Grope a dope: Trump is on the ropes now

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-11-2016, 05:01 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Okay fine you didn't call him a rapist, so let me rephrase..... BECAUSE HE'S NOT A GOD DAMN SEXUAL ASSAULTER. I dunno, just doesn't roll as nicely off the tongue, but it'll do.

How many GOD DAMN SEXUAL ASSAULTERS don't have the common sense not to sexually assault their victim while being filmed for an Access Hollywood segment?

Do you go to college or have you been to college?

[*bfine32*]

(10-11-2016, 05:42 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: apparently some demented perverts interpret '***** oneself' completely different logistically.  they feel it necessary to involve blades and such.

Nope, just penetration. Different than jerking off, which is what you are Pat are describing and doing to each other.  

[Vas Deferens]

(10-11-2016, 06:06 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nope, just penetration. Different than jerking off, which is what you are Pat are describing and doing to each other.  

what was that about the gutter and what not?  

[Dill]

(10-11-2016, 02:58 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Bingo. 

This is the heart of the matter. You don't even know what consent is. Many victims of work place sexual harassment and/or assault may not speak out for fear of retaliation. If you kiss one of your co-workers and they don't object that doesn't mean they "let you do it."

I agree. One of the tenets of "rape culture" seems to be that unless a woman goes to the police she has consented to whatever was done to her.

Trump says he was grabbing women and they let him because he was a celebrity. It appears he assumed consent or passivity ahead of time. Since he is not asking "May I grab your XXXXXXX" in advance, why shouldn't we assume that he was groping without consent in at least some cases, and that at least SOME woman did say no?

Another consideration is his position as "boss" in some cases, or with considerable power in places like the set of the Apprentice. Some woman might have been afraid to resist or confused.

[Rotobeast]

(10-11-2016, 05:42 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: apparently some demented perverts interpret '***** oneself' completely different logistically.  they feel it necessary to involve blades and such.

Well.... some of the lil' fellers can't tuck it back and reach.


Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

[Matt_Crimson]

(10-11-2016, 05:57 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: How many GOD DAMN SEXUAL ASSAULTERS don't have the common sense not to sexually assault their victim while being filmed for an Access Hollywood segment?

Do you go to college or have you been to college?

I've been to college, but I didn't need to go to college to have common sense.

I dont understand what you're getting at here. You asked me why do I think he didon't grab her by the *****. My answer was because he's not a sexual assaulter. I'm not saying if he was a sexual assaulter he would have sexuallly assaulted her on camera. I'm saying just because the cameras were rolling does not mean he only didn't sexually assault her because he knew the cameras were watching him.  He didn't sexually assault her because hes not a "God damn sexual assaulter". You're trying to say if the cameras weren't there he would have sexually assaulted her because he's a sexual assaulter. And I'm saying he's not a sexual assaulter, therefore the cameras do not matter.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-11-2016, 05:00 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: I'm wondering this myself.

Bfine, has told me previously he doesn't have to answer any questions if the answer involves a fact one can look up on their own.  But, I'll make an exception for you.

There are countless university and corporate policies that deal with sexual assault and harassment along with various state and federal laws.  Consent is a subtopic under the larger umbrella of sexual assault and sexual harassment.

This policy specifically addresses silence or immobility.  If Donald Trump grabbed a Miss USA pageant contestant's ***** and Donald Trump were to claim she "let" him because he is a celebrity and she didn't object afterwards doesn't mean she consented.  She might not say anything for fear of reprisals.

Everyone here has a mother, sister, wife, daughter, niece, or at least a female friend.  I feel fairly confident most, if not all, would object to a man inappropriately grabbing their *****.  I think it is important as husbands, brothers, fathers, uncles, or at least a friend, we as men understand that if a female we care about doesn't immediately object to inappropriate sexual behavior that doesn't mean they consented to "let" someone grab their *****.

As a father of a son, I want to make damn sure he knows about consent so A) he doesn't get into legal trouble and B) and I know I raised a decent human being whom I can be proud.

I'm just really surprised at some of the stuff I'm reading in here from the god-fearing crowd.  I'm not even calling Trump a rapist.  All I've done is acknowledge that what Trump described in the video is sexual assault and I've tried to help other people understand . . . because I have a daughter and I can't be there 24/7 to protect against her dumbasses who don't have the first clue what consent, sexual harassment, or sexual assault is who are passing on their stupidity to their dumbass sons.  It's ***** ridiculous.

[*bfine32*]

(10-11-2016, 06:15 PM)Dill Wrote: I agree. One of the tenets of "rape culture" seems to be that unless a woman goes to the police she has consented to whatever was done to her.

Trump says he was grabbing women and they let him because he was a celebrity. It appears he assumed consent or passivity ahead of time. Since he is not asking "May I grab your XXXXXXX" in advance, why shouldn't we assume that he was groping without consent in at least some cases, and that at least SOME woman did say no?

Another consideration is his position as "boss" in some cases, or with considerable power in places like the set of the Apprentice. Some woman might have been afraid to resist or confused.

To the bold: Perhaps presumed innocence; not guilt. I think I've heard that somewhere before.

As to the Apprentice, if it is found that he used his authority to take sexual liberties; then he should be further investigated. However, his words (they many are using to condemn him) actually help him here. As he said "because you're a star", not because I have authority over them.

Please understand the difference between referent power (star power) and legitimate power (authority)

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-11-2016, 06:29 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I've been to college, but I didn't need to go to college to have common sense.

I dont understand what you're getting at here. You asked me why do I think he didon't grab her by the *****. My answer was because he's not a sexual assaulter. I'm not saying if he was a sexual assaulter he would have sexuallly assaulted her on camera. I'm saying just because the cameras were rolling does not mean he only didn't sexually assault her because he knew the cameras were watching him.  He didn't sexually assault her because hes not a "God damn sexual assaulter". You're trying to say if the cameras weren't there he would have sexually assaulted her because he's a sexual assaulter. And I'm saying he's not a sexual assaulter, therefore the cameras do not matter.

Look, you asked the question regarding why didn't Trump kiss the lady until after he got Billy Bush's "permission.  My answer is he didn't kiss her inappropriately on camera for the same reason he didn't inappropriately grab her ***** on camera.  That's common sense.  If you don't understand the answer then you don't have common sense.  I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

If you have been to college, your university should have a policy regarding sexual harassment or sexual assault.  Within that policy, there should be a discussion about what does and does not constitute consent.  I've already posted an example for Rotobeast.  I highly, highly suggest you read it.  Because you clearly don't understand.

"When you're a star they let you do it" is an assumption of consent based upon his celebrity. One's celebrity doesn't confer carte blante ***** grabbing power. If he did the things he claimed he did, but later recanted, then he doesn't know if they consented or objected if they just stood there and did nothing, said nothing. In addition to being an assumption, it is a rationalization for his actions. Donald Trump thinks he can grab a woman's ***** and the "let" him do it because he is a celebrity. He and you and others here believe if a woman were to just stand there and not do or say anything afterwards then  that woman "let" Donald grab her ***** because she didn't do anything which in your minds constitutes consent. But, that isn't necessarily true. Many perpetrators of sexual harassment rationalize their behavior. 

[*bfine32*]

(10-11-2016, 06:09 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: what was that about the gutter and what not?  

Just using Pat's words. At least I didn't call someone a pervert. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-11-2016, 06:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: To the bold: Perhaps presumed innocence; not guilt. I think I've heard that somewhere before.

Donald Trump is presumed innocent.  How can Jane Doe prove Donald Trump grabbed her ***** like you heard him claim he does?  It's her word against his.

Quote:As to the Apprentice, if it is found that he used his authority to take sexual liberties; then he should be further investigated. However, his words (they many are using to condemn him) actually help him here. As he said "because you're a star", not because I have authority over them.

If we can't condemn Donald Trump for Donald Trump's words, whose words are we supposed to condemn him for?  Your words?  Why should we condemn Donald Trump for anyone's words except his own?

Quote:Please understand the difference between referent power (star power) and legitimate power (authority)

You can put whatever adjective in front of power you want, power is power.  Do you think a "celebrity" like Donald Trump could have a woman fired from their job if they complained he grabbed their ***** even if they didn't work for him?

[Matt_Crimson]

Quote:Look, you asked the question regarding why didn't Trump kiss the lady until after he got Billy Bush's "permission.  My answer is he didn't kiss her inappropriately on camera for the same reason he didn't inappropriately grab her ***** on camera.  That's common sense.  If you don't understand the answer then you don't have common sense.  I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

When did I say anything about him kissing her inappropriately on camera? I was asking if Donald Trump is such a big sexual assaulter and everyone keeps talking about how "He said it himself he can't control himself around women" why then did he show so much restraint when a woman actually came around him? Your answer obviously is "because he was on camera". But I thought he was just this uncontrollable sexual assaulter? He didn't even attempt to hug her or compliment her on her looks but is supposedly some big pervert that sexually assaults women. I'm basically asking how is it so obvious when his actions were so restrained? Yeah I know what he said, but his actions didn't seem pervy to me when he was with that woman.

Bush came off more like a pervert to me than Trump did. Bush was the one who suggested that woman hug both him and Trump. Bush was the one who was making comments about her appearance and tried to throw Trump into the mix. Bush was the one who initiated a question in which he asked whether she would choose Trump or him. Even when that woman steps in the middle of them Trump doesn't even attempt to hold his arm out for her the way Bush does. Does this mean Bush is a sexual assaulter? No, but I'd definitely say Bush was trying to get into her pants way more than Trump was.

Bush comes off like the cool douchey guy from highschool that thinks he can get any girl, and Trump comes off like the dork that isn't as cool but tries to make himself look cool by making degrading comments about women, not as a sexual assaulter. I'm saying based on this video, Trumps actions don't appear to show how obvious it is that he's a sexual assaulter, yet everyone keeps talking about how "obvious" it is.

Quote:If you have been to college, your university should have a policy regarding sexual harassment or sexual assault.  Within that policy, there should be a discussion about what does and does not constitute consent.  I've already posted an example for Rotobeast.  I highly, highly suggest you read it.  Because you clearly don't understand.

Don't understand what? Your arguments are founded on the assumption that Donald Trump has had unwanted non-consensual contact with multiple women, but you have no basis from which to push this argument other than what Trump said in the video, and say "well what more proof do I need". Well, a lot actually.

Quote:He and you and others here believe if a woman were to just stand there and not do or say anything afterwards then  that woman "let" Donald grab her ***** because she didn't do anything which in your minds constitutes consent. But, that isn't necessarily true. Many perpetrators of sexual harassment rationalize their behavior.

Wait, wait, wait.... What? I don't believe that. And I don't remember Donald Trump saying he believes that either. If you can point me to a source I'd like to see it. If you have a video of Trump engaging in some non-consensual acts, I'd like to see that too. Sounds to me like you're just interpreting everything Trump has said to mean the worst possible thing so that you can paint him as a sexual assaulter.

[Rotobeast]

(10-11-2016, 06:33 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Bfine, has told me previously he doesn't have to answer any questions if the answer involves a fact one can look up on their own.  But, I'll make an exception for you.

There are countless university and corporate policies that deal with sexual assault and harassment along with various state and federal laws.  Consent is a subtopic under the larger umbrella of sexual assault and sexual harassment.

This policy specifically addresses silence or immobility.  If Donald Trump grabbed a Miss USA pageant contestant's ***** and Donald Trump were to claim she "let" him because he is a celebrity and she didn't object afterwards doesn't mean she consented.  She might not say anything for fear of reprisals.

Everyone here has a mother, sister, wife, daughter, niece, or at least a female friend.  I feel fairly confident most, if not all, would object to a man inappropriately grabbing their *****.  I think it is important as husbands, brothers, fathers, uncles, or at least a friend, we as men understand that if a female we care about doesn't immediately object to inappropriate sexual behavior that doesn't mean they consented to "let" someone grab their *****.

As a father of a son, I want to make damn sure he knows about consent so A) he doesn't get into legal trouble and B) and I know I raised a decent human being whom I can be proud.

I'm just really surprised at some of the stuff I'm reading in here from the god-fearing crowd.  I'm not even calling Trump a rapist.  All I've done is acknowledge that what Trump described in the video is sexual assault and I've tried to help other people understand . . . because I have a daughter and I can't be there 24/7 to protect against her dumbasses who don't have the first clue what consent, sexual harassment, or sexual assault is who are passing on their stupidity to their dumbass sons.  It's ***** ridiculous.

Well, thank you for making that exception.
I have a daughter, as well.
My post was centered upon kissing and no further.
I read the consent section of your link and I understand and agree, as it referred to sexual activity.
Is kissing now regarded as sexual activity ?
I didn't see anything in that section.
Anywho.. I intend on teaching my daughter the physical cues of aggressors and how her actions can affect the situation.
I.E.: boy smiles, closes eyes, leans into kiss.... A: (if you want to kiss ^which your father advises against^) smile, close eyes, wait. Bnot wanting to kiss ^dad approves^) pull head back, lean back and say "sorry, I'm not ready.

So please, don't confuse me as a Trump apologist.
His repeated actions/words speak for themselves.

My main thing had to do with kissing and that flat out verbal consent rarely happens.
It would totally ruin the romance and then you might as well go home.
If the day comes (and I'm sure it will) where you have to have written consent for a date with a checklist of possible activities, there will be a heck of a lot more shut-in, chronic masturbating man-children wasting away in dank basements.
And there will be the beginning oh H.G. Wells' subterranean people, The Morlocks.

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

[Dill]

(10-11-2016, 08:50 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote:  I'm saying based on this video, Trumps actions don't appear to show how obvious it is that he's a sexual assaulter, yet everyone keeps talking about how "obvious" it is.
 Sounds to me like you're just interpreting everything Trump has said to mean the worst possible thing so that you can paint him as a sexual assaulter.

Trump bragged he groped and kissed women. You and others are reconstructing consent based upon absence of other videos and failure to grope a woman as soon as he got off a bus--as if that were "proof" he has not been groping other women as he says. If he doesn't grope one woman on camera that is proof he never does it in less public settings, as he says he does?  

That woman he greeted off the bus, by the way, was not one who worked for him--not someone he had power over.

Not so long ago, police, prosecutors, judges, and jurors often looked similarly on rape and assault cases. The victim was blamed (what was she wearing? why didn't she resist? Why did she wait to report?); the perp was just doing what lots of guys did. That is what is now called "rape culture."

One aspect of the Trump campaign is that, as with racism, it is giving people permission/encouragement to publicly affirm and defend atavistic sexist behaviors many thought we'd left back in the 20th century.

[Matt_Crimson]

(10-11-2016, 09:48 PM)Dill Wrote: Trump bragged he groped and kissed women. You and others are reconstructing consent based upon absence of other videos and failure to grope a woman as soon as he got of a bus--as if that were "proof" he has not been groping other women as he says. If he doesn't grope one woman on camera that is proof he never does it in less public settings, as he says he does? 

You don't know whether he was bragging or embellishing or trying to be funny. This is part of my point. All of you guys accusing Trump of sexual assault don't actually have proof of anything. All you have is conjecture formed from your own personal interpretations of the video. I don't know why you're saying I'm "reconsructing consent". I'm not saying anyone consented to anything, and I'm not saying the video proves anything. In fact, I'm saying the video proves exactly the opposite, which is nothing. Therefore, since the video proves nothing, I cannot conclude he's a sexual assaulter, therefore I cannot accuse him of sexual assault.

You're the one's making the claim, I'm just counter claiming by saying that Trump is not a sexual assaulter just because you guys want to believe he is based upon your own interpretations. Hell, for all I know, Trump DID sexually assault someone, but I have no shred of proof that he has, so I will not make that accusation. Sure you can say "well he said it" by interpreting what he said in whatever way you want to interpret it. Well you know what, people say a lot of things for different reasons and in different ways and we never really know what they meant or why they said it, we can mostly only assume.

I know for a fact that I have said I've done things in the past that I have never actually done and I have embellished and I have lied and I have made bad jokes. We all have. Good thing we're not all rich white guys who got caught in a private conversation saying the things we have all said whether its degrading remarks about women, racist remarks about another race or some other vile and unbelievable thing just so eveyone else can point and laugh at us like they've never done anything wrong in their life.

Quote:One aspect of the Trump campaign is that, as with racism, it is giving people permission/encouragement to publicly affirm and defend atavistic sexist behaviors many thought we'd left back in the 20th century.

"Sexist behaviors we left back in the 20th century". Are you kidding me? It's not like Trump is walking around telling women to get back in the kitchen and campaigning to take away women's rights. Sexist behavior will always exist and will never go away. If you think it will you're delusional.

[Dill]

(10-11-2016, 10:59 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: "Sexist behaviors we left back in the 20th century".  Are you kidding me? It's not like Trump is walking around telling women to get back in the kitchen and campaigning to take away women's rights. Sexist behavior will always exist and will never go away. If you think it will you're delusional.

Sexism won't go away if we say it won't go away and accept in national role models. 

[Dill]

(10-11-2016, 10:59 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: You don't know whether he was bragging or embellishing or trying to be funny. This is part of my point. All of you guys accusing Trump of sexual assault don't actually have proof of anything. All you have is conjecture formed from your own personal interpretations of the video. I don't know why you're saying I'm "reconsructing consent". I'm not saying anyone consented to anything, and I'm not saying the video proves anything. In fact, I'm saying the video proves exactly the opposite, which is nothing. Therefore, since the video proves nothing, I cannot conclude he's a sexual assaulter, therefore I cannot accuse him of sexual assault.

I think the video proves he said that he groped women, which is sexual assault.

And his comments after the video, especially to Anderson Cooper during the last debate, prove that he doesn't think
talking about groping women is talking about sexual assault--just locker room talk. 

The Republican nominee, who if elected would represent the US to the world and be a role model for children, does not see
an important distinction here, and anyway Bill Clinton and ISIS are worse. His supporters don't see a distinction either.

You seem to think the video provides no trustworthy clues as to Trump's actions and character if it doesn't show him
actually assaulting someone. He could just be bragging/lying about sexual assault. Something "we all" have done.

NOT

[Matt_Crimson]

(10-12-2016, 12:25 AM)Dill Wrote: Sexism won't go away if we say it won't go away and accept in national role models. 

No, sexism won't go away because we are imperfect human beings living in an imperfect world. Sexism won't go away in the same way racism won't go away. Sure, we can suppress sexism to the point that it's no longer accepted as government policy, but it is absolutely impossible to monitor every human being on this earth to make sure they are not acting in a sexist manner. People will always do what they want to do behind closed doors because they can. The existence of sexism and other "-isms" have absolutely nothing to do with "role models" and everything to do with the fact that human beings are human beings.

Quote:I think the video proves he said that he groped women, which is sexual assault.

You don't know what Trump has actually done. You can sit here and say what he said, but you don't know what he actually meant by any of it, you can only assume. You want to know something interesting? If a person walks into a police precinct and confesses to a murder, that confession does not convict them. Why? Because there is a burden of proof that goes beyond the confession. As a matter of fact, people do walk into police precincts and confess to crimes they committed and rather than going to jail these people are investigated and later fined for false confessions. They're not called murderers.

Quote:And his comments after the video, especially to Anderson Cooper during the last debate, prove that he doesn't think
talking about groping women is talking about sexual assault--just locker room talk. 

No it doesn't prove that. All it proves it that Trump thinks what he was talking about was just locker room talk. He's not saying that ALL sexual assault conversations are just locker room talk.  Again, you don't actually know the context in which he was saying the things that he said. You just assume he was saying he literally sexually assaults women. His whole "I just start kissing them" line didn't even sound like he was being serious. It sounded like he was trying to make Bush laugh by saying that. That's part of what embellishing is, exaggerating things to get a specific reaction.

Quote:You seem to think the video provides no trustworthy clues as to Trump's actions and character if it doesn't show him actually assaulting someone. He could just be bragging/lying about sexual assault. Something "we all" have done.

I didn't say the video "provides no clues". I said the video proves nothing. Those are entirely different statements. You can interpret the video and pull out whatever "clues" you want, but those so called "clues" do not make Trump a sexual assaulter. And I'm not saying everyone has talked about going around and groping women. But you and everyone else who keep acting like you've never made any disgusting comments in your life are ridiculous.

[Dill]

(10-12-2016, 09:17 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: You don't know what Trump has actually done. You can sit here and say what he said, but you don't know what he actually meant by any of it, you can only assume. You want to know something interesting? If a person walks into a police precinct and confesses to a murder, that confession does not convict them. Why? Because there is a burden of proof that goes beyond the confession. As a matter of fact, people do walk into police precincts and confess to crimes they committed and rather than going to jail these people are investigated and later fined for false confessions. They're not called murderers.

No it doesn't prove that. All it proves it that Trump thinks what he was talking about was just locker room talk. He's not saying that ALL sexual assault conversations are just locker room talk.  Again, you don't actually know the context in which he was saying the things that he said. You just assume he was saying he literally sexually assaults women. His whole "I just start kissing them" line didn't even sound like he was being serious. It sounded like he was trying to make Bush laugh by saying that. That's part of what embellishing is, exaggerating things to get a specific reaction.

I didn't say the video "provides no clues". I said the video proves nothing. Those are entirely different statements. You can interpret the video and pull out whatever "clues" you want, but those so called "clues" do not make Trump a sexual assaulter. And I'm not saying everyone has talked about going around and groping women. But you and everyone else who keep acting like you've never made any disgusting comments in your life are ridiculous.

Let's get some clarity here.

Cooper reminded Trump that bragging about groping women was bragging about sexual assault. Trump said that talking about groping women, as he plainly was, was not talking about sexual assault; just "locker room talk." I said he does not get the distinction, does not recognize what actions are legally definable as sexual assault. (And I further say he does not get it even if he was ONLY trying to make Bush laugh.)

 And you "correct" me by pointing out "All [the video] proves is that Trump thinks what he was talking about is just locker room talk."  I.e., that he does not see a distinction between bragging about sexual assault and "just locker room talk." I.e., Exactly what I said.

You say that I assume "he was saying he literally assaults women." Yes I do, if he says he was groping them, he was literally saying that.

But for you it's all fuzzy. You are not sure what he literally said or meant or whatever. If he literally he says he groped women then I am just "pulling" that out of his statement, like the literal meaning is only an interpretation. Wait, maybe he was reading lines from a movie script. Were they talking about a movie script when he got off the bus?

And you appear to let Trump off the hook because everyone else not running for president has made disgusting comments--admitting that maybe not all have bragged about sexual assault. The big take away for you is that the video alone could not legally convict Trump of sexual assault.

If someone applies for a job as a teacher in a grade school, and then a video surfaces in which he brags of fondling children and how he gets away with it because he is an adult, would you say the video proves exactly nothing, we have no idea what he really meant, and go ahead an hire him?  We are never going to do away with child abuse/sexism.

[*bfine32*]

(10-12-2016, 10:32 AM)Dill Wrote: Let's get some clarity here.


If someone applies for a job as a teacher in a grade school, and then a video surfaces in which he brags of fondling children and how he gets away with it because he is an adult, would you say the video proves exactly nothing, we have no idea what he really meant, and go ahead an hire him?  We are never going to do away with child abuse/sexism.

Just when you thought the lynch mob could not get any more ludicris.