As stated in the title, Israel claims to have found the remains of the German young woman taken hostage at the music festival. I have seen reports that she was beheaded, but that is not confirmed in the Reuters link below.
Sadly, I don't think you're going to get a single young woman who was taken hostage returned. With the, disgustingly unsurprising, reports of gang rape of female hostages Hamas won't want to the PR nightmare of these women being released and then detailing the horrific abuse they suffered You got a couple of old ladies who were obviously treated well and then released intentionally, and specifically, by Hamas because they could detail that they were treated well. These young women are doomed. I'd expect Hamas to start claiming they were killed in Israeli shelling or bombing with a mangled corpse shown as proof.
I had refrained from commenting on this next video because what I have to say is disturbing, even more so when coupled with the below video.
When this poor young woman is pulled from the car you'll notice a large amount of fresh blood at the bottom of her thighs and her buttocks. I have, sadly, seen this exact same blood pattern before, on women who were violently raped, and usually sodomized. All the blood from that trauma would collect in exactly those areas if the victim was in a seated position. I'm honestly surprised this hasn't been pointed out by the Israelis as most people in my line of work could confirm this. For those that doubt me, notice there is no blood of note anywhere else on her pants, except a much smaller amount around her torn and scuffed up knee area.
Please remember this image, and this poor young woman, the next time someone tries and mitigate the actions of these monsters in Hamas.
(10-30-2023, 06:34 PM)GMDino Wrote: Absolutely horrible and deplorable.
If all of this is true that are more monsters than originally portrayed.
Honestly, I was watching the news with my sister that day and that immediately jumped out at me. I told her and she was just as horrified as you. Sadly, for radical Islamists "western women" are considered whores as they do not follow the rules if Islam (hijab etc.) so treating them this way is not seen as wrong or shameful. Please note I said radical Islamists, and not your average Muslim.
(10-30-2023, 06:28 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As stated in the title, Israel claims to have found the remains of the German young woman taken hostage at the music festival. I have seen reports that she was beheaded, but that is not confirmed in the Reuters link below.
Sadly, I don't think you're going to get a single young woman who was taken hostage returned. With the, disgustingly unsurprising, reports of gang rape of female hostages Hamas won't want to the PR nightmare of these women being released and then detailing the horrific abuse they suffered You got a couple of old ladies who were obviously treated well and then released intentionally, and specifically, by Hamas because they could detail that they were treated well. These young women are doomed. I'd expect Hamas to start claiming they were killed in Israeli shelling or bombing with a mangled corpse shown as proof.
Three questions:
1. How should Israel and the US respond right now to Hamas?
2. How is it that you want people in this forum to respond?
Seems you might be asking for something more specific than condemnation.
3. Why do you think Hams would NOT want the "PR nightmare" of raped women telling their stories?
I know it doesn't matter a ton, but do we know if this was a captive of the PIJ or Hamas? I know that both groups took hostages but I am sincerely curious about if there is a difference in how they are handling things.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(10-30-2023, 07:33 PM)Dill Wrote: Three questions:
1. How should Israel and the US respond right now to Hamas?
Why are you asking this question when you don't actually care about the answer? Nevertheless, if you want a thread on that topic then kindly start one instead of detracting from the story of women being kidnapped, gang raped and murdered by Hamas.
Quote:2. How is it that you want people in this forum to respond?
Seems you might be asking for something more specific than condemnation.
What do I want? I'm not your overlord or puppet master. We're all adults with agency, so I expect anyone who responds to do so in the manner of their choosing.
Quote:3. Why do you think Hams would NOT want the "PR nightmare" of raped women telling their stories?
Seriously? I'm being honest, is this a serious question?
(10-30-2023, 07:36 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I know it doesn't matter a ton, but do we know if this was a captive of the PIJ or Hamas? I know that both groups took hostages but I am sincerely curious about if there is a difference in how they are handling things.
I did not see that mentioned in the article in question. I am curious though, what would be the substantive differences in how they operate?
(10-30-2023, 07:37 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Why are you asking this question when you don't actually care about the answer? Nevertheless, if you want a thread on that topic then kindly start one instead of detracting from the story of women being kidnapped, gang raped and murdered by Hamas.
What do I want? I'm not your overlord or puppet master. We're all adults with agency, so I expect anyone who responds to do so in the manner of their choosing.
Seriously? I'm being honest, is this a serious question?
I was just wondering why you think a group that filmed and circulated the videos of torture and murder we see on the news--apparently with the intent to shock and hurt--should suddenly be concerned about bad PR? That's a serious question. But ok. No serious answer.
As someone whose statement on the effects of misreporting is now embedded in every one of your posts,
I'm quite entitled speak on "your" thread, as an adult who "responds in the manner of their choosing."
But while denying you are an "overlord," you tell me, and presumably others, NOT to choose any response
you think detracts from your framing of the story. Like with questions about where we go from here. Stuff like that.
(10-30-2023, 07:38 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I did not see that mentioned in the article in question. I am curious though, what would be the substantive differences in how they operate?
Hamas has more long-term thinking in mind than PIJ does. PIJ is more of just a chaos agent. At least that is my understanding of them. I could be off.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(10-30-2023, 08:06 PM)Dill Wrote: I was just wondering why you think a group that filmed and circulated the videos of torture and murder we see on the news--apparently with the intent to shock and hurt--should suddenly be concerned about bad PR? That's a serious question. But ok. No serious answer.
For the same reason they lied about Israel "bombing a hospital", because there are large numbers of people who will eagerly lap it up. There's something rather different when a woman describes her being gang raped by Hamas monsters.
Quote:As someone whose statement on the effects of misreporting is now embedded in every one of your posts,
I'm quite entitled speak on "your" thread, as an adult who "responds in the manner of their choosing."
This makes zero sense. No one is saying you can't respond, stop making things up. You asked a question, I answered it. If you don't want my answer then don't bother asking.
Quote:But while denying you are an "overlord," you tell me, and presumably others, NOT to choose any response
you think detracts from your framing of the story. Like with questions about where we go from here. Stuff like that.
I am allowed to respond as I choose as well, no? If you want to discuss how Israel and the US should respond to Hamas, why would you not make a thread on that exact subject? This thread is about a poor woman who was raped and murdered, and my strong belief that, sans being rescued by the IDF, the other young women will be killed rather than released. Your posts seem to be more about deflecting from the thread's actual topic. Why you want to ignore this poor woman's death, and the gang rapes of her and others, in a thread directly about it is a question only you can answer. I would be curious to know.
(10-30-2023, 08:37 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Hamas has more long-term thinking in mind than PIJ does. PIJ is more of just a chaos agent. At least that is my understanding of them. I could be off.
If that understanding is accurate I'd be inclined to credit it to the massive influence of Iran over Hamas. Regardless, I think the actions were far too extensive and widespread to be confined to PIJ alone. Also, has Hamas not directly claimed responsibility for many of these hostages being taken? They were the ones who released the older women, which does lend some credence to your position. But by the same token this is why I also think the younger women have a minute chance of being voluntarily freed, the long term effects of them sharing what was done to them would be extremely damaging.
This is one more example of the brutality of not just killing innocent Israelis on October 7th, but torturing, raping and beheading them.
I simply can't see how anyone can't condemn Hamas's actions? I can't see how anyone can side with Palestinians actions?
This woman and others were celebrating peace at a music festival. I have a lot of words to describe Hamas, one bing cowards. They have may years to build a military, help build the Gaza infrastructure, but instead used money to build tunnels.
Now they run and hide in these tunnels.
They caused this war, they are the ones doing nothing to help Palestinians. Their actions put every Palestinian, man, woman and and child at risk of starvation and/or death by war.
They simply left Israel no choice by their cowardly acts without warning killing and kidnapping Israeli women, children, men and babies. Over 1400 killed in one day, not soldiers, but like our 9/11 innocent civilians.
Free Agency ain't over until it is over.
First 6 years BB - 41 wins and 54 losses with 1-1 playoff record with 2 teams Browns and Pats
(10-30-2023, 06:28 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As stated in the title, Israel claims to have found the remains of the German young woman taken hostage at the music festival. I have seen reports that she was beheaded, but that is not confirmed in the Reuters link below.
Sadly, I don't think you're going to get a single young woman who was taken hostage returned. With the, disgustingly unsurprising, reports of gang rape of female hostages Hamas won't want to the PR nightmare of these women being released and then detailing the horrific abuse they suffered You got a couple of old ladies who were obviously treated well and then released intentionally, and specifically, by Hamas because they could detail that they were treated well. These young women are doomed. I'd expect Hamas to start claiming they were killed in Israeli shelling or bombing with a mangled corpse shown as proof.
I had refrained from commenting on this next video because what I have to say is disturbing, even more so when coupled with the below video.
When this poor young woman is pulled from the car you'll notice a large amount of fresh blood at the bottom of her thighs and her buttocks. I have, sadly, seen this exact same blood pattern before, on women who were violently raped, and usually sodomized. All the blood from that trauma would collect in exactly those areas if the victim was in a seated position. I'm honestly surprised this hasn't been pointed out by the Israelis as most people in my line of work could confirm this. For those that doubt me, notice there is no blood of note anywhere else on her pants, except a much smaller amount around her torn and scuffed up knee area.
Please remember this image, and this poor young woman, the next time someone tries and mitigate the actions of these monsters in Hamas.
If you freeze the video at 00:15, look at her right ankle. She was tied up. This is horrible on so many levels.
(10-31-2023, 12:02 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: This is one more example of the brutality of not just killing innocent Israelis on October 7th, but torturing, raping and beheading them.
I simply can't see how anyone can't condone Hamas's actions? I can't see how anyone can side with Palestinians actions?
This woman and others were celebrating peace at a music festival. I have a lot of words to describe Hamas, one bing cowards. They have may years to build a military, help build the Gaza infrastructure, but instead used money to build tunnels.
Now they run and hide in these tunnels.
They caused this war, they are the ones doing nothing to help Palestinians. Their actions put every Palestinian, man, woman and and child at risk of starvation and/or death by war.
They simply left Israel no choice by their cowardly acts without warning killing and kidnapping Israeli women, children, men and babies. Over 1400 killed in one day, not soldiers, but like our 9/11 innocent civilians.
What many fail to realize, or deliberately ignore, is that massive Palestinian casualties are Hamas's goal. They hide among the civilian population, they store munitions in sensitive places e.g. hospitals, schools and mosques. They do this to help ensure a steady stream of civilian casualties they can parade in front of staged cameras to paint Israel as barbaric and uncaring about civilian casualties. Every such death is a PR goal for them. In WW2 the Russian partisans would deliberately infiltrate columns of refugees and then shoot at German soldiers from them. The goal being to have the Germans retaliate against the refugee train, thus producing more partisans and enflaming the, initially receptive civilian population against the Germans. These tactics are not new.
The monstrous nature of the initial Hamas attacks was also intentional, so as to inflame Israeli anger and provoke a response they could then exploit in the media. The barbarism was a feature not a bug.
(10-31-2023, 12:20 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: If you freeze the video at 00:15, look at her right ankle. She was tied up. This is horrible on so many levels.
Indeed. And this is the key difference between these two sides, militarily. Hamas sees civilians as equal targets to military ones, they make no distinction. Israel does make such a distinction. Unfortunately civilian casualties are inevitable, literally unavoidable, but I do think Israel takes pains to limit them.
This all does make me wonder though. Would WW2 have concluded as it did if the modern media existed then? There would be daily videos of dead German and Japanese children, in the thousands, dwarfing the scenes coming out of Gaza. Something to consider.
(10-31-2023, 12:02 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: This is one more example of the brutality of not just killing innocent Israelis on October 7th, but torturing, raping and beheading them.
I simply can't see how anyone can't condone Hamas's actions? I can't see how anyone can side with Palestinians actions?
This woman and others were celebrating peace at a music festival. I have a lot of words to describe Hamas, one bing cowards. They have may years to build a military, help build the Gaza infrastructure, but instead used money to build tunnels.
Now they run and hide in these tunnels.
They caused this war, they are the ones doing nothing to help Palestinians. Their actions put every Palestinian, man, woman and and child at risk of starvation and/or death by war.
They simply left Israel no choice by their cowardly acts without warning killing and kidnapping Israeli women, children, men and babies. Over 1400 killed in one day, not soldiers, but like our 9/11 innocent civilians.
(10-30-2023, 08:37 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I was just wondering why you think a group that filmed and circulated the videos of torture and murder we see on the news--apparently with the intent to shock and hurt--should suddenly be concerned about bad PR? That's a serious question. But ok. No serious answer.
For the same reason they lied about Israel "bombing a hospital", because there are large numbers of people who will eagerly lap it up. There's something rather different when a woman describes her being gang raped by Hamas monsters.
To repeat: Hamas publicized videos of tortured people, perhaps even rape (who knows, we haven't seen them all), to shock and hurt Israelis, likely targeting the families. Seems like they wanted people to "lap that up." But if I understand you, you are saying they were worried about "bad PR" because of the rapes. Wouldn't that mean they DON'T want people to "eagerly lap it up"? Why worry about pr in one case but not the other? That was my question. People "lapping up" bombing story doesn't explain why.
(10-30-2023, 08:37 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As someone whose statement on the effects of misreporting is now embedded in every one of your posts,
I'm quite entitled speak on "your" thread, as an adult who "responds in the manner of their choosing."
This makes zero sense. No one is saying you can't respond, stop making things up. You asked a question, I answered it. If you don't want my answer then don't bother asking
But while denying you are an "overlord," you tell me, and presumably others, NOT to choose any response you think detracts from your framing of the story. Like with questions about where we go from here. Stuff like that.
I am allowed to respond as I choose as well, no?
You are allowed to send mixed messages. Yes. But why not just answer the question instead of going off into the weeds policing responses.
When you say: " I'm not your overlord or puppet master. We're all adults with agency, so I expect anyone who responds to do so in the manner of their choosing." It sounds like you are saying how people respond is up to them. You've no interest in controlling that.
When you say: if you want a thread on that topic then kindly start one instead of detracting from the story of women being kidnapped, gang raped and murdered by Hamas, then it sounds like you are playing "overlord," telling me to start my own thread, i.e., you do have an interest in controlling responses.
(10-30-2023, 08:37 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If you want to discuss how Israel and the US should respond to Hamas, why would you not make a thread on that exact subject? This thread is about a poor woman who was raped and murdered, and my strong belief that, sans being rescued by the IDF, the other young women will be killed rather than released. Your posts seem to be more about deflecting from the thread's actual topic. Why you want to ignore this poor woman's death, and the gang rapes of her and others, in a thread directly about it is a question only you can answer. I would be curious to know.
If someone were raped in my community and I posted a letter in the local paper asking how people/authorities should respond to it,
no one would think I was "deflecting" or "ignoring" the incident.
You are free to wonder off into WWII analogies, But I am "deflecting" or "ignoring" Hamas gang rapes
if I ask how you think people/governments should respond to them. Why?
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