Good Night Irene

[BmorePat87]

(08-15-2018, 07:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Let's not pretend for a second that most veterans (or even a high percentage) agree with not standing for the National Anthem. But apparently you felt the need to use this 6 year veteran's opinion (which I'm pretty sure you still don't understand) as fact. 

Also let's not forget Kap's first words on the matter:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," 


Now folks will try to spin that a million different ways, but that was the reason he chose not to stand. He didn't want to show pride in the flag. 

Genuine question: Is it only disrespectful to the flag or are there other parties that it disrespects too?

[*bfine32*]

(08-15-2018, 08:07 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Genuine question: Is it only disrespectful to the flag or are there other parties that it disrespects too?

Many service members feel it is disrespectful to them as well; however, I do not fall into that category. It's disrespecting the Nation for which it stands. If you want to do that then go for it, but don't assert I'm not disrespecting the flag.

Consciously choosing to not show respect during the Anthem and suggesting you are doing it for good is like like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[BmorePat87]

(08-15-2018, 08:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Many service members feel it is disrespectful to them as well; however, I do not fall into that category. It's disrespecting the Nation for which it stands. If you want to do that then go for it, but don't assert I'm not disrespecting the flag.

Consciously choosing to not show respect during the Anthem and suggesting you are doing it for good is like like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

So it's not inherently disrespectful to the military or police. 

I agree that demonstrating during the anthem is inherently disrespectful to the flag and/or country, I just don't see kneeling, linking arms, or holding up a fist as any worse than refusing to remove your hat, not stopping what you're doing, or talking during it. It's just not that egregious of an act to me, enough so that we can strip these protestors of their purpose and decide what their protest actually represents. 

[GMDino]

[*bfine32*]

(08-15-2018, 10:32 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So it's not inherently disrespectful to the military or police. 

I agree that demonstrating during the anthem is inherently disrespectful to the flag and/or country, I just don't see kneeling, linking arms, or holding up a fist as any worse than refusing to remove your hat, not stopping what you're doing, or talking during it. It's just not that egregious of an act to me, enough so that we can strip these protestors of their purpose and decide what their protest actually represents. 

Of course it's not disrespectful to the police and there in lies the ignorance of the movement. 

Your examples are the reason I stated consciously choosing not to show respect. These folks know they should and contentiously choose not to and make sure they are seen doing it.

No one is saying these folks cannot protest, just understand that their protest is purposely disrespecting the flag and the nation for which it stands. Can folks at least own that and quit saying "They're not disrespecting anything" and understand that a private employer does ot want you to do it on their dime? 

[GMDino]

(08-15-2018, 10:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course it's not disrespectful to the police and there in lies the ignorance of the movement. 

Your examples are the reason I stated consciously choosing not to show respect. These folks know they should and contentiously choose not to and make sure they are seen doing it.

No one is saying these folks cannot protest, just understand that their protest is purposely disrespecting the flag and the nation for which it stands. Can folks at least own that and quit saying "They're not disrespecting anything" and understand that a private employer does ot want you to do it on their dime? 

Eh, I have never looked to see what other people are doing during the anthem.

And I doubt they MADE the networks turn their cameras on them.

[BmorePat87]

(08-15-2018, 10:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course it's not disrespectful to the police and there in lies the ignorance of the movement. 

Ignorance of which movement?




 

Quote:No one is saying these folks cannot protest, just understand that their protest is purposely disrespecting the flag and the nation for which it stands. Can folks at least own that and quit saying "They're not disrespecting anything" and understand that a private employer does ot want you to do it on their dime? 

I think people should say that and others should quit saying "they're disrespecting people in uniform". 

[GMDino]

[*bfine32*]

(08-16-2018, 12:00 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Ignorance of which movement?




 


I think people should say that and others should quit saying "they're disrespecting people in uniform". 

The movement of Police treating blacks unfairly; it is the genesis of it all.

There reason I don't consider them disrespecting men in uniform is because they don't understand that they are doing it; however, they are doing it. But they are intentionally disrespecting the flag and the protocol asked to render it honors.  

[BmorePat87]

(08-16-2018, 12:12 AM)bfine32 Wrote: The movement of Police treating blacks unfairly; it is the genesis of it all.

You're suggesting that they are ignorant because they are trying to disrespect the police but are not actually disrespecting the police?

Quote:There reason I don't consider them disrespecting men in uniform is because they don't understand that they are doing it; however, they are doing it.

How does it disrespect the military?

[*bfine32*]

(08-16-2018, 12:48 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: You're suggesting that they are ignorant because they are trying to disrespect the police but are not actually disrespecting the police?




How does it disrespect the military?

Yes, not rendering courtesy during the playing of the National Anthem disrespects an entire nation. As I said they are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Because wherever fighting men/women go in this world to protect our freedoms or assist the oppressed the flag is their standard. You come over the hill and see a US Flag, you know you have an allied. Those not fortunate enough to come home vertical come home with one draped over their coffin and full courtesies are given every step of the journey. When you purposely choose to not show courtesy when it is presented in public you are not honoring those men and women.

As I have said: I don't feel (many do) they are intentionally disrespecting and every time someone tells them they are not, they are more emboldened to do so. But make no mistake they are disrespecting the flag and those who fight for it. 

[jj22]

Let's just ignore our Vets support the kneeling movement. They keep telling Trump supporters they fought for this right to peacefully protest, and they even recommended kneeling as a sign of respect (I mean they keep telling folks it's what people do when praying and such). But it doesn't fit Trump supporters political narrative.

Trump supporters don't speak for Law Enforcement or our Vets. They attack them daily, accept Putin's Intel over America's. They've turned on our Allies for Putin, and our Vets like McCain and those who were captured. It's increasingly difficult for folks to believe they are Patriotic.

[Benton]

(08-16-2018, 11:53 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes, not rendering courtesy during the playing of the National Anthem disrespects an entire nation. As I said they are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Because wherever fighting men/women go in this world to protect our freedoms or assist the oppressed the flag is their standard. You come over the hill and see a US Flag, you know you have an allied. Those not fortunate enough to come home vertical come home with one draped over their coffin and full courtesies are given every step of the journey. When you purposely choose to not show courtesy when it is presented in public you are not honoring those men and women.

As I have said: I don't feel (many do) they are intentionally disrespecting and every time someone tells them they are not, they are more emboldened to do so. But make no mistake they are disrespecting the flag and those who fight for it. 

Why is it mutually exclusive?

I'm against a big military and most of our interventions (I like a small government). But I thank veterans when I can (volunteer and help promote local Veteran's Day luncheons, if I see a veteran or active duty in a bar I buy the guy a round, little things). Maybe — as someone who didn't serve — I won't be able to understand the mindset that protesting against a government or a mindset is the same as protesting against its employees. 

[Millhouse]

(08-16-2018, 11:53 AM)bfine32 Wrote: But make no mistake they are disrespecting the flag and those who fight for it. 

The only reason the national anthem is played before a game is to honor those that fight for our country in the military. Its not played to honor policies, lawmakers, police, etc.

This is why it is said that though their message they are trying to send is good, the method is not good. A method which was started by a wannabe radical quarterback that wore pig-cop socks to practice and a pro-Fidel Castro t-shirt to press conference. Narrow minded fools taking after one is all this is.

[*bfine32*]

(08-16-2018, 12:08 PM)jj22 Wrote: Let's just ignore our Vets support the kneeling movement. They keep telling Trump supporters they fought for this right to peacefully protest, and they even recommended kneeling as a sign of respect (I mean they keep telling folks it's what people do when praying and such). But it doesn't fit Trump supporters political narrative.

Trump supporters don't speak for Law Enforcement or our Vets. They attack them daily, accept Putin's Intel over America's. They've turned on our Allies for Putin, and our Vets like McCain and those who were captured. It's increasingly difficult for folks to believe they are Patriotic.

Lets just ignore reality. It is true that most vets (including me) support the individual right to kneel; however, it does not mean they do not feel a sense of disrespect to the flag when they choose to do so. Both the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign War has supported the right to kneel; however, view it as disrespectful. 

A couple quotes from the Commanders of each organization may help illustrate the point:

American Legion: “Having a right to do something does not make it the right thing to do. There are many ways to protest, but the national anthem should be our moment to stand together as one UNITED States of America.”

VFW: "There is a time and place for civil debate, and wearing team jerseys, and using sporting events to disrespect our country doesn’t wash with millions of military veterans who have and continue to wear real uniforms on real battlefields around the globe.” 

So that you and others no longer ignore things: The movement has turned from one of a guy trying to bring attention to injustice to a personal hate of POTUS that folks are willing to be OK with disrespecting the flag, So you can save the patriotic stuff for someone else. 

[*bfine32*]

(08-16-2018, 12:26 PM)Millhouse Wrote: The only reason the national anthem is played before a game is to honor those that fight for our country in the military. Its not played to honor policies, lawmakers, police, etc.

This is why it is said that though their message they are trying to send is good, the method is not good. A method which was started by a wannabe radical quarterback that wore pig-cop socks to practice and a pro-Fidel Castro t-shirt to press conference. Narrow minded fools taking after one is all this is.

Great point; As I said some folks just don't know and it is difficult to explain when you have others telling you "You're right".

The whole genesis of the Anthem playing before ballgames was to honor fighting men and women who could not be there in person to observe the games. But somehow, someway the narrative has turned to purposely choosing not to participate in this honor is not disrespectful.  

[GMDino]

(08-16-2018, 12:30 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Lets just ignore reality. It is true that most vets (including me) support the individual right to kneel; however, it does not mean they do not feel a sense of disrespect to the flag when they choose to do so. Both the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign War has supported the right to kneel; however, view it as disrespectful. 

A couple quotes from the Commanders of each organization may help illustrate the point:

American Legion: “Having a right to do something does not make it the right thing to do. There are many ways to protest, but the national anthem should be our moment to stand together as one UNITED States of America.”

VFW: "There is a time and place for civil debate, and wearing team jerseys, and using sporting events to disrespect our country doesn’t wash with millions of military veterans who have and continue to wear real uniforms on real battlefields around the globe.” 

Ain't America great? We can disagree and still have the right to protest and disagree.

(08-16-2018, 12:30 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So that you and others no longer ignore things: The movement has turned from one of a guy trying to bring attention to injustice to a personal hate of POTUS that folks are willing to be OK with disrespecting the flag, So you can save the patriotic stuff for someone else. 

I think you suffer from Trump Delusional Syndrome. Trump interjected HIMSELF into the discussion and, in typical Trump fashion, not only muddied the waters so the original point was covered up but also made it all about himself.

Let's talk about how minorities are treated and ignore the rest of this made up outrage over something that was not intended nor every implied. Can we do that? Or would you rather get caught in the trap of HOW the protests happened instead of why while proclaiming your patriotism is greater?

[jj22]

Or at least can we call for the POTUS and his supporters to quit attacking our Law enforcement and disrespecting our military and Vets by attacking our Allies and siding with Putin? Or is that too much to ask as long as there's black athletes to silence?

[Millhouse]

(08-16-2018, 12:37 PM)GMDino Wrote: Ain't America great?  We can disagree and still have the right to protest and disagree.


I think you suffer from Trump Delusional Syndrome.  Trump interjected HIMSELF into the discussion and, in typical Trump fashion, not only muddied the waters so the original point was covered up but also made it all about himself.

Let's talk about how minorities are treated and ignore the rest of this made up outrage over something that was not intended nor every implied.  Can we do that?  Or would you rather get caught in the trap of HOW the protests happened instead of why while proclaiming your patriotism is greater?

Trump was an idiot to get involved to begin with, I'll explain why below. But the original point of kneeling didn't get muddied up due to Trump. It got covered over because of the act itself. During the 2016 season, there was quite a lot of debate on it going on, and lost during that debate was why it got started in the first place. The debate was over the method. And I even said back then their protest has backfired because no one cares about their message now.

On to Trump. He was an idiot a year later in Sept of 2017 I believe, to lash out at those that kneeled. At that point it seemed the kneeling was subsiding, and was just going to be a fad that will soon fade out.  But then he opened his big mouth about it, and basically threw a keg of gasoline on embers burning out. Since then he made it about himself as I agree and tried to keep the division going on it for his base, rather than just letting it die out on it's own, since he does love his rhetoric.

[BmorePat87]

(08-16-2018, 11:53 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes, not rendering courtesy during the playing of the National Anthem disrespects an entire nation. As I said they are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Because wherever fighting men/women go in this world to protect our freedoms or assist the oppressed the flag is their standard. You come over the hill and see a US Flag, you know you have an allied. Those not fortunate enough to come home vertical come home with one draped over their coffin and full courtesies are given every step of the journey. When you purposely choose to not show courtesy when it is presented in public you are not honoring those men and women.

As I have said: I don't feel (many do) they are intentionally disrespecting and every time someone tells them they are not, they are more emboldened to do so. But make no mistake they are disrespecting the flag and those who fight for it. 

So the military fights for our flag. Therefore disrespecting the national anthem is disrespecting the flag which is disrespecting the military.


This is like 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon but for finding ways to get outraged.