Government Shutdown

[GMDino]

So it appears that a small group within the republican party wants to shut the government down in order to force...something.

The same group who were there and participated in the largest four year deficit increase ever.  Almost as large as Obama had in eight years.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2020/09/27/trump-will-create-more-debt-than-obama/?sh=5a3a942512f1

Even their fellow republicans are against this and, from what I heard, are saying they will get something done with or without what they are calling "the clown show", with the acknowledgement that shutdowns tend to reflect badly on their party throughout history.

I'll hopefully get a chance to get into more details later, but I wondered how people felt about this "power move" to shut it all down...again.

[Mike M (the other one)]

You can blame the Repubs all you want, but it takes 2 to tango. Dems will hardline to push it just as hard as they can as well and try to put all the pressure and blame on the Repubs.

What i would really like is cuts all around with focus on reducing the overall debt, so much money wasted on Interest that could be put to much better usage (like inftrastructure).

[GMDino]

(09-20-2023, 10:58 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: You can blame the Repubs all you want, but it takes 2 to tango. Dems will hardline to push it just as hard as they can as well and try to put all the pressure and blame on the Repubs.

What i would really like is cuts all around with focus on reducing the overall debt, so much money wasted on Interest that could be put to much better usage (like inftrastructure).

Well it's not just me blaming them...they are in control of the House and have chosen this path.

As one person said on the radio this morning this group that is pushing for the shutdown don't have any defined goals and aren't willing to make deals.  They want what they want and that's it.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-20-2023, 11:23 AM)GMDino Wrote: Well it's not just me blaming them...they are in control of the House and have chosen this path.

As one person said on the radio this morning this group that is pushing for the shutdown don't have any defined goals and aren't willing to make deals.  They want what they want and that's it.

This is some rather flawed logic.  If, by your own admission, this is a small group of Republicans, then it would take an equally small group of Dems to vote against them and negate their attempts at shut down the government.  

[GMDino]

(09-20-2023, 11:56 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This is some rather flawed logic.  If, by your own admission, this is a small group of Republicans, then it would take an equally small group of Dems to vote against them and negate their attempts at shut down the government.  

Which is why I wrote that their fellow republicans have said they are determined to get something done.  Hopefully the adults in the room can reach some agreement.  However that does not change the issue that this is a group of republicans that are fine with shutting down the government again despite what history has taught them about doing it.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-20-2023, 12:26 PM)GMDino Wrote: Which is why I wrote that their fellow republicans have said they are determined to get something done.

Well, and some Dems too as previously stated.  But you also said, "Well it's not just me blaming them...they are in control of the House and have chosen this path."  Referring to the GOP as a whole.  This seems rather contrary to what you just stated here.

Quote:Hopefully the adults in the room can reach some agreement.  However that does not change the issue that this is a group of republicans that are fine with shutting down the government again despite what history has taught them about doing it.

Indeed it does not.  But you're also tarring all of the GOP house, as noted above, because of the actions of these few.  If the number is so few then I'm sure some moderate Dems can step in and fill the small gap needed to avoid shutdown.  If they don't then are they not just as responsible for allowing a shutdown?

[GMDino]

(09-20-2023, 12:39 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Well, and some Dems too as previously stated.  But you also said, "Well it's not just me blaming them...they are in control of the House and have chosen this path."  Referring to the GOP as a whole.  This seems rather contrary to what you just stated here.



Indeed it does not.  But you're also tarring all of the GOP house, as noted above, because of the actions of these few.  If the number is so few then I'm sure some moderate Dems can step in and fill the small gap needed to avoid shutdown.  If they don't then are they not just as responsible for allowing a shutdown?

Again, I hope to have time later tonight to look into more specifics but let me write in a more clear manner:

A group of republicans, the party of which they belong has control of the House, seem intent on trying to cause a government shutdown.  This despite members of their own party disagreeing with them.

They are a small group, that does not mean others DON'T agree them either.

I've already agreed that if republicans that do NOT want to shut down the government can reach an agreement along with Democrats it will not matter.  It is still an issue though.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-20-2023, 12:51 PM)GMDino Wrote: Again, I hope to have time later tonight to look into more specifics but let me write in a more clear manner:

A group of republicans, the party of which they belong has control of the House, seem intent on trying to cause a government shutdown.  This despite members of their own party disagreeing with them.

They are a small group, that does not mean others DON'T agree them either.

I've already agreed that if republicans that do NOT want to shut down the government can reach an agreement along with Democrats it will not matter.  It is still an issue though.

Agreed, it is an issue.  I dislike extremists of all stripes.  But if the group is as small as you state then they are easily countered by an equally small group of Dems voting against them.  Of course, politics being politics the Dems will demand some concessions for this.  If those concessions are unpalatable to the GOP, then are the Dems not just as responsible for a potential shutdown?  If a shutdown is as bad as we all believe it is, then is it not worth abandoning politics, or even asking for minor concessions to avoid it?

The ultimate point being, if moderates of all stripes can't unite to counter extremists on both sides then the problem isn't the small group of extremists, it's the middle ground people who are unwilling to counter them.

[GMDino]

(09-20-2023, 01:21 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Agreed, it is an issue.  I dislike extremists of all stripes.  But if the group is as small as you state then they are easily countered by an equally small group of Dems voting against them.  Of course, politics being politics the Dems will demand some concessions for this.  If those concessions are unpalatable to the GOP, then are the Dems not just as responsible for a potential shutdown?  If a shutdown is as bad as we all believe it is, then is it not worth abandoning politics, or even asking for minor concessions to avoid it?

The ultimate point being, if moderates of all stripes can't unite to counter extremists on both sides then the problem isn't the small group of extremists, it's the middle ground people who are unwilling to counter them.

TBF, I never said HOW small they are.  

But yes, they need to meet some middle ground somewhere.  I don't see it happening right now though.

McCarthy seems beholden to that group and can't even get votes on budget proposals.

[grampahol]

The puppet Charlie McCarthy formerly known as Kevin sold his soul to the maga crowd and has the spine of an earthworm.. Let's not go pretending the likes of Gates, Greene and Bobert are serious politicians intent on anything even remotely reasonable and McCarthy is in the running for the least effective House speaker since the discovery of air.. maybe even dirt.. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(09-20-2023, 02:00 PM)grampahol Wrote: The puppet Charlie McCarthy formerly known as Kevin sold his soul to the maga crowd and has the spine of an earthworm.. Let's not go pretending the likes of Gates, Greene and Bobert are serious politicians intent on anything even remotely reasonable and McCarthy is in the running for the least effective House speaker since the discovery of air.. maybe even dirt.. 

what do you expect? they are politicians, they will all sell their souls at one point or another

[Luvnit2]

A simple take. Democrats want to maintain Covid levels of spending. Republicans want to get back to pre-Covid spending.

Why does the government need to operate at Covid levels of spending? I think both parties need to look at our 33 trillion dollar debt. How do we start chipping away at this major debt issue if the government continues to spend freely without consequence.

Both parties are guilty, but the parties use the lack of concern by the other party to dupe the american public into believing their party cares about fiscal responsibility. Neither do and that is the issue. They care more about political consequence (both parties) than working a great plan to reduce a 33 trillion dollar deficit.

[Luvnit2]

(09-20-2023, 01:26 PM)GMDino Wrote: TBF, I never said HOW small they are.  

But yes, they need to meet some middle ground somewhere.  I don't see it happening right now though.

McCarthy seems beholden to that group and can't even get votes on budget proposals.

Just an FYI, anything the house decides on the budget, the senate needs to agree on as well. It is the senate where the Dems have control that will approve any final budget.

[NATI BENGALS]

Maybe we should shut it down and fire everybody at the top of all 3 branches of gov.

[Dill]

(09-20-2023, 01:26 PM)GMDino Wrote: TBF, I never said HOW small they are.  

But yes, they need to meet some middle ground somewhere.  I don't see it happening right now though.

McCarthy seems beholden to that group and can't even get votes on budget proposals.

I think a majority of Americans will be able to sort out the blame correctly. 

When pain impends--"both sidesism" gets sorted out pretty quickly.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/09/20/republicans-villains-government-shutdown-00117191

Though agencies have protocols in place for shutdowns, there’s a critical difference about this one: there’s no discernible off-ramp in sight. House GOP leadership has been unable to pass a short-term funding bill amid conservative opposition. Speaker Kevin McCarthy has refused to engage in bipartisan talks so far, since doing so would put his gavel at risk. And even if he manages to pass something with only GOP support, the Democratic-controlled Senate would certainly reject the end product.

Despite McCarthy and President Joe Biden agreeing to topline spending levels in the debt limit negotiations, a faction of conservatives have refused to back a funding bill without additional deep spending cuts. Progress has been painfully elusive, even as some Republicans believe they’re about to take it on the chin.

“I think the governing majority, which is presiding at the time the government shuts down, probably is going to bear a lot of the blame,” said Rep. Steve Womack (R-Ark.). “And we’re the ones with the gavel … it’s our job to run the government.”

Inside the Biden administration, aides view a government shutdown as increasingly likely, if not completely inevitable. And preparations are being made to inflict some measure of political pressure and pain on the GOP once it begins.

[Luvnit2]

(09-21-2023, 02:15 AM)Dill Wrote: I think a majority of Americans will be able to sort out the blame correctly. 

When pain impends--"both sidesism" gets sorted out pretty quickly.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/09/20/republicans-villains-government-shutdown-00117191

Though agencies have protocols in place for shutdowns, there’s a critical difference about this one: there’s no discernible off-ramp in sight. House GOP leadership has been unable to pass a short-term funding bill amid conservative opposition. Speaker Kevin McCarthy has refused to engage in bipartisan talks so far, since doing so would put his gavel at risk. And even if he manages to pass something with only GOP support, the Democratic-controlled Senate would certainly reject the end product.

Despite McCarthy and President Joe Biden agreeing to topline spending levels in the debt limit negotiations, a faction of conservatives have refused to back a funding bill without additional deep spending cuts. Progress has been painfully elusive, even as some Republicans believe they’re about to take it on the chin.

“I think the governing majority, which is presiding at the time the government shuts down, probably is going to bear a lot of the blame,” said Rep. Steve Womack (R-Ark.). “And we’re the ones with the gavel … it’s our job to run the government.”

Inside the Biden administration, aides view a government shutdown as increasingly likely, if not completely inevitable. And preparations are being made to inflict some measure of political pressure and pain on the GOP once it begins.

As it says, anything McCarthy sends to the Senate they will turn down. In my opinion, it is the Democratic senate's job to approve a house proposal. If they don't, the blame should fall into theri lap.

But as I said earlier, all of us should be worried our government debt is over 33 trillion and all of us should demand both sides take major steps to reduce the deficit. Keeping or adding to spending levels will not reduce the debt, just the opposite, it will increase it. The budget now has baked into over 100 billion spent on Ukraine, that would be a great place to start. Cut off funding for a war that the low and middle class in this country can't afford to pay for.

[GMDino]

(09-21-2023, 09:58 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: As it says, anything McCarthy sends to the Senate they will turn down. In my opinion, it is the Democratic senate's job to approve a house proposal. If they don't, the blame should fall into theri lap.

But as I said earlier, all of us should be worried our government debt is over 33 trillion and all of us should demand both sides take major steps to reduce the deficit. Keeping or adding to spending levels will not reduce the debt, just the opposite, it will increase it. The budget now has baked into over 100 billion spent on Ukraine, that would be a great place to start. Cut off funding for a war that the low and middle class in this country can't afford to pay for.

One part of the current situation is McCarthy can't even get anything to a vote because the calls are coming from inside the house.  His own party won't agree with each other let alone Democrats on even just passing a continuance to keep things running.

We can't even get to blame the Democrats for wanting open borders and irresponsible spending yet because the gop can't get anything to them to talk about.

A new part, to me, is it would appear some members are for shutting down the government to protect P01135809...at his request.

[Dill]

(09-21-2023, 09:58 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: As it says, anything McCarthy sends to the Senate they will turn down. In my opinion, it is the Democratic senate's job to approve a house proposal. If they don't, the blame should fall into theri lap.

But as I said earlier, all of us should be worried our government debt is over 33 trillion and all of us should demand both sides take major steps to reduce the deficit. Keeping or adding to spending levels will not reduce the debt, just the opposite, it will increase it. The budget now has baked into over 100 billion spent on Ukraine, that would be a great place to start. Cut off funding for a war that the low and middle class in this country can't afford to pay for.

It's not the job of the Senate to ratify any old bill from the House,

especially one filled with cuts they and their constituents don't support.

They are not hostages to Trump, MTJ and Gaetz, as McCArthy is. And should NOT be.

We do have a way to reduce the debt--increase taxes on the upper quintile.

Sounds like you are saying the U.S. can no longer afford to keep its leadership position

in a world increasingly turning back to authoritarian regimes.

Maybe Russia and China will be our friends if give Putin Ukraine.

Cheaper in the short run, for sure.

[LSUfaninTN]

(09-21-2023, 10:35 AM)Dill Wrote: It's not the job of the Senate to ratify any old bill from the House,

especially one filled with cuts they and their constituents don't support.

They are not hostages to Trump,  MTJ and Gaetz, as McCArthy is. And should NOT be.

We do have a way to reduce the debt--increase taxes on the upper quintile.

Sounds like you are saying the U.S. can no longer afford to keep its leadership position

in a world increasingly turning back to authoritarian regimes.

Maybe Russia and China will be our friends if give Putin Ukraine.

Cheaper in the short run, for sure.

Obviously they will never be our friends. But, if we stopped the funding to Ukraine, A) we save money B) we don’t give Russia and China any more unnecessary reason to be bigger butt buddies than they are C) fewer people die. Just imagine for a second that anyone other than Trump supports ending funding to Ukraine, so that you aren’t automatically programmed to hate the idea. I think you’ll acknowledge that it may be a good idea. 

[*pally*]

The optics will be bad for the Republicans. Sep 28 rhey are holding an "impeachment " inquiry hearing and 2 days later they shut down the government because they can't even get a workable deal to the floor for a vote.
Are they grandstanding or governing?

This flashes back to their campaign to repeal and replace the ACA. After years of promising, they had no bill ready to go. And thus the ACA lives on.

This simply drives home the fact that the current crop of Republicans can't or won't actually govern. Not a good picture heading into an election year

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