Government Shutdown

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-21-2023, 03:58 PM)pally Wrote: still Republican...its the House's job to pass a bill that the Senate will confirm not one that will force their extremist views on everyone.

The House has adjourned until next week.  Man are they working hard trying to get the budget funded

Excuse me?  You literally just said that the House's job is to pass a budget that they know the Senate will confirm.  This is about as wrong as you can get.

Since you need a refresher on civics I will provide one.

https://www.usa.gov/federal-budget-process#:~:text=The%20House%20and%20Senate%20create,president%20to%20sign%20or%20veto.


Creating the U.S. federal budget

The budget planning begins a year before the budget is to go into effect.

1. Federal agencies create budget requests and submit them to the White House Office of Management and Budget (OMB).
2. OMB refers to the agencies’ requests as it develops the budget proposal for the president.
3. The president submits the budget proposal to Congress early the next year.
4. Proposed funding is divided among 12 subcommittees, which hold hearings. Each is responsible for funding for different government functions such as defense spending or energy and water.
5. The House and Senate create their own budget resolutions, which must be negotiated and merged. Both houses must pass a single version of each funding bill.
6. Congress sends the approved funding bills to the president to sign or veto.
   

I'm totally missing the part that says the House has to pass a budget they know the Senate will confirm.  Maybe be a little less blindingly partisan in the future?

[LSUfaninTN]

(09-21-2023, 01:59 PM)Dill Wrote: To B and C

You are again placing profits over principle. And I think it is in part because we measure US power differently; because of that, we have different ideas of what constitutes US power and what maintains or weakens it.

A great part of US "power" is a consequence, not simply of how many aircraft carriers we have, but of our alliances and treaties. The most important ones--with Europe. Japan, Australia and NZ--we maintain by defining and working towards COMMON interests, not just what's good for the U.S. at this moment. People are willing to partner with us, to the point of fighting alongside us, to the degree that we stand for the well being and rights of others as well as our own, i.e., to the point that we, with them, want to secure ends like global trade and international order based on rule of law and human rights.

Japan and our European allies, and many others, don't have the oil resources we do, and so want a peaceful and structured international order which allows them to barter for it without coercion. That makes it important NOT to look the other way when national sovereignty is violated by aggressor nations, and especially when disruption of hydrocarbon resources is leveraged into the aggression. All the more important when the victims of aggression are countries that "don't contribute much," because in those cases it is most clearly about principle.

C) Certainly ceding Ukraine to Russia is different from ceding a NATO ally, whom we are treaty-bound to defend, to Russia. But
I don't see how it is different from ceding the Pacific to the Japanese in 1941, especially if the argument back then were that Singapore is corrupt and the Pacific Islands don't contribute much to the world. We leave a vacuum filled by an aggressor, strengthening him and weakening our allies, who must then negotiate their security with the aggressor, on the aggressor's terms, strengthening him and weakening us.

Trump's already ceded massive diplomatic space to China by pulling out of the Iran Deal and the TPP; that hasn't "saved us money." Rather it has cost us and our diplomatic/trading partners, and sent shock waves through our allies and encouraged Russia and China to step into the vacuum.

Are we talking about Ukraine or Europe? We’re in several different threads here. I never said we shouldn’t honor our treaties with NATO. I said we shouldn’t break the bank for Ukraine. Had we not interfered, there’s absolutely no way our NATO allies would’ve cared. Now we run the risk of looking weak if we back out. Russian hostility would have been a bigger problem when it came to trading had we stayed out of it, but again, that’s why Trump pleaded with European nations to not be dependent on Russia. He was dead on about that issue. Dead on. Just ask Germany.

As far as the WW2 comparison… I don’t think it’s in the same ballpark. You can’t compare the theoretical ceding of control of the Pacific to letting Ukraine fall to Russia. The Pacific was/is the most important ocean in the world. As far as Singapore is concerned, even though it was supposedly corrupt at the time, the US knew if the Japanese maintained control of Singapore that they could disrupt Allies’ supply lines in the region. I should also point out that Guam, Hawaii and the Philippines were of high interest in the US because they were not only strategic locations in the Pacific, but rich in resources (forests, minerals primarily, maybe fish I guess). The US saw big economic upside with Hawaii’s potential for agriculture, trade, as well as being a huge tourism hub. Same with Guam.

And then, there was Pearl Harbor…….

[GMDino]

(09-21-2023, 03:58 PM)pally Wrote: still Republican...its the House's job to pass a bill that the Senate will confirm not one that will force their extremist views on everyone.

The House has adjourned until next week.  Man are they working hard trying to get the budget funded

(09-21-2023, 04:03 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Excuse me?  You literally just said that the House's job is to pass a budget that they know the Senate will confirm.  This is about as wrong as you can get.

Since you need a refresher on civics I will provide one.

Eh, I think you're playing semantics here.  Pally might explain it differently but I read it as the House passes a bill that goes to the Senate that is what they want the Senate to confirm...not that they "know" it will be confirmed.  Most people know the Senate often makes changes and sends the bill back to the house.  In the end, after the back and forth, the House DOES pass a bill that the Senate will confirm.  Although even that isn't always an easy task even after the negotiations.

[Arturo Bandini]

Does this serve people or it's just a political game ?

Because if it makes people's life more difficult, don't expect them to vote for those wanting this mess to happen.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-21-2023, 05:03 PM)GMDino Wrote: Eh, I think you're playing semantics here.  Pally might explain it differently but I read it as the House passes a bill that goes to the Senate that is what they want the Senate to confirm...not that they "know" it will be confirmed.  Most people know the Senate often makes changes and sends the bill back to the house.  In the end, after the back and forth, the House DOES pass a bill that the Senate will confirm.  Although even that isn't always an easy task even after the negotiations.

As one who is quick to call out a semantic argument I can't say I agree.  Her basic premise is that if the Senate, led by the Dems, won't pass what the House sends them that's the GOP's fault.  This is despite both chambers having an equal say and having to ratify the same budget.  Pally is saying if a budget doesn't get passed it's the GOP's fault regardless of which chamber won't ratify the budget.  This is insanely partisan, as stated, and contrary to the process.  If Pally misspoke and says so, then sure.  But what she actually posted is as I described here.

[*pally*]

(09-21-2023, 06:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As one who is quick to call out a semantic argument I can't say I agree.  Her basic premise is that if the Senate, led by the Dems, won't pass what the House sends them that's the GOP's fault.  This is despite both chambers having an equal say and having to ratify the same budget.  Pally is saying if a budget doesn't get passed it's the GOP's fault regardless of which chamber won't ratify the budget.  This is insanely partisan, as stated, and contrary to the process.  If Pally misspoke and says so, then sure.  But what she actually posted is as I described here.

 Spending bills come from the House.  It is their job to initiate the bills.  The Senate cannot initiate a spending bill... that is against the law.  Therefore it is ultimately the job of the House to pass spending bills to fund the government that can also pass the Senate. It usually takes lots of negotiations to get to that point.    As there have only been 4 true government shutdowns in the 234-year history of the USA working under the Constitution,  opposite party-led House and Senates have managed to successfully work together for many many years to pass the funding bills.

This current Republican led House can't even get their act together enough to pass ANYTHING let alone appropriations that will pass the Senate.  Kevin McCarthy can't lead his caucus out of a paper bag.  This shutdown will be 100% on the heads of the House Republicans and everyone who possesses critical thinking skills knows it.  They are too busy in fighting, chasing political ghosts, and sucking up to Trump to actually do their jobs

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-21-2023, 06:53 PM)pally Wrote:  Spending bills come from the House.  It is their job to initiate the bills.  The Senate cannot initiate a spending bill... that is against the law.  Therefore it is ultimately the job of the House to pass spending bills to fund the government that can also pass the Senate. It usually takes lots of negotiations to get to that point.    As there have only been 4 true government shutdowns in the 234-year history of the USA working under the Constitution,  opposite party-led House and Senates have managed to successfully work together for many many years to pass the funding bills.

This current Republican led House can't even get their act together enough to pass ANYTHING let alone appropriations that will pass the Senate.  Kevin McCarthy can't lead his caucus out of a paper bag.  This shutdown will be 100% on the heads of the House Republicans and everyone who possesses critical thinking skills knows it.  They are too busy in fighting, chasing political ghosts, and sucking up to Trump to actually do their jobs

So, Dino was wrong, it was not semantics.  Also, you didn't read the link I posted.  Doubling down on being wrong is an interesting strategy.  You sincerely owe Dino an apology for sticking up for you.

[GMDino]

(09-21-2023, 06:53 PM)pally Wrote:  Spending bills come from the House.  It is their job to initiate the bills.  The Senate cannot initiate a spending bill... that is against the law.  Therefore it is ultimately the job of the House to pass spending bills to fund the government that can also pass the Senate. It usually takes lots of negotiations to get to that point.    As there have only been 4 true government shutdowns in the 234-year history of the USA working under the Constitution,  opposite party-led House and Senates have managed to successfully work together for many many years to pass the funding bills.

This current Republican led House can't even get their act together enough to pass ANYTHING let alone appropriations that will pass the Senate.  Kevin McCarthy can't lead his caucus out of a paper bag.  This shutdown will be 100% on the heads of the House Republicans and everyone who possesses critical thinking skills knows it.  They are too busy in fighting, chasing political ghosts, and sucking up to Trump to actually do their jobs

Yep, this from today.  

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/21/us/politics/mccarthy-spending-house-republicans.html

Quote:Right-Wing Rebels Block Defense Bill Again, Rebuking McCarthy on Spending

It was the second time in a week that hard-right Republicans had defied Speaker Kevin McCarthy on a spending measure, signaling that the G.O.P. was still far from agreement on a bill to fund the government.

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Speaker Kevin McCarthy signaled he had won over some of the holdouts, but a handful of Republicans broke with their party to oppose the routine measure.Credit...Kenny Holston/The New York Times




By Annie Karni and Carl Hulse
Reporting from the Capitol
Sept. 21, 2023Updated 6:41 p.m. ET
Right-wing House Republicans dealt another stunning rebuke to Speaker Kevin McCarthy on Thursday, blocking a Pentagon funding bill for the second time this week in a vivid display of G.O.P. disunity on federal spending that threatens to lead to a government shutdown in nine days.

Just hours after Mr. McCarthy signaled he had won over some of the holdouts and was ready to move forward, a handful of Republicans broke with their party to oppose a routine measure to allow the military appropriations bill to come to the House floor for debate, joining with Democrats to defeat it.

It was a major black eye for Mr. McCarthy, who has on multiple occasions admonished his members in private for taking the rare step of bringing down such measures, known as rules, proposed by their own party — a previously unheard-of tactic.
And it signaled continuing right-wing resistance to funding the government, even after the speaker had capitulated Wednesday night to demands from hard-right Republicans for deeper spending cuts as part of any bill to prevent a shutdown on Oct. 1.

By Thursday afternoon, lawmakers were flying home for the weekend, scrapping plans to stay in session to pass spending legislation after a week in which they were unable to make any progress toward resolving their impasse.

“This is a whole new concept of individuals that just want to burn the whole place down,” Mr. McCarthy said on Thursday. “It doesn’t work.”

To try to satisfy those who said they would not vote for any stopgap bill, Republicans were coalescing behind a plan for next week to try to advance three or four of the annual appropriations bills containing steep spending cuts demanded by the hard right as a show of good faith to the conservatives. That approach would do nothing to avert a shutdown, since the Senate has not passed any appropriations bills, so there would be no chance for them to become law before funding runs out on Sept. 30.

A Divided Congress

• Spending Bill: A handful of far-right conservatives in the House have been leading a major rebellion against Speaker Kevin McCarthy as a potential government shutdown looms.
  
• Biden Impeachment Case: McCarthy ordered an impeachment inquiry into President Biden, putting into motion the third formal bid by Congress to remove a president in the past four years. “The Daily” explains the unique realities behind this one.
  
• Senate Dress Code: The decision by Senator Chuck Schumer, the majority leader, to relax the Senate’s informal dress code and allow members to wear casual attire has set off waves of consternation and cries of dismay in the stuffy upper chamber.
  
  

Still, some House Republicans appeared ready to plow ahead.

“We’ve got to do our job,” said Representative Chip Roy, Republican of Texas. “That’s it — it’s that simple.”
Democrats were left shocked at the level of dysfunction across the aisle.

“Just really a collapse,” declared Representative Rosa DeLauro of Connecticut, the senior Democrat on the Appropriations Committee. “There really isn’t any leadership.”

Representative James E. Clyburn of South Carolina, a member of Democratic leadership, said he had never before seen a speaker lose a rule vote so many times — three times in four months, and twice this week alone — something that had not happened for two decades before Mr. McCarthy assumed the post.



“I don’t quite understand this,” Mr. Clyburn said of Mr. McCarthy’s strategy, before suggesting he consider cutting a deal with the top House Democrat that could pass both chambers and keep the government open. “My advice is, ‘Go sit down with Hakeem Jeffries.’ If he’s got a solid majority of his caucus, why wouldn’t he? This is the tail wagging the dog. That’s not the way to do it.”

But Mr. McCarthy is keenly aware that if he were to turn to Democrats for help funding the government, he would face a right-wing effort to remove him from his post.

On Thursday, the final vote was 216 to 212 against the rule to allow the military spending measure to proceed. All Democrats voted against it, given their opposition to the funding levels in the bill and other provisions that were added by Republicans who say they need to eliminate “woke” policies in the military.

Joining in the Republican defections were Representatives Andy Biggs of Arizona, Dan Bishop of North Carolina, Eli Crane of Arizona, Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia and Matt Rosendale of Montana. Representative Tom Cole of Oklahoma, the chairman of the Rules Committee and an ally of Mr. McCarthy, ultimately voted “no” as well so that he would have the ability to request that the vote be reconsidered, a step he took immediately after it was defeated.

But with the House in chaos, leaders quickly asked for a recess to regroup, and it was not clear when they would try again. Mr. McCarthy and his top allies spent the rest of the day in closed-door meetings with members of various factions of the conference, desperately trying to find consensus on what was ultimately nothing more than an attempt at a messaging bill. The spending cuts they were negotiating had no chance of passage in the Democratic-controlled Senate.


In a sign of the complex and confounding resistance Mr. McCarthy is facing within his own party, the group of defectors on Thursday was slightly different from the five who broke with the G.O.P. to oppose the same measure two days earlier.
Ms. Greene, who has emerged as a McCarthy ally in this Congress and supported the debt ceiling bill he negotiated with President Biden, on Tuesday had voted with her party on the rule. But she said online that she voted against it on Thursday because it contained funding for the war in Ukraine.

“Our Defense bill should not fund our DOD for blood money for the Ukraine war, that’s why I’m a NO,” she wrote on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter.

Ms. Greene was also aligned with hard-right Republicans who made it clear they planned to stand in opposition to Mr. McCarthy’s latest stopgap funding proposal, even after he bowed to their demands for steep spending cuts that stood little chance of surviving in the Senate. The group, which included at least seven Republicans, appeared to be large enough to defeat it given the party’s tiny majority, which allows for no more than four defections if all Democrats vote in opposition.

Ms. Greene’s vote Thursday morning came just hours after former President Donald J. Trump weighed in for the first time on the spending fight, using his social media website to encourage Republicans to vote against a temporary funding measure to avert the shutdown of a government he accused of being weaponized against him.


“They failed on the debt limit, but they must not fail now,” Mr. Trump wrote, referring to right-wing opposition to the deal Mr. McCarthy made with Mr. Biden to avert a federal debt default.

The problems with the defense measure were only the most immediate challenge. On Thursday, a group of hard-right Republicans made it clear that they would oppose any stopgap funding plan, no matter what Mr. McCarthy offered them. The group included those who blocked the military spending measure — Mr. Biggs, Mr. Crane, Mr. Rosendale, Mr. Bishop — and others, including Representative Matt Gaetz of Florida, the ringleader of the Republican opposition to Mr. McCarthy’s plans.

Representative Tim Burchett, Republican of Tennessee, compared passage of a stopgap measure known as a continuing resolution to feeding a drug addiction and said he did not intend to back one under any circumstances.

“We’re going to keep passing the C.R., and guess what? We are going to pass another C.R.,” he said, calling the prospect “ridiculous.”

Representative Anna Paulina Luna, Republican of Florida, wrote defiantly on the X platform: “I saw what happened with the debt ceiling. I saw what happened with negotiations & the senate. HOLD THE LINE #NOCR”

Though I did see a Twitter post from a reporter covering DC that they may call them back for another vote over the weekend.

[GMDino]

Gaetz says his biggest concern right now with their divided caucus is that House Dems have 213 signatures on a clean CR, and if they get just 5 moderate Republicans to join them it will pass “like shit through a goose.” pic.twitter.com/nBARZWeiR9

— Ron Filipkowski (@RonFilipkowski) September 22, 2023

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[Mike M (the other one)]

(09-21-2023, 02:06 PM)Dill Wrote: It's a start, right?

Think of how much the debt rose after the Trump tax cuts.

You need to answer the question. Give me an estimate, there's some out there. I want YOU to see how much it really is.

[Dill]

(09-21-2023, 03:27 PM)basballguy Wrote: some of the logic in this thread is a little mind blowing.  

The vote goes 212-216 but that handful of republicans are the ones trying to cause a shutdown...not the 200 democrats that also voted against it.  

SMH

Yes. What is the alternative again?

[GMDino]

This should easily pass and then pass the Senate too. 

House GOP is demanding - or else they’ll shut down the government - that the following be cut 27%:
-Social Security Administration
-Nutrition assistance for poor newborns
-Money to ensure our drinking water is safe
-Most federal education money
-Federal cancer and stroke research https://t.co/uujmLEPDk3

— Bobby Kogan (@BBKogan) September 23, 2023

<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[CKwi88]

(09-23-2023, 09:03 PM)GMDino Wrote: This should easily pass and then pass the Senate too. 

House GOP is demanding - or else they’ll shut down the government - that the following be cut 27%:
-Social Security Administration
-Nutrition assistance for poor newborns
-Money to ensure our drinking water is safe
-Most federal education money
-Federal cancer and stroke research https://t.co/uujmLEPDk3

— Bobby Kogan (@BBKogan) September 23, 2023

<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

God damn Dems being unreasonable. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(09-21-2023, 08:08 PM)GMDino Wrote: Though I did see a Twitter post from a reporter covering DC that they may call them back for another vote over the weekend.

IMHO NONE of them on either side (House/Senate) should be allowed to leave until it's done. Especially if there is a deadline and they don't appear that they will make it on time.  

But i do like the plan where they would try to pass a bill where everything stays open on a more permanent basis (no shutdowns) and then they can argue about the spending side.

[CKwi88]

(09-24-2023, 09:47 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: IMHO NONE of them on either side (House/Senate) should be allowed to leave until it's done. Especially if there is a deadline and they don't appear that they will make it on time.  

But i do like the plan where they would try to pass a bill where everything stays open on a more permanent basis (no shutdowns) and then they can argue about the spending side.

This is a sentiment that just about anybody should be able to get behind. Deadlines should also coincide with their breaks and holidays. Don't get your job done? No state work period or Holiday vacation.

[Arturo Bandini]

Here's a list of people ( real people ) impacted :


? Military & law enforcement officers will be forced to work w/out a paycheck.

? Air traffic controllers & TSA Officers would have to work w/out a paycheck - leading to significant delays at airports across the country as in previous shutdowns.

?FEMA’s disaster relief funds may face depletion during hurricane season, and long-term recovery projects will be halted.

?Head Start grants paused - affecting 10,000 children across the country.

?WIC assistance for women & children, including 7 million pregnant and postpartum women, may run out of funding — putting them at risk.

?Food safety will be undermined due to a delay in safety inspections across the country.

?Infrastructure projects across the country will be delayed.

?EPA-led inspections at hazardous waste-sites as well as drinking water and chemical facilities will stop.

?The Small Business Administration will not accept, review, or approve any new small business loans across the country.

?(OSHA) will be forced to limit workplace inspections.

I'm not really sure it will be very popular.

[*Nately120*]

Got my first official "heads up" email about this today.

[*pally*]

(09-25-2023, 03:35 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Here's a list of people ( real people ) impacted :


? Military & law enforcement officers will be forced to work w/out a paycheck.

? Air traffic controllers & TSA Officers would have to work w/out a paycheck - leading to significant delays at airports across the country as in previous shutdowns.

?FEMA’s disaster relief funds may face depletion during hurricane season, and long-term recovery projects will be halted.

?Head Start grants paused - affecting 10,000 children across the country.

?WIC assistance for women & children, including 7 million pregnant and postpartum women, may run out of funding — putting them at risk.

?Food safety will be undermined due to a delay in safety inspections across the country.

?Infrastructure projects across the country will be delayed.

?EPA-led inspections at hazardous waste-sites as well as drinking water and chemical facilities will stop.

?The Small Business Administration will not accept, review, or approve any new small business loans across the country.

?(OSHA) will be forced to limit workplace inspections.

I'm not really sure it will be very popular.

but don't worry the impeachment inquiry will continue...Congress gets paid

[Dill]

(09-23-2023, 09:03 PM)GMDino Wrote: -Federal cancer and stroke research

I don't have cancer. So what. 

The government should not be in the business of picking winners and losers.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(09-25-2023, 05:49 PM)pally Wrote: but don't worry the impeachment inquiry will continue...Congress gets paid

LOL even if they didn't get paid do you honestly think it would matter to the boys and girls in the millionaires club?