German Hostage Found Dead

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-31-2023, 05:56 PM)Dill Wrote: To repeat: Hamas publicized videos of tortured people, perhaps even rape (who knows, we haven't seen them all), to shock and hurt Israelis, likely targeting the families. Seems like they wanted people to "lap that up." But if I understand you, you are saying they were worried about "bad PR" because of the rapes. Wouldn't that mean they DON'T want people to "eagerly lap it up"? Why worry about pr in one case but not the other? That was my question. People "lapping up" bombing story doesn't explain why.

You just said "perhaps even rape" and then went on to make a point that relies on them actually showing the rapes or admitting to them.  Then you accuse me of sending "mixed messages".  Great job there.  I would add a point I am, as usual, having to repeat when talking to you.  The actual woman detailing what happened to her is far more impactful than reading that they happened.  I have read hundreds of rape reports.  I have interviewed a large number of rape victims.  Trust me when I say that getting the report directly from the victim is far more impactful and gut wrenching.

Quote:You are allowed to send mixed messages. Yes. But why not just answer the question instead of going off into the weeds policing responses.

This didn't age well.

Quote:When you say: " I'm not your overlord or puppet master.  We're all adults with agency, so I expect anyone who responds to do so in the manner of their choosing." It sounds like you are saying how people respond is up to them. You've no interest in controlling that.

No, it's saying I have no agenda as far as eliciting a specific response.  My statement was in response to your saying the following

(10-30-2023, 07:33 PM)Dill Wrote: 2. How is it that you want people in this forum to respond?
Seems you might be asking for something more specific than condemnation.

You accused me of having a specific response in mind, I replied that I did not.  As usual you then twist the response to mean something different because you're incapable of not doing so.

Quote:When you say: if you want a thread on that topic then kindly start one instead of detracting from the story of women being kidnapped, gang raped and murdered by Hamas, then it sounds like you are playing "overlord," telling me to start my own thread, i.e., you do have an interest in controlling responses.

Oh wait, I must be mistaken.  See, when a thread is started about a specific subject and then someone, within said thread tries to steer the discussion off topic that was commonly known as "hijacking" the thread.  I seem to remember you complaining about people doing exactly that in the past.  But you'd never by hypocritical like that so I must be mistaken.

Quote:If someone were raped in my community and I posted a letter in the local paper asking how people/authorities should respond to it, 
no one would think I was "deflecting" or "ignoring" the incident.

Where you asking how Israel should respond to the rapes and the rapes only?  Because I got the distinct impression you were asking about how the US and Israel should respond to the Hamas barbarity in general.  Maybe you could phrase your queries more precisely?

Quote:You are free to wonder off into WWII analogies,

Citing an example of the type of tactics Hamas engages in is not "wondering off", but you are the king of semantic arguments so I'll leave you to yur fiefdom.

Quote:But I am "deflecting" or "ignoring" Hamas gang rapes 
if I ask how you think people/governments  should respond to them. Why?

Explained above.  Also, I think the current response is appropriate.  What do you think the correct response should be?  It's interesting that you find ways to quarrel with me in a thread about the horrifying rape of women by Hamas.  Dino, to his credit, confined himself to expressing his disgust at their actions.  But, for some reason, you felt the need to do otherwise.  Why is that?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-31-2023, 05:39 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: LOL. 

Might wanna hit the edit button there.

He used a double negative, but his point was made correctly, albeit in a clunky manner.

[CKwi88]

(10-31-2023, 06:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: He used a double negative, but his point was made correctly, albeit in a clunky manner.

Incorrect. Just because a sentence contains two negatives, doesn't make it a double negative statement. A double negative that would actually make (what I hope is) the intended message would be "I can't understand why people can't not condone". 

It's more likely a simple typo of using condone instead of condemn. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-31-2023, 08:17 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: Incorrect. Just because a sentence contains two negatives, doesn't make it a double negative statement. A double negative that would actually make (what I hope is) the intended message would be "I can't understand why people can't not condone". 

It's more likely a simple typo of using condone instead of condemn. 

You know what, you're 100% correct.  I literally read condone as condemn every time until you pointed it out.  

[Luvnit2]

(10-31-2023, 05:39 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: LOL. 

Might wanna hit the edit button there.

I edited it. Maybe I am wrong, but I have a hunch you knew I meant condemn versus condone, yet your only comment is about my grammar. We are discussing a young woman bing beheaded because she was a Jew and you have no comment???????

[Belsnickel]

Ok, so I was conflating the two stories in the OP. I have done a little more reading around the internet and seen that the German-Israeli woman from the thread title, it was her head that was found, or at least a part of it. According to other reports her body had not yet been found and it is believed by officials and her family that she was killed almost immediately during the attack.

As for the woman in the video, I wish I could say I was surprised by this. It is an unfortunate reality of armed conflict and has been all throughout human history. We like to think that we have moved beyond it, but in every conflict we know that isn't the case. Because Hamas and PIJ are terrorist organizations that take hostages, lack the formal military infrastructure, and don't tend to hide their activities like this as well as a result, we know more about this than when Russians invade Ukraine. People really suck.

[CKwi88]

(11-01-2023, 12:26 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I edited it. Maybe I am wrong, but I have a hunch you knew I meant condemn versus condone, yet your only comment is about my grammar. We are discussing a young woman bing beheaded because she was a Jew and you have no comment???????

What comment is there to be had? It's common knowledge that Hamas sucks. It's common knowledge that Israel sucks. 

This is a religious war. There is no right. Only varying degrees of wrong. Innocent people are going to die, just like this lady Hamas killed and/or beheaded, as well as those at a Gaza refugee camp Israel bombed to get to a Hamas leader. 

So if the supporter of either side wants to clutch pearls over the wrongdoings of the other, they can kick rocks, IMO. 

[Dill]

(10-31-2023, 06:18 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You just said "perhaps even rape" and then went on to make a point that relies on them actually showing the rapes or admitting to them.  Then you accuse me of sending "mixed messages".  Great job there.  I would add a point I am, as usual, having to repeat when talking to you.  The actual woman detailing what happened to her is far more impactful than reading that they happened.  I have read hundreds of rape reports.  I have interviewed a large number of rape victims.  Trust me when I say that getting the report directly from the victim is far more impactful and gut wrenching.
This didn't age well.

I said "perhaps even rape" because I do not know what was on all the videos circulated in Israel and other places BY Hamas. And I don't see why a woman or anyone "detailing" a rape would be more impactful than an actual video thereof.  So TWICE I spoke of circulated VIDEOS and your response is that testimony is more compelling that just "reading." You "repeat" because your answer continues to miss the actual question.

So I still don't see why Hamas would circulate videos of what they had done, only to suddenly worry about "PR" from victim testimony. 

Why wouldn't that further the goals which prompted them to circulate torture/murder video in the first place? If someone produces reasons to show that Hamas IS now suddenly worried about PR, that would offer some insight into how the development of the conflict is affecting Hamas' internal dynamic.

(10-31-2023, 06:18 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, it's saying I have no agenda as far as eliciting a specific response.  ...

 What do you think the correct response should be?  It's interesting that you find ways to quarrel with me in a thread about the horrifying rape of women by Hamas.  Dino, to his credit, confined himself to expressing his disgust at their actions.  But, for some reason, you felt the need to do otherwise.  Why is that?

Maybe there's my answer: Dino fit your agenda, confining himself to disgust while you elaborated Hamas' larger goals. 

I "felt" a need to do otherwise for two reasons: 1) your understanding of Hamas goals don't seem very consistent with Hamas' actions, and 2) I don't see much point in just "expressing disgust" as an end in itself. I don't think you do either, or at least in your own case. 

(10-31-2023, 06:18 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Citing an example of the type of tactics Hamas engages in is not "wondering off", but you are the king of semantic arguments so I'll leave you to yur fiefdom.

I didn't assume so until you told me to start my own thread when I asked a question about Hamas tactics.

I've mentioned before that you don't know what a "semantic argument" is (it always irked me when you erroneously claimed Fred used them). Wikipedia has a brief introduction to the topic with supporting examples.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_argument. E.g., when one accuses people who advocate for minority rights of "real" racism, modifying a definition for persuasive purpose, that's maybe the best current illustration of how one works.

[GMDino]

(11-01-2023, 08:38 AM)Dill Wrote: I said "perhaps even rape" because I do not know what was on all the videos circulated in Israel and other places BY Hamas. And I don't see why a woman or anyone "detailing" a rape would be more impactful than an actual video thereof.  So TWICE I spoke of circulated VIDEOS and your response is that testimony is more compelling that just "reading." You "repeat" because your answer continues to miss the actual question.

So I still don't see why Hamas would circulate videos of what they had done, only to suddenly worry about "PR" from victim testimony. 

Why wouldn't that further the goals which prompted them to circulate torture/murder video in the first place? If someone produces reasons to show that Hamas IS now suddenly worried about PR, that would offer some insight into how the development of the conflict is affecting Hamas' internal dynamic.


Maybe there's my answer: Dino fit your agenda, confining himself to disgust while you elaborated Hamas' larger goals. 

I "felt" a need to do otherwise for two reasons: 1) your understanding of Hamas goals don't seem very consistent with Hamas' actions, and 2) I don't see much point in just "expressing disgust" as an end in itself. I don't think you do either, or at least in your own case. 


I didn't assume so until you told me to start my own thread when I asked a question about Hamas tactics.

I've mentioned before that you don't know what a "semantic argument" is (it always irked me when you erroneously claimed Fred used them). Wikipedia has a brief introduction to the topic with supporting examples.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_argument. E.g., when one accuses people who advocate for minority rights of "real" racism, modifying a definition for persuasive purpose, that's maybe the best current illustration of how one works.

This just drags down the thread and forum.

There was already one thread on this shut down because it is a very personal issue for some and any nuance or disagreement is met with accusations of antisemitism.

We can say what Hamas did and does is horrible.  We can the killing civilians on both sides is horrible.

There is so much more to this war than anyone of us can understand or put into words.

[Dill]

(11-01-2023, 09:24 AM)GMDino Wrote: This just drags down the thread and forum.
There was already one thread on this shut down because it is a very personal issue for some and any nuance or disagreement is met with accusations of antisemitism.
We can say what Hamas did and does is horrible.  We can the killing civilians on both sides is horrible.
There is so much more to this war than anyone of us can understand or put into words.

We can try to understand, though, right? 

SHOULD try, in fact, since, as people will find out over the coming months,
the US is in this conflict now, on the Israeli side, not a mediator.  

I agree that making these discussions "personal" and tactically accusing people of anti-semitism is bad,
--and I don't do that--but the solution is not simply to cede the field to emotion and disinformation.  

[GMDino]

(11-01-2023, 09:57 AM)Dill Wrote: We can try to understand, though, right? 

SHOULD try, in fact, since, as people will find out over the coming months,
the US is in this conflict now, on the Israeli side, not a mediator.  

I agree that making these discussions "personal" and tactically accusing people of anti-semitism is bad,
--and I don't do that--but the solution is not simply to cede the field to emotion and disinformation.  

Yes, we should.  And we should have the ability to have the discussion in a civil manner.  But this issue crosses politics AND religion and many people, not just you and SSF will have run into the same disagreements. 

Any subject where their is a personal attachment will make dialogue much harder. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-01-2023, 07:39 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Ok, so I was conflating the two stories in the OP. I have done a little more reading around the internet and seen that the German-Israeli woman from the thread title, it was her head that was found, or at least a part of it. According to other reports her body had not yet been found and it is believed by officials and her family that she was killed almost immediately during the attack.

As for the woman in the video, I wish I could say I was surprised by this. It is an unfortunate reality of armed conflict and has been all throughout human history. We like to think that we have moved beyond it, but in every conflict we know that isn't the case. Because Hamas and PIJ are terrorist organizations that take hostages, lack the formal military infrastructure, and don't tend to hide their activities like this as well as a result, we know more about this than when Russians invade Ukraine. People really suck.

Yes, rape is an awful byproduct of military invasion, especially when dealing with a conscript army.  The key point here is if it is used as a deliberate tactic or is does it go unpunished when discovered?  If we use WW2 as an example, and here the Axis powers, German soldiers were harshly punished if they engaged in rape and were discovered.  The Japanese, not so much  If you look at the Allied powers the US and UK would certainly punish their soldiers if they engaged in rape.  The Soviets not so much.  I think for both the Japanese and the Soviets it could be said that it was, at worst tacitly condoned and at best ignored.  So, while rape is indeed a byproduct of war it is not equal across the board in either punishment or even being seen as wrong or unacceptable.

Hamas definitely falls under using it as a deliberate tactic, nor is it punished.  This is coupled with the fact that, for Muslim extremists, women who do not conform to Islamic standards are considered whores who can be treated any way you choose.

(11-01-2023, 08:04 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: What comment is there to be had? It's common knowledge that Hamas sucks. It's common knowledge that Israel sucks. 

This is a religious war. There is no right. Only varying degrees of wrong. Innocent people are going to die, just like this lady Hamas killed and/or beheaded, as well as those at a Gaza refugee camp Israel bombed to get to a Hamas leader. 

So if the supporter of either side wants to clutch pearls over the wrongdoings of the other, they can kick rocks, IMO. 

Only if we can agree that there are varying degrees of "suck".  Deliberate and wanton rape and murder of civilians is a huge step beyond engaging military assets and inflicting civilian casualties while doing so.  If you seek to see Israel and Hamas as bad actors in this fashion in a totally equal way you are delusional.  That would be akin to equating the action of the Allies and Axis as equally "sucking", which is obviously untrue.

(11-01-2023, 08:38 AM)Dill Wrote: I said "perhaps even rape" because I do not know what was on all the videos circulated in Israel and other places BY Hamas. And I don't see why a woman or anyone "detailing" a rape would be more impactful than an actual video thereof.  So TWICE I spoke of circulated VIDEOS and your response is that testimony is more compelling that just "reading." You "repeat" because your answer continues to miss the actual question.

So I still don't see why Hamas would circulate videos of what they had done, only to suddenly worry about "PR" from victim testimony. 

Why wouldn't that further the goals which prompted them to circulate torture/murder video in the first place? If someone produces reasons to show that Hamas IS now suddenly worried about PR, that would offer some insight into how the development of the conflict is affecting Hamas' internal dynamic.

I will honestly never understand why you ask a question, get an answer and then ask the same question, only in an overly wordy fashion.  I have answered this.

Quote:Maybe there's my answer: Dino fit your agenda, confining himself to disgust while you elaborated Hamas' larger goals. 

No, not maybe, not at all.  I gave you my answer.  

Quote:I "felt" a need to do otherwise for two reasons: 1) your understanding of Hamas goals don't seem very consistent with Hamas' actions, and 2) I don't see much point in just "expressing disgust" as an end in itself. I don't think you do either, or at least in your own case. 

Also answered.

Quote:I didn't assume so until you told me to start my own thread when I asked a question about Hamas tactics.

Also answered.

Quote:I've mentioned before that you don't know what a "semantic argument" is (it always irked me when you erroneously claimed Fred used them). Wikipedia has a brief introduction to the topic with supporting examples.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_argument. E.g., when one accuses people who advocate for minority rights of "real" racism, modifying a definition for persuasive purpose, that's maybe the best current illustration of how one works.

And back to pedantry.  I wonder if you realize just how banal having any type of discussion with you is for the other person?  As Dino correctly points out, this is not productive, so I will cease interacting with you on this topic so the thread does not become locked.

[Luvnit2]

(11-01-2023, 08:04 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: What comment is there to be had? It's common knowledge that Hamas sucks. It's common knowledge that Israel sucks. 

This is a religious war. There is no right. Only varying degrees of wrong. Innocent people are going to die, just like this lady Hamas killed and/or beheaded, as well as those at a Gaza refugee camp Israel bombed to get to a Hamas leader. 

So if the supporter of either side wants to clutch pearls over the wrongdoings of the other, they can kick rocks, IMO. 

It amazes me any liberal would support Palestinians who want to kill any Jew on earth and throw gay people off buildings. You feel Jews in the US and gay people in the US should be beheaded due to their life choices or religious views too?

[CKwi88]

(11-01-2023, 11:57 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Only if we can agree that there are varying degrees of "suck".  Deliberate and wanton rape and murder of civilians is a huge step beyond engaging military assets and inflicting civilian casualties while doing so.  If you seek to see Israel and Hamas as bad actors in this fashion in a totally equal way you are delusional.  That would be akin to equating the action of the Allies and Axis as equally "sucking", which is obviously untrue.

Like I said, it's a religious war. There is no right. They are both wrong. They are not comparable to Allies v Axis. It's more of a Nazi Germany vs Imperial Japan comparison. Acting as if one being less sucky than the other is of any true consequence is the true delusion. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-01-2023, 07:31 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: Like I said, it's a religious war. There is no right. They are both wrong. They are not comparable to Allies v Axis. It's more of a Nazi Germany vs Imperial Japan comparison. Acting as if one being less sucky than the other is of any true consequence is the true delusion. 

We completely agree on it being a religious war.  Outside of that I could not disagree with your assertion more.  Israel is no angel, to be sure.  But there is literally no valid comparison to them and Hamas.  

[Dill]

(11-01-2023, 08:04 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: What comment is there to be had? It's common knowledge that Hamas sucks. It's common knowledge that Israel sucks. 
This is a religious war. There is no right. Only varying degrees of wrong. Innocent people are going to die, just like this lady Hamas killed and/or beheaded, as well as those at a Gaza refugee camp Israel bombed to get to a Hamas leader. 
So if the supporter of either side wants to clutch pearls over the wrongdoings of the other, they can kick rocks, IMO. 

No. 

The bulk of people in Gaza are descended from those herded there in 1948 after the Israelis drove them off their land, 
which the Israelis now have. 

Since 1967, they have been locked there under Israeli control, without the basic human rights that Israeli citizens have. 
They have no freedom of movement; their economy is totally under Israeli control.

In 2005, after receiving US permission, Israel completely withdrew from Gaza and walled it in; it is an open air prison
(That's why Hamas had to break out with bulldozers to attack.) Gazans can be bombed with impunity if they fight back.

As conditions in Gaza have worsened, secular politics have failed or been coopted. Organizations like the PLO and PA
which recognized Israel simply appear neutralized as appropriation of land in East Jerusalem and the West Bank continues.

One branch of Palestinian resistance turned to religion and refused to compromise. Not surprisingly, it now 
attracts Gazans more than any other option. Hamas now channels a nihilistic despair of two generations raised 
inside that prison. They'll die a lot to hurt their captors a little, and perhaps to hurt the great power enabling them too.

The original and continuing dispossession, the power imbalance, the recognition thereof required for political resolution
--all that disappears once people start defining this conflict as a "religious war" with no solution.  

Israel will always have "a right to defend itself" against the people whose land and homes it continues to seize,
people for whose retaliatory violence there is "no excuse."

And our government will continue to support the dispossession, advising us, with the IDF, that the trouble really emanates from Iran.

[*pally*]

The world in 1947, via the UN vote for partition, gave 55% of “Palestinian” land to the new state of Israel despite the Jewish population being half of that of the Arab population. This in part happened to assuage western guilt over their own anti-semitism that drove their actions and inactions prior to and during WWII. Israel received Palestine’s largest city of Jaffa which was the area’s commercial and financial hub. Partition cut Arab villages off from their fertile farmland. The Arab world, who not unexpectedly voted against partition, promised the Palestinian Arabs that their land would be theirs again and started a war the day after Israel was formed and lost. Thus the Palestinians lost even the lands they were promised during partitions. And they’ve been fighting ever since as refugees in their own land. Of course, this is a way oversimplified history of the region. It’s a long and complicated history that has brought us here today.

This is land conflict all knotted up with religion. And it isn't ever going to be solved because at this point no solution will ever satisfy Israel or the Palestinian Arabs.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-30-2023, 06:28 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sadly, I don't think you're going to get a single young woman who was taken hostage returned.  With the, disgustingly unsurprising, reports of gang rape of female hostages Hamas won't want to the PR nightmare of these women being released and then detailing the horrific abuse they suffered  You got a couple of old ladies who were obviously treated well and then released intentionally, and specifically, by Hamas because they could detail that they were treated well.  These young women are doomed.  I'd expect Hamas to start claiming they were killed in Israeli shelling or bombing with a mangled corpse shown as proof.

As predictable as the sunrise.  The below is an archive version (free to view) of the NTY's article.

https://archive.li/LRfNX

"Hamas on Monday released a video of a 19-year-old Israeli soldier who was captured in the Oct. 7 attacks on Israel that included clips of her speaking early in the conflict and then images of her lifeless body. Hamas said she had been killed by Israeli airstrikes in Gaza on Thursday."

Almost as tragic as this young woman's death is that people will believe Hamas's bullshit story about her death.  This is, horribly, the first of many stories like this we will get.  Hamas can't let the gang rape victims live to tell their story to the world.  I'm sure the IDF will be "killing" more of these young women shortly.

[Luvnit2]

(11-14-2023, 02:24 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As predictable as the sunrise.  The below is an archive version (free to view) of the NTY's article.

https://archive.li/LRfNX

"Hamas on Monday released a video of a 19-year-old Israeli soldier who was captured in the Oct. 7 attacks on Israel that included clips of her speaking early in the conflict and then images of her lifeless body. Hamas said she had been killed by Israeli airstrikes in Gaza on Thursday."

Almost as tragic as this young woman's death is that people will believe Hamas's bullshit story about her death.  This is, horribly, the first of many stories like this we will get.  Hamas can't let the gang rape victims live to tell their story to the world.  I'm sure the IDF will be "killing" more of these young women shortly.

Hamas supporters believe what they want to believe. The same people who think Hamas attack on over 1400 innocent citizens (not soldiers) was justified for things that happened 40 years ago.

Hamas continues the charade Israel bombed and killed over 500 innocent Palestinians. The fact is few were killed and a Jihadist bomb misfired into a parking lot. Israel was falsely blamed. The same hospital Hamas is using (confirmed by US state department) as a human shield which is a war crime.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

A disturbing read on the gang rape and murder committed by the Hamas animals.

https://archive.is/3oQm5

Hard to feel sympathy for a people who could enable and condone, let alone celebrate, these types of actions.