(08-16-2018, 02:55 PM)Benton Wrote: Because if they took a knee on third and long, they'd get fired.
Where else would they have an opportunity to protest and it draw attention to the issue? You can't do it during the game without it impacting the game. And after or before, probably just flip to commercials. Off the field? Nobody would see it.
Yes, because 3rd and long is the only other place or time a famous football player can kneel, raise a fist or bring awareness.
I think NBA players have shown how you can raise awareness without kneeling for the Anthem. Pretending that's their only option is kinda silly.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(08-16-2018, 04:42 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yes, because 3rd and long is the only other place or time a famous football player can kneel, raise a fist or bring awareness.
I think NBA players have shown how you can raise awareness without kneeling for the Anthem. Pretending that's their only option is kinda silly.
At this point there's really only one reason folks are kneeling; it's because they were told not to. Any message trying to be conveyed has long since passed.
(08-16-2018, 04:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: At this point there's really only one reason folks are kneeling; it's because they were told not to. Any message trying to be conveyed has long since passed.
You're getting warmer.
the kneeling would have passed as people talked about the issue...but your boy, he just can't NOT be the center of attention. And BOY does he know how to rile up his base!
So when his base (you) started getting ANGRY over the kneeling (and pretending there was no message behind it) it INSPIRED the people protesting to join together and prove they could be SOB'd into stopping.
"Ignore the Nazi's and they'll go away" they say. "Scream at the kneelers until they go away" they also say.
Weird world.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(08-16-2018, 04:42 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yes, because 3rd and long is the only other place or time a famous football player can kneel, raise a fist or bring awareness.
I think NBA players have shown how you can raise awareness without kneeling for the Anthem. Pretending that's their only option is kinda silly.
The NBA already had a rule you couldn't kneel.
The only thing I know of them doing is the warm up "I can't breath" shirts. Which, still, violates the NFL uniform policy.
(08-16-2018, 04:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: At this point there's really only one reason folks are kneeling; it's because they were told not to. Any message trying to be conveyed has long since passed.
Which is why the whole issue morphed from "Why are those guys kneeling" to "who are those guys kneeling."
(08-16-2018, 01:34 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Why did they choose the Anthem for their stage? If you don't believe it had something to do with the uproar it'd cause, you're not being honest.
Now why would it cause an uproar? The answer is that it is viewed as a disrespectful act.
There has never been a protest ever that was not intended to cause an uproar. That is the point of protest.
But it was never intended to be disrespectful to the military. It was simply a statement that the United States has problems that need to be fixed. Same exact message that Donald Trump used every day in his campaign.
The people who opposed the kneeling knew they could not disagree with the actual issue the players were bringing up so instead they tried to twist it as an attack on the military.
(08-16-2018, 04:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: At this point there's really only one reason folks are kneeling; it's because they were told not to. Any message trying to be conveyed has long since passed.
It certainly seems to be all about sticking it to Trump and/or NFL ownership at this point.
(08-16-2018, 05:55 PM)Benton Wrote: The NBA already had a rule you couldn't kneel.
The only thing I know of them doing is the warm up "I can't breath" shirts. Which, still, violates the NFL uniform policy.
Which is why the whole issue morphed from "Why are those guys kneeling" to "who are those guys kneeling."
Whether or not the NBA had an existing rule is besides the point. They've found ways to express their views. Aside from the shirts, they also made a statement at the Espy awards, and they've spoken out via Twitter and the media in general.
Trust me, I'm well aware of how LeBron, Wade, the entire Warriors team and Greg Popovich feel about Trump and various social issues, and never have those people used the Anthem as a platform.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(08-16-2018, 07:36 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It certainly seems to be all about sticking it to Trump and/or NFL ownership at this point.
Whether or not the NBA had an existing rule is besides the point. They've found ways to express their views. Aside from the shirts, they also made a statement at the Espy awards, and they've spoken out via Twitter and the media in general.
Trust me, I'm well aware of how LeBron, Wade, the entire Warriors team and Greg Popovich feel about Trump and various social issues, and never have those people used the Anthem as a platform.
I don’t watch the nba, so I haven’t heard of most of that. I saw the shirts during a clip of it on espn at the gym.
And the rules are the point. The nba had rules that prevented some form of protest, so the players found another method (shirts, espy awards, etc). The nfl had different rules that prevented other forms of protest (jerseys, locker rooms etc). They were finding ways to express themselves within the rules.
(08-16-2018, 06:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There has never been a protest ever that was not intended to cause an uproar. That is the point of protest.
But it was never intended to be disrespectful to the military. It was simply a statement that the United States has problems that need to be fixed. Same exact message that Donald Trump used every day in his campaign.
The people who opposed the kneeling knew they could not disagree with the actual issue the players were bringing up so instead they tried to twist it as an attack on the military.
I agree the original intention was not to disrespect the Military. But it does.
Now let's delve into Fred Logic:
Fred: I don't like the fact that they use cubed ice instead of crushed ice at McDonalds, some I'm going to pull out my peepee every time I order a happy meal
Sane Person: Fred, it is not proper decorum to pull your peepee out at McDonalds
Fred: You just can't disagree with the actual issue so you try to twist it into some obscene act.
(08-16-2018, 08:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I agree the original intention was not to disrespect the Military. But it does.
Now let's delve into Fred Logic:
Fred: I don't like the fact that they use cubed ice instead of crushed ice at McDonalds, some I'm going to pull out my peepee every time I order a happy meal
Sane Person: Fred, it is not proper decorum to pull your peepee out at McDonalds
Fred: You just can't disagree with the actual issue so you try to twist it into some obscene act.
Yes because breaking the law is the same as kneeling in respect versus standing.
As you friend is prone to say: Hyperbole much?
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(08-16-2018, 07:53 PM)Benton Wrote: I don’t watch the nba, so I haven’t heard of most of that. I saw the shirts during a clip of it on espn at the gym.
And the rules are the point. The nba had rules that prevented some form of protest, so the players found another method (shirts, espy awards, etc). The nfl had different rules that prevented other forms of protest (jerseys, locker rooms etc). They were finding ways to express themselves within the rules.
The NFL doesn't have rules against speaking out on social issues via social media, interviews or giving a message at the Espy's.
That's how I'm aware of the opinions of those NBA players and coaches.
So again, I'm not sure how you think NFL players are forced to use the Anthem to be heard.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(08-16-2018, 09:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So they kneel to show respect?
I believe that's a new one. But I'll let folks know you should kneel to show respect when the Anthem is played.
Yep, that hyperbole is a funny thing.
You get so caught up in stuff.
Kneeling was remaining respectful while also drawing attention to their cause. They weren't running around screaming, or waving their privates as your OR SO clever fantasy example suggests or ANYTHING to distract ANYONE from the anthem.
Just because you don't believe there IS a problem you want to slam the messenger and how they present it.
Anything they would do you would think is disrespectful. Anything except doing what you want them to do.
And anything anyone ELSE does that isn't exactly as you prescribe one should act during the anthem is ignored as long as they aren't trying to bring attention to something. Being lazy, slobbish and boring during the anthem is all fine and dandy...just don't bother bfine with any alleged problems in the US of A!
You have ignored the reason for the protest and continue to ride the high horse of "patriotism". To the point of disregarding your fellow veterans who think the opposite of you.
Sad.
You just can't ignore them (as you say we should the Nazis walking down the street chanting racist slogans).
Reminds me of something....
NSFW one dirty word.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(08-16-2018, 10:18 PM)GMDino Wrote: You get so caught up in stuff.
Kneeling was remaining respectful while also drawing attention to their cause. They weren't running around screaming, or waving their privates as your OR SO clever fantasy example suggests or ANYTHING to distract ANYONE from the anthem.
Just because you don't believe there IS a problem you want to slam the messenger and how they present it.
Anything they would do you would think is disrespectful. Anything except doing what you want them to do.
And anything anyone ELSE does that isn't exactly as you prescribe one should act during the anthem is ignored as long as they aren't trying to bring attention to something. Being lazy, slobbish and boring during the anthem is all fine and dandy...just don't bother bfine with any alleged problems in the US of A!
You have ignored the reason for the protest and continue to ride the high horse of "patriotism". To the point of disregarding your fellow veterans who think the opposite of you.
Sad.
You just can't ignore them (as you say we should the Nazis walking down the street chanting racist slogans).
(08-16-2018, 09:17 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The NFL doesn't have rules against speaking out on social issues via social media, interviews or giving a message at the Espy's. That's how I'm aware of the opinions of those NBA players and coaches.
So again, I'm not sure how you think NFL players are forced to use the Anthem to be heard.
To the bold: Good on you, I don't watch them.
And that's the point. A protest that no one knows about isn't a protest. I don't keep up with the NBA, so I know little to nothing about what you're talking about. But even a tennis fan who knows jack about football has heard about the anthem protest.
That's the point.
If I sit in my garage and refuse to take out the garbage, I'm not protesting anything. I'm taking little to no risk in my desire to bring attention to the issue of taking out garbage. And, outside of the squirrels in my attic, no one is going to know about my shenanigans. But if I tell my wife I'm skipping the family vacation because of my turn on garbage duty? Then I'm taking a risk.
Personally, I don't like the kneeling. I attend 2-3 public (city council, fiscal courts, etc) meetings a week that start with the pledge. As much as I disagree with what happens nationally, I say it every single meeting. But I respect the choice those players made in protesting in a way that was supposed to draw attention to a social issue, instead of taking a safer route.
And I don't think I said they were forced to use the anthem. I do believe they are very limited due to NFL rules on ways they could protest that would have any impact. As someone in the media, if I interview a player about a football game and he starts lobbing police violence statistics, I'm cutting that content. Why? Cause that's the job. Not because the media is evil or good or whatever, but if a reporter is supposed to get a story about a game or a season or whatever, and a player starts going off track, you aren't going to talk to that player again.
So, could players use an awards ceremony to discuss racial problems? Sure. And they would get just as ignored as standing on a corner and shouting the end is nigh.
(08-16-2018, 08:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I agree the original intention was not to disrespect the Military. But it does.
No it doesn't.
The military does not own the flag. The flag stands for the country not the military. The military fights for our country not our flag.
The statemnt the players are makiung about problems in our country are no worse than the statement Trump made about problems in our country.
The NFL players never said a single bad thing about the military. In fact they specifically said they had not problem with the military.
The problem is that some snowflakes in the military think the flag is a symbol of them instead of the country. Well get a clue, when people salute the flag they are saluting the country not the military.
(08-17-2018, 10:48 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No it doesn't.
The military does not own the flag. The flag stands for the country not the military. The military fights for our country not our flag.
The statemnt the players are makiung about problems in our country are no worse than the statement Trump made about problems in our country.
The NFL players never said a single bad thing about the military. In fact they specifically said they had not problem with the military.
The problem is that some snowflakes in the military think the flag is a symbol of them instead of the country. Well get a clue, when people salute the flag they are saluting the country not the military.
Why did the tradition of playing the National Anthem start at ball games?
I agree that they don't have a problem with the military. I do not know how many more times I can type that. But purposely not rendering honor when asked to is disrespectful. I don't know how anyone can see it as any different.
The left wants to have it all their way:
The can kneel
Their employer cannot tell them not to kneel
They can fail to show respect but not be considered disrespectful
As for me: I agree with the first one.
BTW, you lefties need to have a conference. Some say it's not disrespectful, some say it is disrespectful, but just disrespectful to the things they want it to be.
(08-17-2018, 11:18 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I do not know how many more times I can type that. But purposely not rendering honor when asked to is disrespectful. I don't know how anyone can see it as any different.
Because they aren't in the military.
The flag is a symbol of the US, not a symbol of the US military. Each branch has a flag and their own symbology.
I think that's part of the inherent differences in the disagreements over kneeling. Many see the flag as a symbol of the military; others see it as a symbol of the country.
Quote:“The earliest documented performance [of ‘The Star-Spangled Banner’ at a baseball game] occurred on May 15, 1862, during the opening game played at Union Base Ball and Cricket Grounds in Brooklyn, New York,” Marc Ferris writes in Star-Spangled Banner: The Unlikely Story of America’s National Anthem. But as he later explained to NPR, hiring a band was a big enough cost that the anthem was saved for “special occasions” like opening day.
One famous example of this kind of special occasion was the first game of the World Series on Sept. 5, 1918.
Americans were so rattled by World War I that the game “almost didn’t happen,” according to the World War I Centennial Commission. “Out of respect for the soldiers, baseball officials wanted to cancel the World Series between the Boston Red Sox and the Chicago Cubs. When it became known, however, that American soldiers fighting in France were eager to know the Series’ results, the games commenced.” (On a more local level, Chicagoans were particularly on edge after a bombing at a federal building that housed a post office left four dead, with many suspecting that labor activists were behind it at a time when anti-union sentiment was high.)
Red Sox third baseman and furloughed U.S. Navy sailor Fred Thomas’ rendition of “The Star-Spangled Banner” was so moving that the New York Times led its recap of the game not with a rundown of the athletes’ performance, but rather with an assessment of Thomas’s performance:
Far different from any incident that has ever occurred in the history of baseball was the great moment of the first world’s series game between the Chicago Cubs and the Red Sox, which came at Comisky Park this afternoon during the seventh-inning stretch. As the crowd of 19,274 spectators…stood up to take their afternoon yawn…the band broke forth to the strains of “The Star-Spangled Banner.”
The yawn was checked and heads were bared as the ball players turned quickly about and faced the music. Jackie Fred Thomas of the U.S. Navy was at attention, as the stood erect, with his eyes set on the flag fluttering at the top of the lofty pole in right field. First the song was taken up by a few, then others joined, and when the final notes came, a great volume of melody rolled across the field. It was at the very end that the onlookers exploded into thunderous applause and rent the air with a cheer that marked the highest point of the day’s enthusiasm.
The mind of the baseball fan was on the war. The patriotic outburst following the singing of the national anthem was far greater than the upheaval of emotion which greeted Babe Ruth, the Boston southpaw, when he conquered Hippo Him Vaughn and the Cubs in a seething flinging duel by a score of 1 to 0.
However, while the Times referred to the song as the national anthem, that was not technically the case yet. The song was then just an anthem for the U.S. Army and Navy, but it would prove to have legs (even if the Cubs’ World Series record would not). “The outpouring of sentiment, enthusiasm, and patriotism at the 1918 World Series went a long way to making the (song) the national anthem,’’ John Thorn, Major League Baseball’s official historian, told the Associated Press in July.
(08-17-2018, 11:18 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I agree that they don't have a problem with the military. I do not know how many more times I can type that.
But....
(08-17-2018, 11:18 AM)bfine32 Wrote: But purposely not rendering honor when asked to is disrespectful. I don't know how anyone can see it as any different.
I think most people would think asking for honor allows for not "rendering" honor in the US.
More importantly, in this country, we do ask...not demand. And we don't whine when we don't get what we ask for...right?
(08-17-2018, 11:18 AM)bfine32 Wrote: The left wants to have it all their way:
The can kneel
Their employer cannot tell them not to kneel
They can fail to show respect but not be considered disrespectful
As for me: I agree with the first one.
Very few people on the "left" have said their employer cannot tell them not to kneel. Most understand what Freedom of Speech means in relation to employment.
However the "right" wants to keep focusing on made up issues like that so they can ignore the cause that inspired people to kneel in the first place.
Your personal opinion of respect matter as much as mine no matter what you did in this life.
I can think of 100 different ways they could actually disrespectful that are not kneeling quietly during the anthem.
But keep up the good fight. At least we can see what you are fighting for...and it's not freedom.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(08-16-2018, 10:39 PM)Benton Wrote: To the bold: Good on you, I don't watch them.
And that's the point. A protest that no one knows about isn't a protest. I don't keep up with the NBA, so I know little to nothing about what you're talking about. But even a tennis fan who knows jack about football has heard about the anthem protest.
That's the point.
If I sit in my garage and refuse to take out the garbage, I'm not protesting anything. I'm taking little to no risk in my desire to bring attention to the issue of taking out garbage. And, outside of the squirrels in my attic, no one is going to know about my shenanigans. But if I tell my wife I'm skipping the family vacation because of my turn on garbage duty? Then I'm taking a risk.
Personally, I don't like the kneeling. I attend 2-3 public (city council, fiscal courts, etc) meetings a week that start with the pledge. As much as I disagree with what happens nationally, I say it every single meeting. But I respect the choice those players made in protesting in a way that was supposed to draw attention to a social issue, instead of taking a safer route.
And I don't think I said they were forced to use the anthem. I do believe they are very limited due to NFL rules on ways they could protest that would have any impact. As someone in the media, if I interview a player about a football game and he starts lobbing police violence statistics, I'm cutting that content. Why? Cause that's the job. Not because the media is evil or good or whatever, but if a reporter is supposed to get a story about a game or a season or whatever, and a player starts going off track, you aren't going to talk to that player again.
So, could players use an awards ceremony to discuss racial problems? Sure. And they would get just as ignored as standing on a corner and shouting the end is nigh.
I know folks who don't watch the NFL and aren't aware of the protests. But most folks who pay any attention know about the Anthem protests. They also know that the Golden State Warriors refused to go to the White House. They also know LeBron James (the biggest sports star on the planet) is a huge Hillary fan and hates him some Trump.
To the bolded: You are unlike any member of today's national media. CBS, PFT, ESPN, Yahoo and many other outlets absolutely LOVE when players speak out politically. I know because on any given day, I find stories with a political slant on each of those sights. If Steve Kerr remarks on Trump, there are 50 articles about it the next day. Shoot, they go out of their way to ASK political questions at times.
Randy Moss wants to wear a tie bearing the names of black folks killed by police? I'll see the story printed. If Richard Sherman says Trump should be impeached and Kaepernick should be President, you'll be reading about it on 90% of sports sites the next day.
So whether you want to to roll with "forced" to use the Anthem or just say NFL players are "very limited" in how they can be heard, I disagree either way. They can and will be heard, because most of today's sports media is on the same side they are.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
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