocated for a parliamentary style of government (because the way our POTUS interjects into legislature and the fact we have moved so far from the intentions of the framers we may as well just make it happen), and said that as a centrist on the geopolitical scale I am about as leftist as they come in the US.

I knew it was an Alt account !!



Totally kidding, but I am impressed with Hollodero's knowledge.

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

[Dill]

(10-08-2016, 04:14 AM)hollodero Wrote: When I listened to the debate (oh yeah), that was the only point... I wouldn't go as far as to say he actually had one... but the only point where I didn't think that everything he said was completely appalling to the intellect. Of course that Japan nukes thing is BS; but although I do not know about the payment structures in NATO, I do know that I feel safe and that my country doesn't do squat for that. You indeed take care of us for free; guess we are just "geographically lucky".
Yes, the truth is much more complex, but it being simplistic doesn't make it completely untrue. If the US were to abandon Europe, we really couldn't do much if Putin rolled over the baltic states and marched right through Poland.
Trump just wants more money for protection. I figure.

Well you are kind of lucky, surrounded by NATO countries, so you are unlikely to suffer a land invasion without it triggering a massive response from NATO because one of those countries would have to be invaded first. Trump wouldn't be able to squeeze anything out of you for that "protection" because you didn't sign on.

On the other hand, you could suffer Paris-style terrorist attacks to force you out of the Middle East--oh wait, you're not in the Middle East.  Nevermind.

I don't think Putin could manage an invasion of Europe very well, even without the U.S. The Russian economy is about the size of Italy's. The German military is relatively small but could be expanded quickly--and backed by France and GB.

[*michaelsean*]

Ive got a question? Do Austrians sit around worrying what people in the US think about them the way libs worry about what Europeans think? I mean I don't get it if you do. We are allies, but outside of that what would it matter if I thought Austria was the greatest country ever or a bunch of limp wristed *******? What would it mattet if half the country thought that?

[*michaelsean*]

By the way, the censored word is a flower that begins with p.  It doesnt end with willow.  Dont get that one.

[Belsnickel]

(10-08-2016, 11:50 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Ive got a question? Do Austrians sit around worrying what people in the US think about them the way libs worry about what Europeans think? I mean I don't get it if you do. We are allies, but outside of that what would it matter if I thought Austria was the greatest country ever or a bunch of limp wristed *******? What would it mattet if half the country thought that?

Could be the fact that we are allies and our image around the world absolutely matters. The image we project to the rest of the world is a very important thing for us to understand. This planet is a global community and how we appear on the geopolitic stage is of the utmost importance. Aside from that, a lot of people like to sit in a bubble of confirmation bias, never looking past the indoctrinated view we tend to have of the US. Understanding the rest of the world and their view of us helps us improve as a country. Why do you think companies bring in outside consultants when they are doing poorly? When you're on the inside it is harder to see the flaws.

[*michaelsean*]

OK but Im wondering if, in this case an Austrian, is all worried about what we think of Austria.

[Belsnickel]

(10-09-2016, 09:29 AM)michaelsean Wrote: OK but Im wondering if, in this case an Austrian, is all worried about what we think of Austria.

I am aware, but the inference from your post is one of a passive aggressive attempt to mock those of us concerned about our image abroad. If that wasn't your intent, then I apologize, but thatvwas what I inferred.

[*michaelsean*]

(10-09-2016, 09:43 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I am aware, but the inference from your post is one of a passive aggressive attempt to mock those of us concerned about our image abroad. If that wasn't your intent, then I apologize, but thatvwas what I inferred.

Oh there was that, but I am curious as to whether that's an American thing or if it goes both ways.  

[Dill]

(10-09-2016, 09:50 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Oh there was that, but I am curious as to whether that's an American thing or if it goes both ways.  

The issue is not whether we think the other guys are great or limp-wristed, like Browns wondering what Ravens fans think of them.


People in many countries play very close attention to US politics and what the US thinks of them, because US politics affect them very directly, especially in the Mideast.  Even an American living in some Middle-Eastern countries can get very nervous about news from the U.S. and its impact on the local economy or politics. 

On the other hand, in some developing countries (Like India and Afghanistan), there are vast swaths of uneducated populace who know little about the U.S. beyond what they see in media and advertising. Some want to keep U.S. commercialism out of their culture, and so show no curiosity about the U.S. or what we think of them at all.  Others, especially the young, are enamored of the U.S. lifestyle as portrayed in movies and tv commercials, but are not necessarily curious about what we think of them.  The urban and educated, though, are almost always very curious and sometimes worried about what we think. Right wing nationalists in countries like India and Pakistan tend to be very curious about what our politicians think, not so much our public.

In Germany and the Scandinavian countries, most students come out of the Gymnasium reasonably fluent in English and easily able to watch our media and read our news reports.  So they are very aware of how media filter news through differing national perspectives, and often maintain an interest in international news long after school. Relatively few Americans can follow foreign language press.  So what they know of the world is filtered largely through our media and our interests--especially regarding Middle East politics.  Doubly filtered if Fox is your primary source, explaining why "they" hate us today. The higher the level of development, political democracy and education, they more "they" seem interested in us.

If you see important political or economic connections between the U.S. and Europe which can be affected by U.S. elections then the question of what "they" think of us becomes very interesting, sometimes concerning. Everywhere I have traveled, I have met people who know a lot about the U.S. but take it for granted that Americans don't know much about their culture or their region. That ignorance and incuriousity seems to be an internationally recognized trait.

From my perspective, the main reason for finding out what "they" think is that one learns a lot about one's own country from "them", how it is actually acting and perceived to be acting in the world. The political groups in the US which I presently regard as most threatening to democracy exhibit the least curiosity about what "they" think and concoct foreign policy proposals based upon a mythology of Cold War Victory. The less they know or care about what "they" think, the less likely that mythology will be dis-confirmed or even challenged.

PS are Austrians our "allies"? They aren't NATO signatories.

[hollodero]

Oh ok... guys, about the "do we worry about what foreigners think", I can tell you about the situation in Austria, but it really will not shed too many light on the underlying question. The situation of our countries is quite far apart on that one by the very nature. So prepare to be disappointed when I now answer these questions.

We Austrians actually need others to like us - or at least not to dislike us. It's utterly important for our wealth (not so much for the protection, that is after all indeed not that big of an issue). But we live off deals with our economical strong partners, we need those relations to stay as wealthy as we are. And maybe even more important, we need tourism, and a big part of our economical wealth is based on that. So naturally, the foreign view always is an issue here, especially in election years. We have our right-wing and we have the rest warning the voters about the bad image to the world should the right-wing rise to power. A strategy that generally tends to backfire in the end, but yes, it's an issue and honestly: rightfully so.

But that's how it's here, in a country with a population half of that of Mexico City - that gains much income based on the fact that obviously our mountains look nice in the sunshine and we somehow tricked others into believing skiing is fun and worth the huge expense. To simplify it. That has not much to do with a powerful nation like yours. When you want to draw conclusions on whether you should care about the foreign view or not, my country probably isn't too suitable for comparison.

I will say this though: If you do care, I can tell you what we care about (we being Europe, if I were African I would write quite different things). Torture, war crimes, Gunatanamo. The way you act like a big bully with the big bombs (in largely varying degrees, depending on who's running your show). You're getting thoroughly disliked in many parts of the population because of the actions you do take and don't take and all the hypocricies in that. Which does not always reflect in the actions of our leaders towards you, although listening to their phone calls isn't such a nice thing to do, too. We tend to excuse things, but the more outrageous stuff gets the closer people look. Trump already caused quite damage on the way we see the United States, obviously him being president would have a nearly devastating effect. But whether you should care about that or not, that's really not up to me to discuss. (Although, of course I personally would feel like you totally should.)

[hollodero]

(10-09-2016, 12:22 PM)Dill Wrote: In Germany and the Scandinavian countries, most students come out of the Gymnasium reasonably fluent in English and easily able to watch our media and read our news reports.  So they are very aware of how media filter news through differing national perspectives, and often maintain an interest in international news long after school. Relatively few Americans can follow foreign language press.  So what they know of the world is filtered largely through our media and our interests--especially regarding Middle East politics.  Doubly filtered if Fox is your primary source, explaining why "they" hate us today. The higher the level of development, political democracy and education, they more "they" seem interested in us.

If you see important political or economic connections between the U.S. and Europe which can be affected by U.S. elections then the question of what "they" think of us becomes very interesting, sometimes concerning. Everywhere I have traveled, I have met people who know a lot about the U.S. but take it for granted that Americans don't know much about their culture or their region. That ignorance and incuriousity seems to be an internationally recognized trait.

Interesting point... but don't forget, we as people are probably more alike than you'd guess. We have our national media with their various filters either, and we too don't speak French or Spanish. We can follow you, but honestly, we would not expect you to follow us just as closely. It's not condescending to assume that, and it probably really isn't meant that way in many instances.
Why would you follow all of our countries? 
I hardly know what goes on in, say, Portugal and wouldn't recognize the Dutch Queen. We are not that different people here. Some of "us" educated people (well, those who speak English and know how a LAN cable works) might additionally surf around and find themselves more interested in US media and politics for there's more at stake and it's the culture that influences us more via film, music and tv than maybe our own does. 
But that's that. Do not overestimate people's compulsion for news and education here. Plus, being somehow "informed" is certainly not a broad movement. Just look at some of the folks or ideas many people in our countries vote for. And those who don't aren't necessarily all smarter.

(10-09-2016, 12:22 PM)Dill Wrote: PS are Austrians our "allies"? They aren't NATO signatories.

Yeah no, we are not. We are not allowed to. We gained our independence in 1955 based on the condition that we commit to eternal neutrality. That was the idea of the four super powers. So basically it was you who commanded us not to be anyone's ally and never join any club like NATO.

I would instantly try to get rid of that stupitidy should I ever rise to power. And then probably get shot by a pacifist for that. And his message will be "bad things happen when good people do nothing".
We believe in this BS and turned it into a peaceful white dove, plus it's actually quite handy, so it's not just your fault. But nope, no allies, sorry folks, not possible.

[*michaelsean*]

I meant ally as friend.

Thanks for the answer, and Id like to get more specific. Obviously international government actions are important. How about internal? People think we are viewed as barbaric for the death penalty, or crazy cowboys for our gun ownership, or looney religious fanatics etc, and my thought is who cares? So are there things about Austria where you or other Austrians would worry about what foreigners thought?

[hollodero]

(10-10-2016, 08:32 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I meant ally as friend.  

Thanks for the answer, and Id like to get more specific.  Obviously international government actions are important.  How about internal?  People think we are viewed as barbaric for the death penalty, or crazy cowboys for our gun ownership, or looney religious fanatics etc, and my thought is who cares?  So are there things about Austria where you or other Austrians would worry about what foreigners thought?

Ah well... another hot iron, how nice of you.

But for the last part of your question, internal things also facture into it to a large extent. If we, let's say, get known as a xenophobic country because of our policies towards immigrants, this might and will have bad effects on our relations with other western countries. Or if we indeed introduced the death penalty, it would be an outcry from all other European countries and it would not bode well. Or if we get largely regarded as naziesque, which does happen. We experienced that once in the '90s, including sanctions and all that because our government wasn't liked. And we cannot afford having a Belgium minister state that skiing in Austria has become immoral (which DID happen). Again, we do worry a lot. But again, we're dependent, so there's a valid reason for that. See the differences.

As for your fine country, you don't face harsh immediate consequences. You just might lose our trust, but maybe you really don't need it (although I'm not so sure about that). We have our opinions on your gun laws and it's indeed puzzling what role religion plays in your politics. But I know best that there's no reason why you should listen to us or change things because Luxemburg says so.

There are often two sides to that medal, I'd say. Sure, Europe inherently does things differently than you do, which doesn't mean they do them "better", that's often not even a category. And you probably don't "need" us or anyone to approve of you, and I do get why one might think it appears weak to even care. On the other hand, external feedback can also be a valuable input for a society. You might as well benefit from comparing, you might benefit from learning about other perspectives and broadening your spectrum, you might benefit from listening to an outside opinion. The distance sometimes helps to see some patterns you might be too close to recognize. So there might be helpful hints stemming from caring about outside opinions.

[[[--- And we also do not axiomaticly think the USA inevitably and in any given respect is the greatest country ever known to mankind, as almost every US citizen seems to do. That kind of arrogance seldomly provides a helpful perspective. Couldn't leave that one out.]]]

But in respect to the point "it's important what others think because if they think badly of us, we would face a lot of disadvantages"... I still can not answer you that. In your case, it might not be a lot. That depends on what you want from the world, I'd say; and what you want to have to do with them. Maybe nothing. Depends on your political standpoint, probably.

If it's of any condolence, you don't really appear to us as a nation that cares much about how they appear to us.

[*michaelsean*]

Yeah I wasn't discounting listening to others viewpoints on any given topic.  I have no issue withthat at all.

And I have no problem with a citizen of any country thinking they live in the greatest country ever.  In our case we happen to be right,  but I have no problem with others believing it about their country. If you tell me Austria is the greatest country ever, I don't think you are arrogant.  You just really love your country.

[hollodero]

(10-10-2016, 10:13 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Yeah I wasn't discounting listening to others viewpoints on any given topic.  I have no issue withthat at all.

And I have no problem with a citizen of any country thinking they live in the greatest country ever.  In our case we happen to be right,  but I have no problem with others believing it about their country. If you tell me Austria is the greatest country ever, I don't think you are arrogant.  You just really love your country.

Oh, sure you are. On the scale of greatness you apply you always reach the perfect score. I don't know what this scale is and what can objectively be called "great", but I figure you do just because you're that great.

But well. It's really not about arrogance. It's about what defines a reasonable claim, really. Here's a difference, as I see it. There's loving one's country. We Austrians more or less all do, just as we love all kinds of things and persons that are far from perfect. - But you don't leave it at that, you actually say your country is better. I would never ever say that about Austria (for good reason and not because I have no love for it). And I think it is in any case a dangerous conviction. That is a) really based on what indicators? b) seems like you have reached some kind of eternal peak ("ever"?) and c) might make you blind for some things that indeed are not great in any sense of the word (and there are some). 

But I certainly don't want to offer too much criticism; I just have a different perspective of that, and that's certainly because I'm from a small nation. It's how I grew up, and it's how you grew up. I believe these three points to be valid. I believe it would serve you better if you left it at "The USA is a great country". It seems like the more accurate description. Going farther than that is what we would call nationalism. And I still would believe it's not the kind of thinking people of all nations should lean towards in the future. Now you might call it "being patriotic" instead and I certainly meant no offence - it's just what nationalism means to me in the pure sense of the word. And btw. it's how I - and many many others - see Americans, as overly nationalistic. Do you need to care? Probably not.

But nope, only few of us are as... let's say as patriotic. Let me tell you that Austria is indeed not the greatest country ever. There's plenty of proof.

[Dill]

(10-10-2016, 06:54 PM)ashollodero Wrote: Interesting point... but don't forget, we as people are probably more alike than you'd guess. We have our national media with their various filters either, and we too don't speak French or Spanish. We can follow you, but honestly, we would not expect you to follow us just as closely. It's not condescending to assume that, and it probably really isn't meant that way in many instances.
Why would you follow all of our countries? 
I hardly know what goes on in, say, Portugal and wouldn't recognize the Dutch Queen. We are not that different people here. Some of "us" educated people (well, those who speak English and know how a LAN cable works) might additionally surf around and find themselves more interested in US media and politics for there's more at stake and it's the culture that influences us more via film, music and tv than maybe our own does. 
But that's that. Do not overestimate people's compulsion for news and education here. Plus, being somehow "informed" is certainly not a broad movement. Just look at some of the folks or ideas many people in our countries vote for. And those who don't aren't necessarily all smarter.

Thanks for the response and info. I was not aware Austrian neutrality was forced upon it by the Allies, but I do feel safer knowing that

I wouldn't expect anyone in any one country to follow what's happening in ALL countries on any continent. That's not the standard/level of "informed" to which I was appealing. My points were more nuanced, tying interest and ability to economic and educational levels varying within and across countries. (Not all Germans are Gymnasium graduates.)

And one point was that many Europeans--proportionally more than Americans--follow SOMETHING of other countries' culture and politics, and through the other countries' media/language. One consequence of bilingualism or multilingualism (E.g. many Swiss do know French as well as German and English)  is that people, in addition to becoming better informed about international politics, do become more aware of their own media's filters.  English allows non-Anglo Europeans quick access to to British as well as U.S. media. Further, those in the EU are somewhat forced to pay attention to other EU countries' economies and elections, even if they can't speak Greek or Spanish.  U.S. Middle-East politics have a great deal to do with the current refugees crisis in Europe, driving interest in what is going on in those countries and in U.S. foreign policy as well.

One might argue that events in the Middle-East similarly drive Americans to pay attention to what's going on there, including "what people think of us," and that our immigration problem motivates curiosity about Mexico and Central America. But here I must say I been very disappointed.

If you have been following our election, you may recall that the Libertarian candidate for president, Gary Johnson, drew a complete blank when a journalist asked him about the situation in Aleppo. "What's Aleppo?" he responded. A few weeks later, Chris Matthews asked him to name one current world leader he admired. He could not think of a single one. (His VP chimed in "Merkel.") Johnson said "The previous president of Mexico," but could not remember his name. This is a former governor of New Mexico, whose state borders on Mexico. Trump, at least, could name Putin. That one candidate DOES know quite about about foreign policy and the politics of foreign countries does not seem regarded by the U.S. electorate a particularly decisive point in her favor.

[*michaelsean*]

(10-10-2016, 11:45 PM)hollodero Wrote: Oh, sure you are. On the scale of greatness you apply you always reach the perfect score. I don't know what this scale is and what can objectively be called "great", but I figure you do just because you're that great.

But well. It's really not about arrogance. It's about what defines a reasonable claim, really. Here's a difference, as I see it. There's loving one's country. We Austrians more or less all do, just as we love all kinds of things and persons that are far from perfect. - But you don't leave it at that, you actually say your country is better. I would never ever say that about Austria (for good reason and not because I have no love for it). And I think it is in any case a dangerous conviction. That is a) really based on what indicators? b) seems like you have reached some kind of eternal peak ("ever"?) and c) might make you blind for some things that indeed are not great in any sense of the word (and there are some). 

But I certainly don't want to offer too much criticism; I just have a different perspective of that, and that's certainly because I'm from a small nation. It's how I grew up, and it's how you grew up. I believe these three points to be valid. I believe it would serve you better if you left it at "The USA is a great country". It seems like the more accurate description. Going farther than that is what we would call nationalism. And I still would believe it's not the kind of thinking people of all nations should lean towards in the future. Now you might call it "being patriotic" instead and I certainly meant no offence - it's just what nationalism means to me in the pure sense of the word. And btw. it's how I - and many many others - see Americans, as overly nationalistic. Do you need to care? Probably not.

But nope, only few of us are as... let's say as patriotic. Let me tell you that Austria is indeed not the greatest country ever. There's plenty of proof.

No I'm not.  There's a difference between listening to someone's ideas are a topic and pissing yourself because someone from a different country says you are barbaric or backwards or whatever. 

And I read your objections to people saying they live in the greatest country in the world, and it still doesn't bother me if you or any other person believes they live in the greatest country in the world.  That being said, you are probably a deeper thinker than I, so someone saying they live in the greatest country in the world may have bigger implications to you than to me.

[hollodero]

(10-10-2016, 11:54 PM)Dilldo Wrote: I wouldn't expect anyone in any one country to follow what's happening in ALL countries on any continent. That's not the standard/level of "informed" to which I was appealing. My points were more nuanced, tying interest and ability to economic and educational levels varying within and across countries. (Not all Germans are Gymnasium graduates.)

And one point was that many Europeans--proportionally more than Americans--follow SOMETHING of other countries' culture and politics, and through the other countries' media/language. One consequence of bilingualism or multilingualism (E.g. many Swiss do know French as well as German and English)  is that people, in addition to becoming better informed about international politics, do become more aware of their own media's filters.  English allows non-Anglo Europeans quick access to to British as well as U.S. media. Further, those in the EU are somewhat forced to pay attention to other EU countries' economies and elections, even if they can't speak Greek or Spanish.  U.S. Middle-East politics have a great deal to do with the current refugees crisis in Europe, driving interest in what is going on in those countries and in U.S. foreign policy as well.

That might be true. I still believe you kind of overestimate this aspect, though. You see the ocean of intellectual sluggishness in your country, you might have missed out on ours.
Of our 8.5 million people in this country, over 3 million read one and the same newspaper. Guess what kind of newspaper this might be. If your guesses lead you to a word like "sophisticated", you're on the wrong track.

Some Europeans are multilingual, sure. A huge advantage and I envy those. Many here are certainly not, I'm not sure if I would call some even unilingual. What many of these these people - in varying intensities - "know" of refugees is simply they get here uninvited, they are bad minds, I don't like them, I want them out, I do not care if they die, might even cheer for it. They do know squat about Syria. There is no exaggeration here, and it's not just a few so I just... you know, the picture you draw is somehow a bit unbalanced and makes us look like such educated societies. That's just a segment, maybe the segment you interacted with. Now if yours is smaller, I would not know, I guess it is.

Sure, Americans don't really are known as particularly knowledgable people. No doubt.

(10-10-2016, 11:54 PM)Dill Wrote: If you have been following our election, you may recall that the Libertarian candidate for president, Gary Johnson, drew a complete blank when a journalist asked him about the situation in Aleppo. "What's Aleppo?" he responded. A few weeks later, Chris Matthews asked him to name one current world leader he admired. He could not think of a single one. (His VP chimed in "Merkel.") Johnson said "The previous president of Mexico," but could not remember his name. This is a former governor of New Mexico, whose state borders on Mexico. Trump, at least, could name Putin. That one candidate DOES know quite about about foreign policy and the politics of foreign countries does not seem regarded by the U.S. electorate a particularly decisive point in her favor.

I know Gary Johnson. He seems funny, a nice little funny meaningless clown. I don't know why you brought him up, I'd say people like him don't prove much - you have not seen what ran for president in OUR country. At least Johnson gets called out for knowing nothing, so that's a good sign.

The appeal of "outsiders" is a strange thing. It's almost as if people would not recognize the hard work a politician, let alone a president has to do. They would not trust a plumber without at least 5 years job experience to fix their toilet, yet they go for someone with no track record whatsoever to run the country. This kind of belief is strange. But maybe that's why her expertise and experience don't help Hillary - many people simply hold it against her. They found a magician who can fix stuff she and other politicians have learned to unintentionally sabotage. I know of course it's an empty smokescreen and the job is really about being knowledgeable, being insistent and working hard for small evolutional steps in an environment full of unpleasant facts and boundaries. Trump cannot change that. He can ignore it and cause complete chaos or he can let Pence run the show, but that's that. But I think people do not grasp any of these realities, which incidentally is also quite an American thing. (See: Climate change.)

[hollodero]

(10-11-2016, 09:46 AM)michaelsean Wrote: And I read your objections to people saying they live in the greatest country in the world, and it still doesn't bother me if you or any other person believes they live in the greatest country in the world.

We certainly all live on the greatest planet in the solar system.
Take that, Jupiter.