Germans forced out of homes to make room for immigrants

[Vas Deferens]

(10-22-2015, 01:15 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: Not sure if this could be the case here or not, but a lot of countries in Northern Europe have these "squatters rights" type laws. As an example, let's say you have a warehouse building in, say, Copenhagen. It's a building that you haven't used for awhile, but you intend to use again in the future. Technically, it is vacant. While it is sitting vacant, some homeless people move into it and start living there. Now, in the U.S. you would just call the police and have them kicked out for trespassing. Probably even the same day. It is a bit different in Copenhagen, however. Because the people are living in the building, they now have certain rights under the law. You have to go through a long eviction process in the courts. In some places, you cannot evict the people until someone has found a suitable replacement for them to live.

Just reading this story, I have a feeling that may have been the situation with the Germans which were forced out. The German government may have streamlined the eviction process on a property they owned to make room for incoming refugees.

Good insight Zona.  I would assume this is the case.

I've seen this 1st hand with the Romani population in France.  There are large swaths of land they have taken over which cannot be relinquished do to similar laws.  Heard the same thing about refugee camps / slums in Europe today that cannot be taken back, not just for logistic reasons, but because of laws currently in place.

Think you're right Zona.  Germany must have bypassed some of the paperwork in order to accommodate in extreme circumstances.

[Belsnickel]

(10-22-2015, 01:54 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11902296/Second-German-woman-evicted-from-her-home-to-make-way-for-refugees.html

So I guess this is fake as well?

At least that one provides a bit more insight than your first links and shows that there is more to it than the fear mongering sources in the OP. I'm still looking forward to reading some of the German news on this.

[BmorePat87]

"The flat belongs to the local municipality"

It will be interesting to read the terms to her lease, but I do not see the issue if the government owns the property.

[Mike M (the other one)]

I'm concerned that so many of the refugees are men (did they high tail it and leave their women and children behind?), and the raping is out of control.

Why do the German's have to conform to the refugees? The refugees should be thankful for the help they are getting and obeying the laws of the new country they are in.

[Vas Deferens]

(10-22-2015, 06:19 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I'm concerned that so many of the refugees are men (did they high tail it and leave their women and children behind?), and the raping is out of control.

That is what it sounds like.  Most of these refugees came over via boat.  Looks like the refugee camps back in their homeland are mostly comprised of women and children at this point unfortunately.

Quote:Donald Trump: Syrian refugees potentially headed to U.S. are mostly men

...
The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees registers and tracks Syrian refugees in camps spread over several nations, including Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq and North African countries. According to numbers we accessed on Oct. 4, the total comes to more than 4 million.

Of those 4 million, 50.3 percent are female, and 51.1 percent are children (boys and girls) 17 years old or younger. In all, only 23.5 percent of refugees across the Middle East and North Africa being counted by the U.N. were men older than 18
...

 
I really think the raping piece is fear mongering for the most part.  Can't find as much on that topic.

(10-22-2015, 06:19 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Why do the German's have to conform to the refugees? 

Doesn't seem like there is a whole lot Germany can do at this point.  Rounding them up and sending them home is a logistical nightmare and has to be a sensitive issue in Germany.  

Would be nice to have UAE step in and help some refugees on their land, relieve some of the pressure from Europe.

[StLucieBengal]

(10-22-2015, 04:48 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: "The flat belongs to the local municipality"

It will be interesting to read the terms to her lease, but I do not see the issue if the government owns the property.

I doubt her lease says they can throw her out with zero notice.

[StLucieBengal]

(10-22-2015, 03:23 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: At least that one provides a bit more insight than your first links and shows that there is more to it than the fear mongering sources in the OP. I'm still looking forward to reading some of the German news on this.

I have seen stories on this for a while now. Just finally decided to post on the matter.

[StLucieBengal]

(10-22-2015, 06:19 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I'm concerned that so many of the refugees are men (did they high tail it and leave their women and children behind?), and the raping is out of control.

Why do the German's have to conform to the refugees? The refugees should be thankful for the help they are getting and obeying the laws of the new country they are in.

Germans should not be made to suffer to cater to refugees. It's bad enough they are taking over the 4 star hotels and complaining about there not being enough entertainment.

[Bengalzona]

(10-22-2015, 04:48 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: "The flat belongs to the local municipality"

It will be interesting to read the terms to her lease, but I do not see the issue if the government owns the property.

Most probably it was designated for temporary housing and she has been there for several decades.

Germans, as a people, have a reputation for being quite serious about their rules and laws and work ethic. They also have a reputation for getting very angry at people who try to get over on "the system".

[Belsnickel]

(10-22-2015, 07:10 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I have seen stories on this for a while now. Just finally decided to post on the matter.

Interestingly enough, I went to the website for the newspaper referenced in the Telegraph write-up and could not find any article about it.

[GMDino]

(10-22-2015, 07:12 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Germans should not be made to suffer to cater to refugees.   It's bad enough they are taking over the 4 star hotels and complaining about there not being enough entertainment.

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-09-09/why-germany-welcomes-refugees

Quote:The phrase "German moral leadership" may sound strange to many ears, what with the role the country played in two world wars and more recent indignation over the tough stance it took towards Greece's debt woes. Yet anyone witnessing how the nation has responded to this summer's flood of refugees would have to acknowledge that leadership as a fact.


Why such a transformation has taken place is a tough question to answer, not least because as recently as the 1990s, Germany responded in a far less heroic way to the wave of refugees who fled the war in former Yugoslavia.

Back then, Frank Diettrich would have been far from typical. He spends his time as an unpaid volunteer, handing out plastic cups of water to young olive-skinned men at the edge of a trampled lawn, where refugees arriving in Berlin wait to register at a dedicated office.
"I just sat on the couch and watched TV" before, says Diettrich, who sold his small business last year. "We can see the government is having problems handling the situation around here, so it's up to us to help."

The lawn is an encampment. Hundreds of people are sit around, lying under trees in sleeping bags, huddling in a couple of large tents, guarding beaten-up luggage or kicking soccer balls around. To get in, one has to line up from the wee hours of the morning. The registration process takes more than a week, so people keep coming back. Between January and July, Germany accepted 218,221 asylum applications, more than in any full year since 1994. The 1992 record of 438,191 applications will probably be overtaken this year. 

The Facebook page whose request for help got Diettrich off his couch belongs to a group called Moabit Hilft, dedicated to welcoming refugees to the area. Local shops have signs in their windows saying they collect money for the organization.

The Facebook group has almost 11,000 members. This is nothing out of the ordinary in today's Germany: a lot of people want to lend a hand. Chancellor Angela Merkel has all but guaranteed that Syrian refugees fleeing the war in their country will be accepted, and they are responding to the call.

Ordinary Germans have backed the government, turning out to do their bit where the thorough and slow-moving bureaucracy fails to resolve bottlenecks. According to a recent opinion poll commissioned by the TV channel ARD-DeutschlandTrend, 88 percent of Germans have donated clothes or money to refugees or are planning to do so. 

The same poll showed that 38 percent of Germans (a higher percentage in former East Germany) worry there are too many refugees coming in. Yet that doesn't mean some of those people aren't sympathetic or willing to help. Here and there, extreme right activists have set refugee hostels on fire and dark-skinned people have been attacked on the street. But any attempts at open agitation against refugees are meeting resistance.

On Wednesday, a rally of the far-right NPD party was scheduled for noon in front of the Berlin registration office. Local volunteers warned the refugees to stay on the lawn, and police massed in the vicinity, putting up barriers and keeping riot helmets at the ready. Half an hour after the announced time, it became clear that only a handful of the nationalists would show. Using a loudspeaker mounted on a truck, they shouted insults at "fake refugees," but were drowned out by about 200 anti-Nazi protesters, who screamed "Go away" and chanted: "Say it loud, say it clear, refugees are welcome here."

"It didn't used to be like this," says Harald Gloede, a board member at Borderline Europe, a nongovernmental organization that collects and disseminates information about the European refugee crisis. "I think even the government is surprised people are so welcoming. In the '90s, when the right wing burned down refugee camps, a lot of ordinary people applauded them."


In 1993, that sentiment resulted in a change to Article 16 of the German constitution, which had guaranteed an absolute right of asylum. The new version cuts off applicants from countries deemed by the German authorities to be "safe," and requires asylum seekers to prove they have been persecuted. After those amendments came into effect, the inflow of refugees started drying up. Yet when growing instability around the world increased it again, Germans were ready: This time it was they who had changed.

Asked to explain the new attitude, German academics often mention the country's history. "German citizens know that the regulations of the Geneva Refugee Convention stem from the historical experience with Jewish refugees fleeing the Holocaust," says Petra Bendel of the Central Institute for Regional Research at Erlangen, in Bavaria. "Also, after World War II, many Germans were refugees themselves." It may seem hard to believe that history lessons trumped by xenophobia in the 1990s have finally sunk in, but that's the consensus.

It appears to have taken a three-pronged attack from government, civil society and the media to get German sentiment to where it is today.
In 1999, the authorities adopted a law granting automatic citizenship to the children of migrants born on German soil, and in 2005 immigration rules as a whole were softened and simplified. In addition, for the last 10 years successive governments have worked to educate voters about immigration.

"Germany's conservatives do not play the race card like in France or Britain," says Dietrich Thraenhardt of Muenster University. "Anti-immigrant positions like those of [U.K. Prime Minister David] Cameron or [former French President Nicolas] Sarkozy would be considered extremist in Germany. Merkel never used immigration as a controversial issue."

Neighborhood activists -- a numerous group in Germany -- gained experience working with immigrants. "The constantly rising influx of immigrants brought a broad willingness to assist refugees to the fore," says Stephan Duennwald of the Bavarian Council for Refugees, which unites various volunteer groups. "Around many refugee camps and housing, local volunteers gathered in groups to offer language classes and assistance in dealing with authorities or medical services."

Finally, the German press -- even the tabloid kind -- has been sympathetic, in stark contrast to some other countries. Bild, the country's most popular tabloid, known for its hardline stance on aid to Greece, now publishes information sheets in Arabic for refugees. Asylum seekers outside the registration office were snapping them up on Wednesday.

"We had 12 million German expellees after World War II, 3.5 million 'guest workers' and millions of refugees, but Germany's status as a country of immigration has always been denied," says Olaf Kleist of the Institute for Migration Research and Intercultural Studies at the University of Osnabrueck. Now, for all of the above reasons, Germans accept that they live in a cosmopolitan country.

There's an economic side to this, too, says Kleist: "Germany's economic strength, a demographic decline and the need for labor all contribute to the welcoming of migrants including refugees." Indeed, one reason the refugee influx is fine with German voters is that Merkel insists the country will still balance its budget without new debt, and that taxes won't need to be raised to deal with the refugee crisis.

It's hard to say, however, whether the German change of heart is permanent and based on entrenched values, as Merkel insists. Duennwald points out that although there is a lot of sympathy for "true" refugees from Syria -- that they're fleeing war makes sense -- Germans have little time for "bogus" asylum seekers from the Balkans, who include many Roma.

Indeed, if the current charitable sentiment lasts, it may be because Germans have become keenly aware of the leadership role their country has taken in Europe lately. Germany, says Gloede of Borderline Europe, has become "the focus of international attention, it says what has to be done and is therefore obliged to be the first to do something."

This resolve of Germans to give refugees the best welcome they can isn't just an example. It's a challenge to the rest of Europe, and even to the U.S.: Come on, match this if you can.

[StLucieBengal]

(10-22-2015, 09:30 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Interestingly enough, I went to the website for the newspaper referenced in the Telegraph write-up and could not find any article about it.

Will make sure I post on this subject more often then.

[BmorePat87]

(10-22-2015, 07:08 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I doubt her lease says they can throw her out with zero notice.

Your link said she had 2 months notice...

[StLucieBengal]

(10-22-2015, 10:20 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Your link said she had 2 months notice...

The German tenants federation seems to think they shouldn't have lost their home.

So I guess you are ok if we start booting poor people out of their gov housing to make room for refugees? How do you think this will go over In this country?

[StLucieBengal]

(10-22-2015, 09:40 PM)GMDino Wrote: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-09-09/why-germany-welcomes-refugees

Nice article. And I agree German people are compassionate. There is plenty of room for compassion these days . However this refugee situation, people losing their homes, being forced to take in refugees as borders.... This will do nothing but stoke the anti immigrant/pro German fires. This is the first step to electing gov officials who will protect the German people.

France is almost there, their elections next year will be interesting.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-22-2015, 09:40 PM)GMDino Wrote: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-09-09/why-germany-welcomes-refugees


The phrase "German moral leadership" may sound strange to many ears, what with the role the country played in two world wars and more recent indignation over the tough stance it took towards Greece's debt woes.

I know you didn't write this GMD, but this kind of stuff pisses me off.  How was Germany any more responsible than any other nation for WW1?  Lazy, shitty journalism and lack of historical knowledge.  It chaps my ass.

[StLucieBengal]

(10-22-2015, 11:46 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I know you didn't write this GMD, but this kind of stuff pisses me off.  How was Germany any more responsible than any other nation for WW1?  Lazy, shitty journalism and lack of historical knowledge.  It chaps my ass.

Agreed. I think Germany is being guilted into taking the refugees because they are concerned of this being brought up. Especially considering the rest of Europes position on taking them.

[Bengalzona]

(10-22-2015, 10:53 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Nice article.   And I agree German people are compassionate.   There is plenty of room for compassion these days .  However this refugee situation, people losing their homes, being forced to take in refugees as borders....  This will do nothing but stoke the anti immigrant/pro German fires.    This is the first step to electing gov officials who will protect the German people.  

France is almost there, their elections next year will be interesting.

I just came back from spending a weekend in Brussels, Belgium. The atmosphere there is not very good. There is a great deal of anger towards Muslims. But their sentiments are complex and their criticisms of Islam do not conform to our feelings about Muslims (note: there are also a lot of anti-U.S. and anti-Semitic sentiments there as well).

Brussels is the capital of the EU. Approximately 25% of the people in the city are Muslims. The Muslims moved there in the 1950's and 60's, when jobs were more plentiful. They were made full citizens. The initial immigrants settled in some of the poorer areas of the city and insulated themselves from the rest of the population. While they didn't fully integrate into society, they were not trouble makers and the society was peaceful. When the second generation of Muslims (the sons and daughters of the first generation) came of age in the 70's and 80's, jobs were drying up and harder to come by. Now, the third generation is of age and there is widespread unemployment among the Muslim youth there. Their families still live in the same tenement buildings and areas they inhabited when they first came to Europe. So the young people, especially the young men have no jobs and nothing to do all day. Many have tuned into Islamic radicals through the internet and have come to blame Western Society for their problems. Hundreds have gone off to Syria to join ISIS. The ones who have stayed lash out against society with vandalism and violence. In some areas of Brussels, you don't see just one or two police officers walking the beat. You see groups of five or six, often with one or two more groups very close by for support.

I would describe the Muslim situation in Brussels as more akin to how many white Americans felt about blacks in the U.S. back in the sixties. Probably more similar to the situation in Los Angeles or other major cities around the time rioting broke out. But a major difference was that white people back in the sixties had some idea why blacks might be resentful and angry. The people in Belgium don't feel they should have similar regret and shame about how they have treated Muslims in the past. When the Muslims wanted to come, they allowed them and even made them citizens. When there were jobs, they welcomed them into the workplace. They never forced the Muslims to live in poorer areas and when individual Muslims wanted to leave their insular communities, they were welcomed into society. The people in Belgium generally feel that the young Muslims in their country are being riled up by outside agitators (which they are). And they generally resent Americans because they feel our wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have exacerbated the situation. They have a similar sentiment about Jewish people because they feel the Israeli-Palestinian problems have also made the situation worse.

The refugee situation has not helped the situation there. Like most other Europeans, the people in Belgium do not want the refugees to come there. They feel the refugees will rile up the Muslim youth in Belgium even more.

[BmorePat87]

(10-22-2015, 10:47 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The German tenants federation seems to think they shouldn't have lost their home.  

So I guess you are ok if we start booting poor people out of their gov housing to make room for refugees? How do you think this will go over In this country?

I wouldn't agree with the policy decision, but it's their building. If her lease doesn't prevent this then it sucks to be her. That's a risk with living in a government owned building.

If she lived in a privately owned apartment and her landlord gave her 2 months notice to leave because they found new tenants, what would your response be?

[StLucieBengal]

(10-23-2015, 06:49 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I wouldn't agree with the policy decision, but it's their building. If her lease doesn't prevent this then it sucks to be her. That's a risk with living in a government owned building.

If she lived in a privately owned apartment and her landlord gave her 2 months notice to leave because they found new tenants, what would your response be?

Would depend on the conditions of her lease. But I am quite sure based on the fact it's being reported as news that she was not month to month.