German elections

[Dill]

CSU/CDU 1st, but AfD in Bundestag.

Merkel's bloc comes 1st in German election
http://www.nydailynews.com/newswires/news/world/latest-merkel-bloc-1st-german-election-article-1.3517585
Election officials confirm Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservative bloc has come first in Germany's election, paving the way for her to lead the country for a fourth term.

The federal election authority said early Monday that Merkel's Christian Democrats and the Bavarian-only Christian Social Union combined for 33 percent of the vote.

Challenger Martin Schulz' center-left Social Democratic Party, which has joined Merkel's party in a "grand coalition" for the past four years, finished second with 20.5 percent.

Alternative for Germany, which campaigned on an anti-refugee, socially conservative message, was third with 12.6 percent. It will enter federal parliament for the first time.

German election: Why Americans should care about a Merkel win
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/09/22/german-election-why-americans-should-care-merkel-win/692762001/

Checks and balances on Trump

German media have dubbed the gains by Merkel's Christian Democrats and leading opposition Social Democrats the "Trump Effekt" — broad voter rejection of President Trump and his anti-immigration, anti-European Union and anti-internationalist views. Only 11% of Germans consider the American president trustworthy, according to a recent Pew Research Center survey.

Lynchpin for economic security

Investors around the world already are cheering the election's expected outcome. This means Germany can help ensure a healthy global economy and avoid another financial meltdown, something that benefits the United States at a time when its economy continues to gradually gain strength.

Restraining Russian aggression

Merkel opposes Russian President Vladimir Putin's support for President Bashar Assad in Syria's civil war, as well as Russia's support for a separatist movement in East Ukraine. Merkel supports European Union sanctions against Russia for its intervention in Ukraine, and Germany is a loyal member of NATO, the western military alliance that Putin resents for enlisting former Russian allies.

Those views are in line with bipartisan American policy and assure that the U.S. has a close and powerful ally in keeping the world safe and stable.

Strong female voice for world leadership

Events of the past year have allowed Merkel to demonstrate that she is not only a strong leader for Germany, but for all of Europe — and maybe even the entire free world.

When the British voted last summer to leave the EU and Trump sharply criticized NATO, Merkel was an ardent defender of a united Europe and a policy of common defense. No other U.S. ally has stood up to Trump as forcefully as Merkel.

She also has been a leading critic of Russian aggression in Ukraine, played a crucial role in navigating the continent through years of financial crisis and a staunchly opposed Trump's decision to pull out of the Paris accord to combat global warming.

[StLucieBengal]

Good to see AfD getting seats. Not bad for a party that was only started in 2013.

[hollodero]

12.6% for the AfD is a bit shocking. Germany never had a party like that so relevant since probably 45.

The maybe bigger story though is the SPD on a historic low... der Schulzzug war sehr leicht zu stoppen. Since they are going opposition (as well as they need to), forming a government will be tough. And the result will be tough for the low-income Germans... Merkel can only reasonably go with liberals and green party, which are not to be mistaken with American liberals or greens. The liberals are the party of the rich, and the green party has become the party of the wealthiest voters as well.

The black-green-yellow alliance btw. is widely called "Jamaica coalition".

[Belsnickel]

(09-25-2017, 03:05 AM)hollodero Wrote: 12.6% for the AfD is a bit shocking. Germany never had a party like that so relevant since probably 45.

The maybe bigger story though is the SPD on a historic low... der Schulzzug war sehr leicht zu stoppen. Since they are going opposition (as well as they need to), forming a government will be tough. And the result will be tough for the low-income Germans... Merkel can only reasonably go with liberals and green party, which are not to be mistaken with American liberals or greens. The liberals are the party of the rich, and the green party has become the party of the wealthiest voters as well.

The black-green-yellow alliance btw. is widely called "Jamaica coalition".

The rise of the AfD is definitely interesting. Them having a seat at the table is a big step, but I don't see it progressing much further. When over 80% of the populous doesn't trust the party, it doesn't bode well for growth. That being said, more people trust SPD than CDU/CSU, so take from that what you will. 

As for the SPD, they need to get their shit together. I wish that die Linke, Gruene, and SPD could come together on things, but they just aren't going to be on the same page and so SPD likes to hitch their wagon to the CDU/CSU to have power.

As an aside, who is in the black-green-yellow alliance? My only reference to the representative colors is from Wikipedia (I read about the policies and politics in other places) and those colors would be CDU, Gruene, and FDP according to them. That just seems like an unlikely mix.

[*michaelsean*]

When do we get to America on this thread?

[Dill]

(09-25-2017, 09:33 AM)michaelsean Wrote: When do we get to America on this thread?

We get there when individual posters such as yourself raise "America" issues.

Subtitles like "Checks and balances on Trump" and "Lynchpin for economic security" and "Restraining Russian aggression" Don't seem to be about America? 

What do you make of this?

There is meddling in Germany's election — not by Russia, but by U.S. right wing

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/09/20/meddling-germany-election-not-russia-but-u-s-right-wing/676142001/

An alliance of mostly anonymous online trolls and extremist agitators meddled in Germany's election, but researchers said Russians mostly weren't to blame.

Instead, they said, right-wing groups in the United States were behind materials popping up on YouTube, messaging board sites like 4chan and reddit and texting service Gab.ai.

"A lot of the stuff we are seeing in Germany can be linked to, or is at least inspired by, the 'alt-right' movement in the U.S.," Hegelich said, referring to a loosely defined group whose far-right ideology includes racism and white nationalism.

Many denigrate both leading candidates — Merkel and her conservative Christian Democratic Union party, and her chief rival, Martin Schulz of the left-of-center Social Democratic Party — with the hashtags #Merkel and #Schulz.

And many of those posts originate in the U.S., adding to the impression that right-wing social media users in both countries may be trying to sway German public opinion. It's possible that some of this alt-right messaging coming out of the U.S. may be connected to Russian interference; that, too, is difficult to determine, Hegelich said.

A report published Wednesday by Hope Not Hate, a British anti-racism watchdog, concluded that the alt-right movement has "breathed life and youth back into formerly declining and dormant parts of the European extreme right."

The report, based on an undercover investigation of far-right figureheads, found that extremist individuals, organizations, websites and forums on both sides of the Atlantic are increasingly engaging with each another and "weaponizing" the Internet.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-25-2017, 10:28 AM)Dill Wrote: We get there when individual posters such as yourself raise "America" issues.

Subtitles like "Checks and balances on Trump" and "Lynchpin for economic security" and "Restraining Russian aggression" Don't seem to be about America? 

What do you make of this?

There is meddling in Germany's election — not by Russia, but by U.S. right wing

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/09/20/meddling-germany-election-not-russia-but-u-s-right-wing/676142001/

An alliance of mostly anonymous online trolls and extremist agitators meddled in Germany's election, but researchers said Russians mostly weren't to blame.

Instead, they said, right-wing groups in the United States were behind materials popping up on YouTube, messaging board sites like 4chan and reddit and texting service Gab.ai.

"A lot of the stuff we are seeing in Germany can be linked to, or is at least inspired by, the 'alt-right' movement in the U.S.," Hegelich said, referring to a loosely defined group whose far-right ideology includes racism and white nationalism.

Many denigrate both leading candidates — Merkel and her conservative Christian Democratic Union party, and her chief rival, Martin Schulz of the left-of-center Social Democratic Party — with the hashtags #Merkel and #Schulz.

And many of those posts originate in the U.S., adding to the impression that right-wing social media users in both countries may be trying to sway German public opinion. It's possible that some of this alt-right messaging coming out of the U.S. may be connected to Russian interference; that, too, is difficult to determine, Hegelich said.

A report published Wednesday by Hope Not Hate, a British anti-racism watchdog, concluded that the alt-right movement has "breathed life and youth back into formerly declining and dormant parts of the European extreme right."

The report, based on an undercover investigation of far-right figureheads, found that extremist individuals, organizations, websites and forums on both sides of the Atlantic are increasingly engaging with each another and "weaponizing" the Internet.

 OK thanks.

[BmorePat87]

Good to see that the reasonable folks prevailed with the majority of the support. I was talking to a sub about this today and he told me he spends half of the year in Prague for his other job, so he goes to Germany a lot. He said Germany has been eerily different since these fringe alt right groups began to pop up.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-25-2017, 10:28 AM)Dill Wrote: We get there when individual posters such as yourself raise "America" issues.

Subtitles like "Checks and balances on Trump" and "Lynchpin for economic security" and "Restraining Russian aggression" Don't seem to be about America? 

What do you make of this?

There is meddling in Germany's election — not by Russia, but by U.S. right wing

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/09/20/meddling-germany-election-not-russia-but-u-s-right-wing/676142001/

An alliance of mostly anonymous online trolls and extremist agitators meddled in Germany's election, but researchers said Russians mostly weren't to blame.

Instead, they said, right-wing groups in the United States were behind materials popping up on YouTube, messaging board sites like 4chan and reddit and texting service Gab.ai.

"A lot of the stuff we are seeing in Germany can be linked to, or is at least inspired by, the 'alt-right' movement in the U.S.," Hegelich said, referring to a loosely defined group whose far-right ideology includes racism and white nationalism.

Many denigrate both leading candidates — Merkel and her conservative Christian Democratic Union party, and her chief rival, Martin Schulz of the left-of-center Social Democratic Party — with the hashtags #Merkel and #Schulz.

And many of those posts originate in the U.S., adding to the impression that right-wing social media users in both countries may be trying to sway German public opinion. It's possible that some of this alt-right messaging coming out of the U.S. may be connected to Russian interference; that, too, is difficult to determine, Hegelich said.

A report published Wednesday by Hope Not Hate, a British anti-racism watchdog, concluded that the alt-right movement has "breathed life and youth back into formerly declining and dormant parts of the European extreme right."

The report, based on an undercover investigation of far-right figureheads, found that extremist individuals, organizations, websites and forums on both sides of the Atlantic are increasingly engaging with each another and "weaponizing" the Internet.

The correct response to this is, what exactly are you telling me that's new, surprising or supposed to provoke concern?  Countries have been meddling in the elections of other countries, and trying to sway popular opinion, since countries had elections.  What I find far more troubling is the implication of the article, and people like yourself, that seem to believe human beings are sheep who can't think for themselves, therefore we must protect them from information or ideas that might influence them in ways "we" find objectionable.  See, I'm about personal responsibility, so let everyone speak and expound.  Human beings can then make their own decisions, eh comrade?

[hollodero]

(09-25-2017, 09:33 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: As an aside, who is in the black-green-yellow alliance? My only reference to the representative colors is from Wikipedia (I read about the policies and politics in other places) and those colors would be CDU, Gruene, and FDP according to them. That just seems like an unlikely mix.

It might seem an unlikely mix and maybe it is, but yes that's Jamaica. And if SPD indeed wants to be in opposition, there's no other viable alternative. No one goes AfD, and no one goes Linke.

FDP and Grüne might be closer than you think though. Grüne isn't that far left as one might think, and both parties have an above-average wealthy electorate. And both parties have shown that they can act quite pragmatic and compromize (or betray the electorate, however one wants to see it).

And SPD and getting their stuff together, there's only so much voters can forgive. The years of red-green government are still a disappointment to many, as was the CSU-SPD period afterwards. Plus they had strange figures on top in recent years, the party never gained any profile or appeal anymore. Poor Schulz, he came way too late I guess.

[Dill]

(09-25-2017, 03:05 AM)hollodero Wrote: ... der Schulzzug war sehr leicht zu stoppen.

Verstehe kein auslandisch . . . hier wird Englisch gesprochen!

(09-25-2017, 03:05 AM)hollodero Wrote: 12.6% for the AfD is a bit shocking. Germany never had a party like that so relevant since probably 45.

The maybe bigger story though is the SPD on a historic low Since they are going opposition (as well as they need to), forming a government will be tough. And the result will be tough for the low-income Germans... Merkel can only reasonably go with liberals and green party, which are not to be mistaken with American liberals or greens. The liberals are the party of the rich, and the green party has become the party of the wealthiest voters as well.

The black-green-yellow alliance btw. is widely called "Jamaica coalition".

LOL FDP represent what we call "classical liberalism."  Lindner says the FDP will only work with the CDU if there is a change in direction, which includes tax cuts and new immigration laws. Just let smart people in.  

Is it your view that with SPD out, a CDU-Green-FDP coalition will start eroding the social net? You say the results will be tough for low-come Germans, but who is voting for the AfD?  They seem to have gained from from former SPD and CDU voters.  Poor and elderly people who would rather kick the Arabs out than keep their social net intact? They are supposed to be the party of the "little people" against the elites, but their leaders are angry lawyers and academics?

[Dill]

(09-25-2017, 02:56 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Good to see AfD getting seats.   Not bad for a party that was only started in 2013.

Looks like they are already splintering a bit though, Lucy.   Petrys stepped down right after their big showing. Just before that, four Landtag representatives from Mecklenburg Vorpommern jumped ship. 

[Belsnickel]

(09-25-2017, 04:27 PM)hollodero Wrote: It might seem an unlikely mix and maybe it is, but yes that's Jamaica. And if SPD indeed wants to be in opposition, there's no other viable alternative. No one goes AfD, and no one goes Linke.

FDP and Grüne might be closer than you think though. Grüne isn't that far left as one might think, and both parties have an above-average wealthy electorate. And both parties have shown that they can act quite pragmatic and compromize (or betray the electorate, however one wants to see it).

And SPD and getting their stuff together, there's only so much voters can forgive. The years of red-green government are still a disappointment to many, as was the CSU-SPD period afterwards. Plus they had strange figures on top in recent years, the party never gained any profile or appeal anymore. Poor Schulz, he came way too late I guess.

I think one of my failings in trying to understand the German politics is not knowing enough of the history. Knowing that would help me out a bit more, it seems.

As for Schulz, as much as I was shouting "Keine Bremsen!", it was more for the party than Schulz himself. Schulz has some great qualities, but if the SPD needed someone more charismatic to really have a chance. Plus, I had some issues with him policy-wise.

[StLucieBengal]

(09-25-2017, 05:26 PM)Dill Wrote: Looks like they are already splintering a bit though, Lucy.   Petrys stepped down right after their big showing. Just before that, four Landtag representatives from Mecklenburg Vorpommern jumped ship. 

I was sad to see Frauke Petry leave but her leaving was simply due to her desire to form a coalition with another party in order to give AfD a chance to have more say. There was a portion of AfD who didn't want to give away any ground on some key issues and Petry just underestimated that portion of the party.

AfD showed well enough that they are forcing themselves into the conversation. Much like National Front has done in France.

[StLucieBengal]

(09-25-2017, 11:03 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Good to see that the reasonable folks prevailed with the majority of the support. I was talking to a sub about this today and he told me he spends half of the year in Prague for his other job, so he goes to Germany a lot. He said Germany has been eerily different since these fringe alt right groups began to pop up.

Europe and ofc Germany has been very different since the Mother of all migrants opened the borders for them to stampede.

[*jason*]

(09-25-2017, 09:33 AM)michaelsean Wrote: When do we get to America on this thread?

Take notes... Perhaps we could have an effective federal government if we had more than two shitty parties.

[StLucieBengal]

(09-25-2017, 09:33 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: The rise of the AfD is definitely interesting. Them having a seat at the table is a big step, but I don't see it progressing much further. When over 80% of the populous doesn't trust the party, it doesn't bode well for growth. That being said, more people trust SPD than CDU/CSU, so take from that what you will. 

As for the SPD, they need to get their shit together. I wish that die Linke, Gruene, and SPD could come together on things, but they just aren't going to be on the same page and so SPD likes to hitch their wagon to the CDU/CSU to have power.

As an aside, who is in the black-green-yellow alliance? My only reference to the representative colors is from Wikipedia (I read about the policies and politics in other places) and those colors would be CDU, Gruene, and FDP according to them. That just seems like an unlikely mix.

The more problems with migrants the more support AfD will get. People won't agree with them on many things but they will eventually say wel at least they will stop the stampede of migrants who are bringing all this violence.

[StLucieBengal]

(09-25-2017, 08:16 PM)jason Wrote: Take notes... Perhaps we could have an effective federal government if we had more than two shitty parties.

So you are ok with leadership being elected with 30% or less of the vote?

That being said ..... two parties isn't the problems. It's the uniparty that is the problem.

[Dill]

(09-25-2017, 08:16 PM)jason Wrote: Take notes... Perhaps we could have an effective federal government if we had more than two shitty parties.

LOL

[BmorePat87]

(09-25-2017, 08:16 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Europe and ofc Germany has been very different since the Mother of all migrants opened the borders for them to stampede.

Yes, the groups he mentioned have come out of the woodworks.