Google again...leaked email

[*bfine32*]

(09-18-2018, 02:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: https://www.newsweek.com/poll-whos-backing-nfl-protesters-answer-may-surprise-you-671279

Conservative Republicans stand out in their support for firing NFL players who refuse to stand for the national anthem. Nearly two-thirds (65 percent) of Republicans say NFL players should be fired for this reason.

Only 19 percent of Democrats and 35 percent of independents agree.



Poor Bfine.  Do you realize how removed from reality he has to be to think that partisan politics "has nothing to do with it".  

At this point I'm just going to assume you are incapable of grasping the point. I never said individuals should/could not have opinions on whether folks should stand or not. Just as I told Dino I fully expect Politicians to make everything political. You're trying to make an argument that is not there simply because it's easier to dispute than the argument presented. There's a term for that I think it's called Straw man.

I have said that IMO private companies should not push their agenda onto its employees to the degree that google did. They called those that voted for Trump Xenophobes, self-destructive, and irrational among other things. Do you think companies should or should not do this?

Now you can answer that question, make up another argument, or go about your day.

[*bfine32*]

(09-18-2018, 02:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Companies have been publicly endorsing candidates for years.  Apparently you never even knew about it until it was time to start defending your boy Donald.

OK, what am I defending Donald from now? And who the hell said private companies cannot endorse candidates? There's the straw thingy again. You're really good at that, Debating actual points made; not so much.

[fredtoast]

(09-18-2018, 04:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: At this point I'm just going to assume you are incapable of grasping the point. I never said individuals should/could not have opinions on whether folks should stand or not. Just as I told Dino I fully expect Politicians to make everything political. You're trying to make an argument that is not there simply because it's easier to dispute than the argument presented. There's a term for that I think it's called Straw man.

No straw man.  You said it was not a political issue.  I just showed the numbers that prove it is.  This poll is not just politicians.  It is all citizens.

You are the on having trouble grasping this point.  The national anthem protest is a very divisive political issue.  Republicans are overwhelmingly against it while democrats and independents are not.  So when a business owner takes a side he is making a pollical statement.

[fredtoast]

(09-18-2018, 04:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: OK, what am I defending Donald from now? 

The evil people at Google.

[fredtoast]

(09-18-2018, 04:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I have said that IMO private companies should not push their agenda onto its employees to the degree that google did. They called those that voted for Trump Xenophobes, self-destructive, and irrational among other things. Do you think companies should or should not do this?

Now you can answer that question, make up another argument, or go about your day.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by "the degree that Google did".  Google did not threaten to fire anyone for political beliefs the way Jerry Jones did and you have already made it clear that you endorse Jones's position.

As for just using words I don't think anything can be done about that.  Anytime the boss makes it clear who he/she endorses the language does not matter that much.  I don't think it is improper for companies to endorse a certain party or candidate as long as they don't threaten employees with retribution if they do not agree.

So what is your position?  Should employers be barred from expressing their political beliefs?  

[*bfine32*]

(09-18-2018, 04:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No straw man.  You said it was not a political issue.  I just showed the numbers that prove it is.  This poll is not just politicians.  It is all citizens.

You are the on having trouble grasping this point.  The national anthem protest is a very divisive political issue.  Republicans are overwhelmingly against it while democrats and independents are not.  So when a business owner takes a side he is making a pollical statement.

I've clearly said individuals are are free to express their views and have shown where the most influential business owner in the NFL has said politicians need to keep their noses out of it.

(09-18-2018, 04:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The evil people at Google.

Quote to where I defended Trump against anything the evil people at Google has said. We both know I have not, but if you admitted that then you wouldn't be able to spew your "defending your boy Donald" baseless assertion. I've simply defended the employee that might feel slurred against.

(09-18-2018, 04:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not sure I understand what you mean by "the degree that Google did".  Google did not threaten to fire anyone for political beliefs the way Jerry Jones did and you have already made it clear that you endorse Jones's position.

As for just using words I don't think anything can be done about that.  Anytime the boss makes it clear who he/she endorses the language does not matter that much.  I don't think it is improper for companies to endorse a certain party or candidate as long as they don't threaten employees with retribution if they do not agree.

So what is your position?  Should employers be barred from expressing their political beliefs?  

You don't understand the degree. even though I provided examples; not sure what else I can do for you. BTW, there is a claim in the article that guy said he was fired because he disagreed with their views. But I understand why you didn't want to give a straight answer

Your assertion that business owners can slur employees as long as they don't threaten to retaliate against them is one I disagree with.

Yes, I do agree with Jones' position that Trump should shut up about it.

No; employers should not be barred from expressing their political beliefs.  Hell if you would have read my OP on the matter instead of squealing about Trump and kneeling, you would have seen I said they have the right. See how easy it is to give a straight answer.

[fredtoast]

(09-18-2018, 06:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've clearly said individuals are are free to express their views and have shown where the most influential business owner in the NFL has said politicians need to keep their noses out of it.

Yes, I do agree with Jones' position that Trump should shut up about it.

No; employers should not be barred from expressing their political beliefs. 

So employers should not be barred from expressing their political beliefs but Jones is justified in firing any player who does?

How does that make any sense?

You keep trying to claim that the national anthem protest is not a "political issue" but it clearly is.  I have posted the numbers to prove it.  How do you define a "political issue"?  Is tax policy and economics issue that has nothing to do with politics?  Are abortion and same sex marraige moral issues that have nothing to do with politics?  How exactly do you define a "political issue"?

[fredtoast]

(09-18-2018, 06:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Quote to where I defended Trump against anything the evil people at Google has said. We both know I have not, but if you admitted that then you wouldn't be able to spew your "defending your boy Donald" baseless assertion. I've simply defended the employee that might feel slurred against.

All you have done is criticized Google because they oppose Trump.  You have no problem with the hundreds of companies who publically supported Trump.

You try to claim it is because of the "extent" Google opposed Trump, yet they never said they would fire people for political beliefs like Trump and Jones have said they would.

[Dill]

(09-18-2018, 11:50 AM)GMDino Wrote: I think Dill was saying that one party has made it an issue by saying you "have to" pay respect (and only their way).  And that if you do anything other than their way, when they tell you to do it, you are being "disrespectful" even if what you are doing has nothing to to with the flag.

But I never took an oath so maybe I'm wrong.

I think you are right.

Bfine may think all Americans regardless of party should respect the flag, and so for that reason he sees the issue as non-partisan.  

If so, he doesn't really look at the history of this "respect" and the partisan arguments over its enforcement, as the "liberal" side thinks we should respect the individual right to free speech and the anti-democratic side thinks people should kow tow to the flag as a symbol of authority. 

So from a historical/legal perspective, people like Jerry Jones and Trump are not being non-partisan when they stand for coercing football players--employees in a private business--to submit to their authoritarian politics while on the job.  Other people are partisan; they are just right.

This carries over to complaints about the politics expressed on people's sigs. Same deal.

[GMDino]

(09-19-2018, 03:33 PM)Dill Wrote: I think you are right.

Bfine may think all Americans regardless of party should respect the flag, and so for that reason he sees the issue as non-partisan.  

If so, he doesn't really look at the history of this "respect" and the partisan arguments over its enforcement, as the "liberal" side thinks we should respect the individual right to free speech and the anti-democratic side thinks people should kow tow to the flag as a symbol of authority. 

So from a historical/legal perspective, people like Jerry Jones and Trump are not being non-partisan when they stand for coercing football players--employees in a private business--to submit to their authoritarian politics while on the job.  Other people are partisan; they are just right.

This carries over to complaints about the politics expressed on people's sigs.  Same deal.

I have to think, that given the opportunity, I would take a knee if Trump could see it.  Not out of disrespect for the flag, or the military.  Not to support the cause of Kaepernick and others.  Just to see if he'd say anything or not.  Just to show the folly of "demanding respect" for something because...respect.

My guess if one of these NFL players did it with him watching he'd keep his little hole mouth shut until safely behind his tweeting machine.

[*bfine32*]

(09-19-2018, 09:44 AM)fredtoast Wrote: All you have done is criticized Google because they oppose Trump.  You have no problem with the hundreds of companies who publically supported Trump.

You try to claim it is because of the "extent" Google opposed Trump, yet they never said they would fire people for political beliefs like Trump and Jones have said they would.

Rational folks that can read, can clearly see that I have not done anything to defend Trump in this thread. They can plainly see I have criticized Goggle or any company that makes their political biases so overt that it can create a hostile work environment; regardless what that bias is.

Given, it could come from my Military background and the norm of not discussing your issues with or about your Commander In Chief. It has 0 to do with Trump, but I understand your inability to see past that component of the dynamic.

[GMDino]

(09-19-2018, 03:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Rational folks that can read, can clearly see that I have not done anything to defend Trump in this thread. They can plainly see I have criticized Goggle or any company that makes their political biases so overt that it can create a hostile work environment; regardless what that bias is.

Given, it could come from my Military background and the norm of not discussing your issues with or about your Commander In Chief. It has 0 to do with Trump, but I understand your inability to see past that component of the dynamic.

Here we go with this again.

Can we stop with using your military service as an excuse for the Trump support?

Just admit that you don't care what he is like as a person, what things he says or does, how childish he acts or his inability to grow up as a person or as a President.  All you care about is that the GOP can get their policies pushed through.  Period.  

Is it that hard to admit it rather than pretend it's because you "took an oath" like that magically forced you to be loyal to the US and the POTUS at all costs for the rest of your natural life and disregarding any and all outside factors?

My dad took the oath...he'll happily tell you that Trump is a walking, talking piece of crap.

So it ain't the "oath" or your "military experience" ...it's your choice as a person to support Trump.

Thanks!

[*bfine32*]

(09-19-2018, 04:01 PM)GMDino Wrote: Here we go with this again.

Can we stop with using your military service as an excuse for the Trump support?

Just admit that you don't care what he is like as a person, what things he says or does, how childish he acts or his inability to grow up as a person or as a President.  All you care about is that the GOP can get their policies pushed through.  Period.  

Is it that hard to admit it rather than pretend it's because you "took an oath" like that magically forced you to be loyal to the US and the POTUS at all costs for the rest of your natural life and disregarding any and all outside factors?

My dad took the oath...he'll happily tell you that Trump is a walking, talking piece of crap.

So it ain't the "oath" or your "military experience" ...it's your choice as a person to support Trump.

Thanks!

Quit using your dad as an excuse.

You're Welcome.

[GMDino]

(09-19-2018, 04:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Quit using your dad as an excuse.

You're Welcome.

I used him as an example of a man who can see when his oath means something versus using it as an excuse for one's behavior.

No problem....your silence speaks volumes.

[fredtoast]

(09-19-2018, 03:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  They can plainly see I have criticized Goggle or any company that makes their political biases so overt that it can create a hostile work environment; regardless what that bias is.

Actually everyone has seen that you support Jerry Jones threat to fire employees over their political beliefs.

[fredtoast]

(09-19-2018, 03:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote:
Given, it could come from my Military background and the norm of not discussing your issues with or about your Commander In Chief. 

Given the way you criticized President Obama and the number of vets who have criticized Trump I am saying this is 100% BS.

I have never seen any "norm" regarding vets being brainwashed to the extent that they can not criticize the President when he is wrong.

[*bfine32*]

(09-19-2018, 05:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Given the way you criticized President Obama and the number of vets who have criticized Trump I am saying this is 100% BS.

I have never seen any "norm" regarding vets being brainwashed to the extent that they can not criticize the President when he is wrong.

I never criticized a Commander in Chief to my subordinates my entire Military career, You can go with 100% BS if you want; you do know we were talking about a work environment don't you? WTS, bloviating anonymously on a social media site has 0 to do with an employer creating a hostile environment.

It's almost like your trying to create an argument that was not made, because you cannot articulate your position on employers sharing their political bias on there employees to the point of insulting someone that believe counter to them. What's the word for that again? Is it one of those straw thingys (take note Matt).

I suppose I should not have shared what may lead me to see the issue through a different lens than many. Because Frick and Frack are setting me straight on how it's BS.

[fredtoast]

(09-19-2018, 07:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's almost like your trying to create an argument that was not made, because you cannot articulate your position on employers sharing their political bias on there employees to the point of insulting someone that believe counter to them. What's the word for that again? Is it one of those straw thingys (take note Matt).

I am not talking about the employer just talking about political beliefs.  I am talking about an employer like Jerry Jones saying he will fire employees over political beliefs.  That is about as hostile as a work environment can get.  Yet you fully support Jerry's policy.

[fredtoast]

(09-19-2018, 07:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I never criticized a Commander in Chief to my subordinates my entire Military career, 

Sorry, I misunderstood you.  I thought you were explaining why you were so devoted to defending Trump.

[*bfine32*]

(09-20-2018, 06:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not talking about the employer just talking about political beliefs.  I am talking about an employer like Jerry Jones saying he will fire employees over political beliefs.  That is about as hostile as a work environment can get.  Yet you fully support Jerry's policy.

I suppose you missed the link that I posted that showed Jerry Jones wishes politicians (mainly Trump) would get their noses out of the situation. I am unaware of any NFL owner that has threatened any NFL player because of how they vote as a US citizen