Good Nazis?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

For many many years I had believed that there were no "Good" nazis and to this day I still believe there are or were no "Good" nazis.

Corrie ten Boom had said that nazi soldiers had brought Jewish children to her to hide and escape to unoccupied countries.

Does that mean there were "Good" nazis out there?
Were these soldiers just trying to make themselves look good because they knew the war was lost?

I tend to believe the later.

Take the story about Wladyslaw Szpilman and how close to the end of the war a nazi officer helped him to survive until the end of the war. This nazi officer was marched into Russia after the war never to be heard from again although Szpilman did try to find him and save him. This nazi officer was trying to save his own neck in my opinion.

What about the story "The Boy In The Striped Pajamas" and how it tried to build sympathy for this young German boy who was accidentally killed in a gas chamber? I felt no empathy for the family or the boy even though this boy was innocent. Just like in "The Book Thief" when the girls family was killed in a bombing raid. Were they innocent?

I just do not believe there were "Good" nazis.

[GMDino]

(01-12-2019, 10:02 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: For many many years I had believed that there were no "Good" nazis and to this day I still believe there are or were no "Good" nazis.

Corrie ten Boom had said that nazi soldiers had brought Jewish children to her to hide and escape to unoccupied countries.

Does that mean there were "Good" nazis out there?
Were these soldiers just trying to make themselves look good because they knew the war was lost?

I tend to believe the later.

Take the story about Wladyslaw Szpilman and how close to the end of the war a nazi officer helped him to survive until the end of the war. This nazi officer was marched into Russia after the war never to be heard from again although Szpilman did try to find him and save him. This nazi officer was trying to save his own neck in my opinion.

What about the story "The Boy In The Striped Pajamas" and how it tried to build sympathy for this young German boy who was accidentally killed in a gas chamber? I felt no empathy for the family or the boy even though this boy was innocent. Just like in "The Book Thief" when the girls family was killed in a bombing raid. Were they innocent?

I just do not believe there were "Good" nazis.

The people who were Nazis who worked to help the Jewish people were probably more like the french underground and the resistance.  They used the cover of their being Nazis to actually do good things.

The Nazis were those who didn't do the good things.

[BmorePat87]

(01-12-2019, 11:36 AM)GMDino Wrote: The people who were Nazis who worked to help the Jewish people were probably more like the french underground and the resistance.  They used the cover of their being Nazis to actually do good things.

The Nazis were those who didn't do the good things.

On top of this, there were people conscripted into the German army, some from annexed territories who weren't really German but declared German. There were certainly people who had no choice in being enlisted and did not agree with the final solution, so they risked their lives to save people. But as Dino is saying, they wouldn't be considered "Nazis" in the same sense that we call people who believe in that ideology a "Nazi".

[Dill]

(01-12-2019, 10:02 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: For many many years I had believed that there were no "Good" nazis and to this day I still believe there are or were no "Good" nazis.

Corrie ten Boom had said that nazi soldiers had brought Jewish children to her to hide and escape to unoccupied countries.

Does that mean there were "Good" nazis out there?
Were these soldiers just trying to make themselves look good because they knew the war was lost?

I tend to believe the later.

I just do not believe there were "Good" nazis.

You use the term "nazi soldiers" a bit too loosely here. German soldiers were not always Nazi.  Many were not.  And some could not have been thinking to "make themselves look good" because they feared being on the losing side. Anton Schmid was executed for helping Jews in 1941, when the Nazis were advancing.  At least one "real" Nazi, Karl Plagge, was honored by the State of Israel in 2005 for his efforts to save Jewish lives. 

As for whether Nazis could be good--you might have to distinguish between people who were TRUE BELIEVERS and those who, like some of today's Trump supporters, set aside the misogyny and racism in favor of "accomplishments" they thought were in the national interest. (This is analogy, not equivalence. Hitler's racism was more pronounced, and required a much bigger set aside.)

My candidate for a good Nazi party MEMBER, at least, would be John Rabe, the guy who organized shelter for some 200,000 Chinese during the Rape of Nanking.  When he returned to Germany and tried to inform the German people of the horrors, he was arrested, interrogated, and after release forbidden to speak on the topic.   The Chinese raised a humanitarian monument to him after the war. 

So, yes, good people on both sides 

(No idea what he thought about Jews, though.)

[*michaelsean*]

Not if they are from Illinois. But everyone pretty much said what I would. Not every German soldier was a true believer final solution Nazi.

[Belsnickel]

People are not "good" or "bad". They take actions that are good or bad. Trying to evaluate someone's status as either good or bad is a folly as it is entirely subjective and based on a number of different types of actions that have varying degrees of goodness or badness, and that can be direct or indirect, and is also influenced by motivation. This is just how I view it (though there are probably some famous philosophers that put this in a much more complicated way and wrote tomes on it).

Nazis were (are, I guess, since we have modern day Nazis) capable of doing good things. Whether that makes them good people depends on your view.

[Millhouse]

(01-12-2019, 06:34 PM)Dill Wrote: You use the term "nazi soldiers" a bit too loosely here. German soldiers were not always Nazi.  Many were not.  And some could not have been thinking to "make themselves look good" because they feared being on the losing side. Anton Schmid was executed for helping Jews in 1941, when the Nazis were advancing.  At least one "real" Nazi, Karl Plagge, was honored by the State of Israel in 2005 for his efforts to save Jewish lives. 

As for whether Nazis could be good--you might have to distinguish between people who were TRUE BELIEVERS and those who, like some of today's Trump supporters, set aside the misogyny and racism in favor of "accomplishments" they thought were in the national interest. (This is analogy, not equivalence. Hitler's racism was more pronounced, and required a much bigger set aside.)

My candidate for a good Nazi party MEMBER, at least, would be John Rabe, the guy who organized shelter for some 200,000 Chinese during the Rape of Nanking.  When he returned to Germany and tried to inform the German people of the horrors, he was arrested, interrogated, and after release forbidden to speak on the topic.   The Chinese raised a humanitarian monument to him after the war. 

So, yes, good people on both sides 

(No idea what he thought about Jews, though.)

Yeah there definitely needs to be distinction to this discussion when discussing the German military in WW2. Their main military was predominately the Wehrmacht, which was their regular army, air force, etc. For the most part, they didn't commit the atrocities, although there were war crimes committed in Russia and eastern/southern Europe areas.

The other wing of the military was the Waffen SS, the military arm of the SS. Now these were the ones that would go in with or after the Wehrmach and commit the majority of the war crimes against civilians.

Now was there good Nazis? Umm there were definitely Nazi's, especially high up, that did not agree with the extermination of the Jewish people and others. Although they were anti-Semitic, they wanted them deported out of Germany and Europe in general. But were not as fanatically evil as others high up like Heydrich, Eichman, Himmler and of course Hitler. Of course the latter ones prevailed.

There were other official Nazi members like Schindler, who did what he could to save 1200 Jews from going to a death camp.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(01-14-2019, 02:23 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Yeah there definitely needs to be distinction to this discussion when discussing the German military in WW2. Their main military was predominately the Wehrmacht, which was their regular army, air force, etc. For the most part, they didn't commit the atrocities, although there were war crimes committed in Russia and eastern/southern Europe areas.

The other wing of the military was the Waffen SS, the military arm of the SS. Now these were the ones that would go in with or after the Wehrmach and commit the majority of the war crimes against civilians.

Now was there good Nazis? Umm there were definitely Nazi's, especially high up, that did not agree with the extermination of the Jewish people and others. Although they were anti-Semitic, they wanted them deported out of Germany and Europe in general. But were not as fanatically evil as others high up like Heydrich, Eichman, Himmler and of course Hitler. Of course the latter ones prevailed.

There were other official Nazi members like Schindler, who did what he could to save 1200 Jews from going to a death camp.

Some well stated points made in this thread.  I'd add that a German soldier in WW2 is not synonymous to a Nazi.  No more than a soldier in the US military is necessarily affiliated with the political party of the CnC.  At its height, in 1945 the Nazi party had 8.5 million members.  This is out of a total population of around 65 million people.  The standard German soldier in WW2 was no more or less evil or good than any other human being on the planet.  In fact, and especially for a conscript army, the German soldier in WW2 was remarkably well behaved.  Very minimal looting, rape or murder.  Not only that but anyone caught engaging in such behavior was severely punished.

The German political leadership from 1933 to 1945 deserves nothing but scorn.  The standard German soldier during the same period deserves respect as a professional and challenging opponent.  

I found it interesting that we've had a film in "Letters from Iwo Jima" that humanized the Japanese soldier, but nothing in the same vein for the German soldier.  This is especially interesting as the Japanese soldier was much more routinely involved in war crimes.  There is nothing remotely comparable to the rape of Nanking by the German military.  For anyone interested in a fantastic (albeit controversial) book on that very subject read The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer.

https://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Soldier-Guy-Sajer/dp/1574882864/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1547501545&sr=8-1&keywords=the+forgotten+soldier

[Dill]

(01-14-2019, 02:23 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Yeah there definitely needs to be distinction to this discussion when discussing the German military in WW2. Their main military was predominately the Wehrmacht, which was their regular army, air force, etc. For the most part, they didn't commit the atrocities, although there were war crimes committed in Russia and eastern/southern Europe areas.

The other wing of the military was the Waffen SS, the military arm of the SS. Now these were the ones that would go in with or after the Wehrmach and commit the majority of the war crimes against civilians.

Now was there good Nazis? Umm there were definitely Nazi's, especially high up, that did not agree with the extermination of the Jewish people and others. Although they were anti-Semitic, they wanted them deported out of Germany and Europe in general. But were not as fanatically evil as others high up like Heydrich, Eichman, Himmler and of course Hitler. Of course the latter ones prevailed.

There were other official Nazi members like Schindler, who did what he could to save 1200 Jews from going to a death camp.

LOL that is a low bar for "good"!

One reason why people may be reluctant to look for "good" Nazis is that to be a believer, not just someone hoping for a job or some other advancement, one had to subscribe to the general hatred of "non-Aryan" immigrants and Jews who were citizens. Nazism was also an identity movement for white males. Misogynistic. Still is. 

So if you are a liberal or social democrat, it will be hard to find any Nazis good, just as it would be hard to find a good Klan member. Imagine a KKK member who attends rallies because he endorses the Klan's support for traditional protestant morality -- just doesn't agree with the Klan on race/gender politics.