Graduation Stories

[*bfine32*]

(05-22-2019, 01:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The University started the problem by inviting speaker who was more concerned with pimping Donald Trump than talking about the students.

  

I've stated Pence wouldn't the best choice. 

Have you read the actual transcript? He mentions his boss three times and only states his name twice. Once to extend the congratulations of POTUS, once to acknowledge his support National Defense on Armed Forces Day, and once to motivate them about the job market they are entering. The rest of the speech is about the students, their faith, and their future.

The fact that you and others classify that as "more concerned with pimping Donald Trump than talking about the students." or a political speech is absolutely the root of the real problem here.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-21-2019, 08:21 PM)Dill Wrote: I think that is exactly it. You have difficulty understanding/imagining other kinds of organizational relationships.

So the inner workings of universities, the ideals and codes by which they work, are a mystery to you--though maybe not much longer as they continue adopting corporate (TQM)models of management, replace tenure with non-tenure tracks, become dependent upon corporate grants, and expand administration to the point they outnumber faculty.

If you are curious as to why your "employee" model doesn't (or shouldn't) apply to universities, recall the post above where I note that it is faculty, not administration, who decide who should be hired or promoted, what students should learn, and whether they have learned it.  It is the administration's job to make sure the classrooms are heated in winter, there are enough beds in the dorm, and the English dept. has funding for a Medievalist. It is NOT to police faculty/student politics.

And when administrations cross the line, it is the duty of faculty to step forward and hold their "employers" (lol) accountable. Make them step down, if necessary. Tenure was created to protect faculty from employers --private and public alike--who think THEY should run the university and faculty are simply employees. But faculty are custodians of knowledge and tradition, and to be protected as such.THEY are the university; they MAKE the university a university, not the administrators. Administrators come and go. And are not tenured.

Sure, you could not run the postal service this way, or a chain of fast food restaurants, or a branch of the military.  Because a university is different from churches, government institutions, the military, and business, different because its "employees" are tasked with teaching higher order knowledge and modes of inquiry, and to do so must have autonomy (non-interference) from those who do not know how to teach that knowledge or those modes, who don't know what's required. I.e., those you call "employers."

I understand all of this, and have no issues with peaceful protests in the appropriate time/place for one.

To me, commencement does not fall into that category. The reactions on that day are merely a reflection of the teachings at the school.

Maybe by saying it that way makes my POV make more sense?

[GMDino]

(05-22-2019, 12:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The title of the thread is Graduate Stories so I think where it happened mattered in my scenario. But you did solve the mystery whether you were ignoring here it happened on purpose or accidentally. You're changing the whole issue to I'm upset they criticized their employer, while I've constantly said nothing wrong with it in the proper forum. My view would be unchanged if the walked out on a Clinton. 

So in synapse: You are arguing a point not made. Something that is very prevalent around here. 

(05-20-2019, 02:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 3 caught my eye over the weekend:

https://people.com/politics/students-faculty-walk-out-of-mike-pence-commencement-address/


Really have no problem with the kids walking out. They're just short-changing themselves, but the faculty should be disciplined.

(05-20-2019, 05:56 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I can't force my employees to do as I instruct for a job related duty? Boy will my employees be happy the next time I tell them they have to attend another briefing. 

(05-20-2019, 05:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've never denied my position that educators should not share their political bias while at school functions. 

I guess we just kinda differ on that. 

(05-20-2019, 08:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: A tenured Professor can be dismissed for failure to do their job (negligence) so I'm pretty sure they can be disciplined for it. 

(05-20-2019, 09:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Just seems like a good time to take a sick day instead of publicly defying your employer. 

(05-20-2019, 11:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No doubt, we all can't be experts on everything. But to me one of their implied duties would be to attend the school's graduation ceremony. Pence gave pretty much the same speech at Liberty the week prior. Do you know why that one wasn't political?

Members of the staff and student body didn't make it so. 

But you've already indicated you're good with educators sharing their political bias while on the clock. Perhaps that's part of what their job "really is".

(05-21-2019, 01:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: When you are salaried and representing an organization you are "on the clock". Taylor is a Christian University and Pence is known as a high-profile devout Christian. You nor anyone else knew if the speech was to be political; as they walked out before a word was uttered. If Pence kept his comments to Religious views then he, nor the administrators made it political; however, the ones that walked out did, because they disagree with his politics.

We will further disagree that part of an educator's job is to make known their political bias.

(05-21-2019, 01:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So they walked out because they disagreed with an employer's decision.

(05-21-2019, 01:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As I said: I have 0 issue with the kids walking out. The employees had no business "upstaging" their employer and should be disciplined. If you don't agree with the decision either suck it up and do your job or stay away.

(05-21-2019, 03:30 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1&2: It is why I said it would be a good day to take a sick day. When you come with the intent of publicly demonstrating against your employer's (pretty sure that's the right word; although, I've been corrected) decisions. IMO you reap what you sow.

3. No you don't. It only becomes a political event when politics are discussed or in this case select students and faculty choose to make it so before a single word was uttered. If they would have stayed and walked out once Pence turned political then they may have a point; although, I probably still disagree with it but that's a personal bias.

4. And I've read most were happy to have him there and even made "I Like Mike" T-Shirts, but the point is moot. The University invited someone they wanted to speak at a graduation and some got mad because their thoughts were "ignored". As I said I have 0 issue with the kids walking out; they ruined their own day. But what about that kid that remained and saw one of his/her favorite professors leave? Who short-changed him/her?

(05-21-2019, 05:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And as I've said constantly. It would have been a good day to use a sick day. You're not supporting the speaker you're supporting your institution and the students. I've listened to many folks I disagree with. 

I don't how many times I can say Pence was not a wise choice for speaker, but none of that excuses the employees' behavior. But I'm a conservative with a focus on business workings. I can see how a Liberal with a focus on social workings could differ. 

IMO these employees defied their employer and should be disciplined. To what level can be argued. 

(05-22-2019, 10:31 AM)bfine32 Wrote: As I've said I have 0 issue with members of the audience expressing their dissent publicly.  My issue is with the staff doing so and how the university should discipline such acts of overt criticism of the institution on the day of celebration.  

Other applaud it, I condemn it. but disagreement is what makes the board go round.  

Yep.  Not upset about the employee criticizing the employer.  Nope.  Not at all.

(05-22-2019, 12:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So in synapse: You are arguing a point not made. Something that is very prevalent around here. 

[BmorePat87]

(05-22-2019, 10:17 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: The difference between a public and private university is only that a public university has the potential to infringe on the right to free speech. Neither type of university should do it. They are both there for the free exchange of ideas and that includes the freedom to dissent and protest.

Commencement speeches shouldn't be political. Speakers at those events should take that into account. Other times at the university? Fine. It should be a place for that exchange of ideas. But a commencement address should be about encouragement, congratulations, moving on to the real world, etc. It should be about the graduates, not about politics. Pence's speech was political, and it was written before anyone stood up and walked out.

Were Pence there at the university to talk about things for any other purpose, I would be saying that those protesting him even being there were in the wrong, that he should be able to express his views and engage in that discussion. Commencement is not the place for that, though, and those that protested have every right to do so. Protesting is about making a public statement, and staying home doesn't send the same message as walking out, not applauding, or turning your back. That is free expression, something all universities, public and private, should foster. If you're going to bring in a contentious, political speaker for an event like this, then you should be willing to allow for the expression of dissent by those in the audience.

I don't even care about the speech. I commented on people trying to compare schools and universities to corporations and the business world. 

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2019, 01:53 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: As far as respect goes, Pence has accomplished a lot and like his views or not his position should be respect.

Pence supports discrimination against the LGBTQ community. He deserves no respect no matter what position he holds.

This "respect the leader no matter what" is popular in North Korea and Iran, but it is bull shit in a free country.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-22-2019, 02:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Pence supports discrimination against the LGBTQ community. He deserves no respect no matter what position he holds.

This "respect the leader no matter what" is popular in North Korea and Iran, but it is bull shit in a free country.

So it's ok for me to have Zero respect for you since you are a lawyer and put in a lot of extra schooling and who cares if you passed the BAR. Just cause I don't like your views on certain things.

Is that what you are trying to say?
If so, Got it.

[Belsnickel]

(05-22-2019, 02:37 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I don't even care about the speech. I commented on people trying to compare schools and universities to corporations and the business world. 

I know. The first part of that post was what really was aimed at your conversation. The rest is just me blathering on.

[Dill]

(05-22-2019, 02:12 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I understand all of this, and have no issues with peaceful protests in the appropriate time/place for one.

To me, commencement does not fall into that category. The reactions on that day are merely a reflection of the teachings at the school.

Maybe by saying it that way makes my POV make more sense?

Not sure.

Minimal, non-violent protests are pretty acceptable on most campuses, even at graduation. Think of a scale here in which one goes from wearing a small indication of protest, like a Democrat/Hillary button, to walking out, to heckling, to throwing things and damaging property.  This protest seems acceptable, appropriate for a graduation ceremony.

If the reactions of student faculty reflect the teachings of the school, then it looks like they thought out and enacted a peaceful protest.  They refused to normalize a Trump vice-president.  From my POV--good teaching.

I don't much like these kinds of protest. I like to debate, articulate rather than "symbolize."  But were I a faculty member at Taylor, I believe I'd have joined the group walking out. 

The only unusual here is that this walkout was at an evangelical university, where students are generally more submissive to authority.  E.g. students at Liberty University chose a more quiet means of protesting Trump's speech there--sending back their diplomas.

[*bfine32*]

(05-22-2019, 02:29 PM)GMDino Wrote:















Yep.  Not upset about the employee criticizing the employer.  Nope.  Not at all.

All the partial bolding of quotes aside; it's obvious my issue was with where and how it was done. You can agree with the point, disagree with the point or move on. I have 0 idea why you and others try so hard. 

[*bfine32*]

(05-22-2019, 02:37 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I don't even care about the speech. I commented on people trying to compare schools and universities to corporations and the business world. 

There was no "trying". IMO private Universities are businesses; they succeed/fail on the amount of revenue (endowments) they bring in. It's the main way they differ from public Universities. You, Matt, Dill, and others are free to disagree. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-21-2019, 05:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And as I've said constantly. It would have been a good day to use a sick day. You're not supporting the speaker you're supporting your institution and the students. I've listened to many folks I disagree with. 

I don't how many times I can say Pence was not a wise choice for speaker, but none of that excuses the employees' behavior. But I'm a conservative with a focus on business workings. I can see how a Liberal with a focus on social workings could differ. 

IMO these employees defied their employer and should be disciplined. To what level can be argued. 

I thought you did HR for the Army.  That's not what I would consider business in the traditional sense.

Did these employees violate their contract?

It's always puzzled me why someone would volunteer to risk their life to protect the freedoms of someone they don't even know, yet begrudge them the exercise of those freedoms because of . . . business.

[BmorePat87]

(05-22-2019, 08:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: There was no "trying". IMO private Universities are businesses; they succeed/fail on the amount of revenue (endowments) they bring in. It's the main way they differ from public Universities. You, Matt, Dill, and others are free to disagree. 

Yes, two people in education will continue to disagree with your attempts to ignore decades of recent history and the culture of learning institutions as you try to compare a professor walking out of a political speech to an employee refusing to do his job. 

[Belsnickel]

(05-22-2019, 08:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: There was no "trying". IMO private Universities are businesses; they succeed/fail on the amount of revenue (endowments) they bring in. It's the main way they differ from public Universities. You, Matt, Dill, and others are free to disagree. 

In all seriousness, the attempt to treat education as business is what has led to the decline in education in this country. There is a considerable correlation between those two things. There are decisions that have to be made like a business at schools, that can't be denied, but things like this aren't among them. This is in the realm of the provost, whereas the comptroller is the one that should be focusing on business activities.

[*bfine32*]

(05-23-2019, 08:20 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: In all seriousness, the attempt to treat education as business is what has led to the decline in education in this country. There is a considerable correlation between those two things. There are decisions that have to be made like a business at schools, that can't be denied, but things like this aren't among them. This is in the realm of the provost, whereas the comptroller is the one that should be focusing on business activities.

And failing to treat them as a business has been the demise of a few. If if I recall from an earlier conversation you are very involved in the business side of higher education. And if you remember from that same conversation, so am I.

To state there's not a difference in the way a public and private institution are funded is absurd and it is the biggest difference. If I am a big endower at a private institution and I have heartburn with staff faculty walking out on my school, a fellow christian, my former Governor, and current VP. It has a tremendous greater impact than if I'm that same person at a public university.  And the private institution may be much more motivated to give me satisfaction.

[*bfine32*]

(05-23-2019, 08:16 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Yes, two people in education will continue to disagree with your attempts to ignore decades of recent history and the culture of learning institutions as you try to compare a professor walking out of a political speech to an employee refusing to do his job. 

I ignoring nothing and Disagree all you want, but if you work at a private institution; I'd recommend you be prepared to reap the consequences of your actions and what exactly your job duties may entail. It's all in the wording: You say they walked out on a political speech and I say they walked out on a school function.

[*bfine32*]

(05-22-2019, 09:26 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I thought you did HR for the Army.  That's not what I would consider business in the traditional sense.

Did these employees violate their contract?

It's always puzzled me why someone would volunteer to risk their life to protect the freedoms of someone they don't even know, yet begrudge them the exercise of those freedoms because of . . . business.

Of course HR is business in the traditional sense. I don't know if they violated their contract; however, at a private Christian institution I wouldn't be surprised if they were required to sign some sort of morality agreement.  Does failing to support; moreover, showing insolence toward your organization at one of their public-facing functions violate that agreement? IDK. But if it does not whomever wrote it is an idiot.

[fredtoast]

(05-23-2019, 05:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course HR is business in the traditional sense. I don't know if they violated their contract; however, at a private Christian institution I wouldn't be surprised if they were required to sign some sort of morality agreement.  Does failing to support; moreover, showing insolence toward your organization at one of their public-facing functions violate that agreement? IDK. But if it does not whomever wrote it is an idiot.

Actually anyone who thinks political protest is "immoral" is an idiot.

But you are allowed to think that way.

[*bfine32*]

(05-23-2019, 06:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually anyone who thinks political protest is "immoral" is an idiot.

But you are allowed to think that way.

I don't think political protest is immoral. But that's not what happened here; they protested their institution. 

But you're entitled to your opinion.

[Belsnickel]

(05-23-2019, 05:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And failing to treat them as a business has been the demise of a few. If if I recall from an earlier conversation you are very involved in the business side of higher education. And if you remember from that same conversation, so am I.

I am very much involved in the business side of academia, which is why I understand that some things are business decisions, and some things should not be.

(05-23-2019, 05:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: To state there's not a difference in the way a public and private institution are funded is absurd and it is the biggest difference.

I don't think anyone said that.

(05-23-2019, 05:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If I am a big endower at a private institution and I have heartburn with staff faculty walking out on my school, a fellow christian, my former Governor, and current VP. It has a tremendous greater impact than if I'm that same person at a public university.  And the private institution may be much more motivated to give me satisfaction.

And this is why academia is failing. It's the same premise as lobbyists ruling the roost in our government. This inhibits the free exchange of ideas in academia which results in its decline. Institutions should be seeking out donors that value higher education, and if a donor would withhold funds for something like this then they do not value what it is all about.

[*bfine32*]

(05-23-2019, 09:58 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: 1. I am very much involved in the business side of academia, which is why I understand that some things are business decisions, and some things should not be.


2. I don't think anyone said that.


3. And this is why academia is failing. It's the same premise as lobbyists ruling the roost in our government. This inhibits the free exchange of ideas in academia which results in its decline. Institutions should be seeking out donors that value higher education, and if a donor would withhold funds for something like this then they do not value what it is all about.

1. And IMO choosing to be insolent against your university in something as public-facing as a Graduation Ceremony hurts business and those that walked out have no business (pun intended) making that decision.

2. I thought you did in an earlier post (#49)

3. Absolutely nothing wrong with a free exchange of ideas in academia; but there is a thing known as decorum. I think some in this thread are ignoring (funny that I'm the only one been accused of ignoring anything) the actual event in an attempt to push their ideology. 

 My only assertion and the one that has been called into question is that the faculty members that defied the university in such a public forum should be disciplined. I've never stated what that discipline should be, but it should be reprimand at a minimum.