Good Night Irene

[GMDino]

[Shake n Blake]

(08-14-2018, 01:19 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: A reminder that this was started by a guy who made $43.5m by the age of 28, who has chosen to NEVER vote in his life, publicly praised Fidel Castro, and then declined a $16.9m player option, and has an activist girlfriend who then tanked his last job opportunity by comparing the team's owner to a slave owner on social media (she is also known for saying this... “When 9/11 happened, it didn’t surprise me at all. Wow. Mmkay. This is what we went through, probably, every couple months.”).

There is no real purpose to it all. No end game. No positive. Just a soup sandwich that was a mixture of a guy trying to distract from his declining/undeveloping skills that made him lose out in a QB competition to *Blaine Gabbert* and a guy who is apparently the type of person who changes their likes/personality/beliefs to match their significant other in a relationship (we all know those people, and this started RIGHT when they got together).

I think you nailed it. This protest is mucked up and clumsy, mainly because it was a spontaneous decision made by a guy with a history of poor decision making. There was no plan. Just a guy pissed off about losing his job to a white QB, with his radical muslim girlfriend putting ideas in his head about mass oppression via police. Btw - I don't toss the "radical" word around casually. Kaep's GF is a radical, to put it nicely.


Her twitter post about Steve Bisciotti and Ray Lewis was one of the most racist things I've seen recently...and she did this right before a scheduled visit with the Ravens. Then they complain about being blackballed. 

(08-14-2018, 09:30 AM)Benton Wrote: The half upset probably aren’t going to change their mind. Mostly they’ve just been complaining about disrespecting the flag or the military or something else. But I wonder what would be the best way to reach those folks.

1. Guys like you and I are not the ones they should be trying to reach in the first place.

2. If you dig a little deeper with those offended by the form of protest, you'll usually also find that most of them also think the problem is imaginary. Or I should say exaggerated and more complicated than "cops are racists". As I said before, the real problem is how many high tension encounters we have with police. Out of millions of violent (or threat of violence?) encounters, we only have roughly a half dozen questionable shootings per year? Imo, we're doing great there.

In order to reach police with their message though, perhaps they should change their message to something other than police = KKK. For one, it's a divisive and inaccurate generalization. For two, it's going to be difficult to open dialogue with police after you slap them in the face repeatedly.

[Benton]

(08-14-2018, 10:51 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 2. If you dig a little deeper with those offended by the form of protest, you'll usually also find that most of them also think the problem is imaginary. Or I should say exaggerated and more complicated than "cops are racists". As I said before, the real problem is how many high tension encounters we have with police. Out of millions of violent (or threat of violence?) encounters, we only have roughly a half dozen questionable shootings per year? Imo, we're doing great there.

In order to reach police with their message though, perhaps they should change their message to something other than police = KKK. For one, it's divisive and inaccurate. For two, it's going to be difficult to open dialogue with police after you slap them in the face repeatedly.

To the 2, I agree. The overwhelming majority of officers across the country have a dangerous job and the majority of the time it gets handled without ending in violence. And I think it's more often the officer getting injured.

But to the bold, I'm not sure who is getting slapped. When you've got idiots saying 'slaves had it great' or 'racism doesn't exist' it makes it difficult to have a conversation. Likewise, it doesn't help when you have visible numbers of white supremacists in law enforcement or government offices.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article210397909.html

Some (most?) agencies get rid of those kinds of idiots whenever they're made aware their agent is in a hate group. But what gets lost in all the divisiveness is the answer to: how do we keep people in hate groups from getting into law enforcement to begin with? I don't think we can do away with racism — it's inherent to find differences in ourselves — but removing people in hate groups from positions of authority doesn't seem too lofty.

[BmorePat87]

(08-14-2018, 12:29 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Still waiting to hear about all the positive strides being made by kneeling.

So far all I see is division. Even those on the left have to admit that not everyone agrees with their take that kneeling is not a disrespectful act. I would like to believe that the opinion of roughly half the country counts for something.

So if half the country is upset by the action (a negative)...where is the positive? There should be a massive positive to offset the obvious negative, which is division.

The fact that people are unwillingly to understand why a protest occurs and decide that their interpretation of the motives behind it is the only explanation for it does not make the protest a bad thing, nor is it the requirement of those protesting to change what they are doing to accommodate inflexible people. 

Many players do much more than just kneel or link arms together. Many are out in their communities helping. Many are expressing their views even as Trump says that they have no clue why they are protesting. Many are articulating their opinions in an intelligent fashion as the President of the United States rants incoherently on twitter and uses profanity to express his hatred of a movement he apparently does not understand or is unwillingly to understand. For many, this has also become a symbol of unity between players in the face of the person currently holding the most powerful office in the world calling for them to be fired because of their beliefs. 

So why does the burden fall on them to do more and more when "half the country" is unwilling to rid themselves of their ignorance surrounding the actions of these athletes?

[jj22]

Shrugs. If only these same "patriotic" America first folks cared about the POTUS colluding with a foreign enemy to attack America the way they do about players kneeling, I'd believe they really loved this country. But by now we know they don't. They just don't want black athlete's protesting injustice (even as they support a POTUS who attacks our law enforcement for the same thing daily).

As for the Uniform rules. As petty as they are, they are the rules agreed upon.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-14-2018, 11:46 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The fact that people are unwillingly to understand why a protest occurs and decide that their interpretation of the motives behind it is the only explanation for it does not make the protest a bad thing, nor is it the requirement of those protesting to change what they are doing to accommodate inflexible people. 

Here's my thoughts: if people are talking about your PROTEST and not about WHAT you're protesting, then you've failed at your protest. It's not always the fault of the protestors that their message is obscured or ignored completely, but it does mean the protest has failed.

[GMDino]

(08-14-2018, 04:13 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Here's my thoughts: if people are talking about your PROTEST and not about WHAT you're protesting, then you've failed at your protest. It's not always the fault of the protestors that their message is obscured or ignored completely, but it does mean the protest has failed.

The bold is the point.

Guy kneeled.  When asked why he explained.  Media explodes with argument over whether kneeling was the right thing to do and here we are, to this day, with people saying they don't know why he kneeled, claiming they know the REAL reason he kneeled and all other kids of stories that have zero to do with the actual event.

And people are too lazy to go find out when they have a nice, comfortable bubble of information around them telling them they are right even when they are demonstrably wrong.

So if it failed it is not the fault of the protestors.  It is the fault of those who wanted to avoid the reason and spin it into something else.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-14-2018, 04:20 PM)GMDino Wrote: The bold is the point.

Guy kneeled.  When asked why he explained.  Media explodes with argument over whether kneeling was the right thing to do and here we are, to this day, with people saying they don't know why he kneeled, claiming they know the REAL reason he kneeled and all other kids of stories that have zero to do with the actual event.

And people are too lazy to go find out when they have a nice, comfortable bubble of information around them telling them they are right even when they are demonstrably wrong.

So if it failed it is not the fault of the protestors.  It is the fault of those who wanted to avoid the reason and spin it into something else.

In the case of the kneeling, I think PART of the problem lies with the protestors, at least with Colin K, anyways. Had he started out kneeling and/or maybe even made a press release PRIOR to protesting, he may have been able to have more control over the message. 

That said, I think the majority of the fault lies with the media.

[Benton]

(08-14-2018, 04:13 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Here's my thoughts: if people are talking about your PROTEST and not about WHAT you're protesting, then you've failed at your protest. It's not always the fault of the protestors that their message is obscured or ignored completely, but it does mean the protest has failed.

There's a large chunk of the country that aren't going to talk about what they're protesting because they either A- don't believe it exists, or B- don't have a problem with it. 

[Benton]

(08-14-2018, 04:31 PM)PhilHos Wrote: In the case of the kneeling, I think PART of the problem lies with the protestors, at least with Colin K, anyways. Had he started out kneeling and/or maybe even made a press release PRIOR to protesting, he may have been able to have more control over the message. 

That said, I think the majority of the fault lies with the media.

If he made it known beforehand, there may not have been a protest. 

And to the bold, of course it is. The media invented racism, pro sports, protesting and socialism. The media also come together as a collective to manipulate all the information you hear. 

[GMDino]

(08-14-2018, 04:31 PM)PhilHos Wrote: In the case of the kneeling, I think PART of the problem lies with the protestors, at least with Colin K, anyways. Had he started out kneeling and/or maybe even made a press release PRIOR to protesting, he may have been able to have more control over the message. 

That said, I think the majority of the fault lies with the media.

I'm sure there are lots of other ways he could have controlled the message.  But what he did was address it immediately after the game...and people still ignored it so would it have made that much of a difference?


Like Benton said:  Some don't care, some don't believe it.  Doesn't matter how it is presented.

[fredtoast]

(08-14-2018, 04:31 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Had he started out kneeling and/or maybe even made a press release PRIOR to protesting, he may have been able to have more control over the message. 

He started out just sitting on the bench, but not many people seemed to notice.  Then FORMER GREEN BERET Nate Boyer suggested that he kneel because that was sign of respect to the fallen in the military.

So I guess we should blame this whole mess on that stupid Marine Veteran who told Kap to "disrespect the troops"

[BmorePat87]

(08-14-2018, 04:13 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Here's my thoughts: if people are talking about your PROTEST and not about WHAT you're protesting, then you've failed at your protest. It's not always the fault of the protestors that their message is obscured or ignored completely, but it does mean the protest has failed.

Plenty of people are indeed complaining that the protest is disrespectful to parties completely unrelated and uninvolved in the protest.

But plenty of people are talking about what they're protesting and plenty more are getting involved. Their protest isn't failing no matter how much the first group hopes it is. 

[Shake n Blake]

(08-14-2018, 11:07 AM)Benton Wrote: To the 2, I agree. The overwhelming majority of officers across the country have a dangerous job and the majority of the time it gets handled without ending in violence. And I think it's more often the officer getting injured.

But to the bold, I'm not sure who is getting slapped. When you've got idiots saying 'slaves had it great' or 'racism doesn't exist' it makes it difficult to have a conversation. Likewise, it doesn't help when you have visible numbers of white supremacists in law enforcement or government offices.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article210397909.html

Some (most?) agencies get rid of those kinds of idiots whenever they're made aware their agent is in a hate group. But what gets lost in all the divisiveness is the answer to: how do we keep people in hate groups from getting into law enforcement to begin with? I don't think we can do away with racism — it's inherent to find differences in ourselves — but removing people in hate groups from positions of authority doesn't seem too lofty.

I do believe we have an issue with accountability for police in this country. Ones who are proven to have killed in cold blood should be prosecuted...and sometimes they are. "Sometimes" is a problem though. Members of hate groups should also be fired without question.

That said, I feel my first point shouldn't be ignored. For millions of encounters, we only have a very small handful of questionable incidents. Why are we pretending it's an epidemic? Also, I'm not sure what these quotes are you're referring to, but I'm not sure how that changes the fact that these players have essentially branded a nation of police officers over a small handful of incidents.

It's disingenuous, misleading, divisive and inspires unnecessary hatred and paranoia with police nationwide. If they really want to be heard, they need to come with a less hostile message, and actually go to their state legislators. 3 years into this protest, and I'm not seeing what it's accomplished. If you're being honest, you probably agree. It has done nothing outside of further divide Joe Citizen and keep us debating.

With that, I've said my piece. Unlike some (not you) I realize and respect that others have differing opinions. It'd serve the protesters well to have that same respect. Branding everyone a racist who disagrees is a big problem in this country right now. It inflames your opposition and prevents meaningful discourse.

[fredtoast]

(08-14-2018, 06:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: That said, I feel my first point shouldn't be ignored. For millions of encounters, we only have a very small handful of questionable incidents. Why are we pretending it's an epidemic? Also, I'm not sure what these quotes are you're referring to, but I'm not sure how that changes the fact that these players have essentially branded a nation of police officers over a small handful of incidents.

You are not taking into account two major facts that give these "handful" of incidents much more serious meaning.

1.  Police use racial profiling.  There have been multiple studies that factored out socio economic factors, location, and other variables other than race, and these studies show that police are more likely to stop and search minorities than whites.  In fact multiple law enforcement officers have admitted to racial profiling practices.  So blacks know that police use racist tactics.

2.  Police brag about the honor code among them whereby they will lie to protect a police officer who has committed a crime.  We have all heard about this famous "Blue Wall".

Minorities did not invent these two facts, but they know all about them.  So now you don't just have a "handful of incidents".  Instead you have a "handful of incidents where cops who use racists tactics have shot unarmed black men and are willing to lie to cover up an unjustified killing".

So if we are going to have better relationship between minorities and police we need the police to agree to stop racially profiling and lying to cover up crimes committed by fellow police officers.

[fredtoast]

(08-14-2018, 06:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote:  Branding everyone a racist who disagrees is a big problem in this country right now. It inflames your opposition and prevents meaningful discourse.

No different from accusing the players of "hating and disrespecting the military".

[Bengalzona]

(08-14-2018, 05:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He started out just sitting on the bench, but not many people seemed to notice.  Then FORMER GREEN BERET Nate Boyer suggested that he kneel because that was sign of respect to the fallen in the military.

So I guess we should blame this whole mess on that stupid Marine Veteran who told Kap to "disrespect the troops"

Um... Green Berets aren't Marines. They are Army.

Carry on.

[*bfine32*]

(08-14-2018, 05:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He started out just sitting on the bench, but not many people seemed to notice.  Then FORMER GREEN BERET Nate Boyer suggested that he kneel because that was sign of respect to the fallen in the military.

So I guess we should blame this whole mess on that stupid Marine Veteran who told Kap to "disrespect the troops"

First of all Green Berets are not in the Marines. (EDIT: should have read Zona; didn't mean to double tap)

Secondly, is that the guy that said he disappointed that Kap chose the sit and looks forward to the day he will stand for the Anthem again?

Finally, let's say Nate loves the fact that Nate and others sit during the Anthem (of course he doesn't, but let's go with it to help your scenario). 

I think it's disrespectful. Whose opinion are you gonna roll with: a guy that served 6 years or a guy that has served over 30 and is still serving? 

Kneeling during the National Anthem is disrespectful, it is why they do it, to draw attention. Regardless of the hoops folks try to jump through to assert it is not. 

[fredtoast]

(08-15-2018, 07:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Kneeling during the National Anthem is disrespectful, it is why they do it, to draw attention. Regardless of the hoops folks try to jump through to assert it is not. 

Kneeling during the anthem is not disrespectful to service men.  There are too many veterans who agree with the kneeling.  Your opinion is your opinion.  It is not a fact.  You don't have the authority to speak for every person who ever served in the military.

They do not kneel to "disrespect" anyone.  They do it to draw attention to what they perceive as injustice.

Donald Trump spent his entire campaign claiming the United States had a lot of problems that need to be corrected.  That is all these football players are saying.  If what Kap was doing is disrespectful then Trumps entire campaign was based on disrespect.

[*bfine32*]

(08-15-2018, 07:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Kneeling during the anthem is not disrespectful to service men.  There are too many veterans who agree with the kneeling.  Your opinion is your opinion.  It is not a fact.  You don't have the authority to speak for every person who ever served in the military.

They do not kneel to "disrespect" anyone.  They do it to draw attention to what they perceive as injustice.

Donald Trump spent his entire campaign claiming the United States had a lot of problems that need to be corrected.  That is all these football players are saying.  If what Kap was doing is disrespectful then Trumps entire campaign was based on disrespect

Let's not pretend for a second that most veterans (or even a high percentage) agree with not standing for the National Anthem. But apparently you felt the need to use this 6 year veteran's opinion (which I'm pretty sure you still don't understand) as fact. 

Also let's not forget Kap's first words on the matter:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," 


Now folks will try to spin that a million different ways, but that was the reason he chose not to stand. He didn't want to show pride in the flag.