Hamas Attacks Israel: 70 Israelis, 198 Palestinians Dead
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Hamas Attacks Israel: 70 Israelis, 198 Palestinians Dead
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10-11-2023, 12:51 PM
(10-11-2023, 12:48 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: If Israel were vacated and given back to the Palestinians (and did not attempt to reclaim the land in any shape or form), then I do believe Palestinians would stop actively warring with the Israeli people. Of course they would, because there'd be no more "Israeli people" to war against. 
10-11-2023, 12:52 PM
(10-11-2023, 12:34 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Refugees are not "illegal immigrants." You should tell that to the GOP and their supporters. 
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR 
10-11-2023, 12:53 PM
(10-11-2023, 12:50 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: There are only two possible outcomes here. Either the Palestinians give up their claim and live elsewhere, or Israel ceases to exist, with all the attendant consequences of that. Anything else is a pipe dream and the current situation will continue. Blame whoever you want, justify any action you want on either side, but that's what it boils down to. Religion allows for no other possibility, both Judaism and Islam. Agreed. Those are the only two possible outcomes I can see. Quote:In the meantime I will comfortably condemn, unequivocally, the actions of Hamas, regardless of any perceived provocation or justification. I am very comfortable making such a moral stance. I realize others feel differently, including every single representative of the Palestinians I have heard speak on this issue, as well as several Dem members of Congress. In other words, you are choosing "the Palestinians give up their claim and live elsewhere." It's not surprising that the Palestinians disagree.
10-11-2023, 12:55 PM
10-11-2023, 12:56 PM
(10-11-2023, 12:39 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yes. Understanding the nuance is absolutely fine, but it should not be tacked on to condemning these actions. It's not a "I condemn Hamas, BUT..." situation. Framing it in that matter only excuses or mitigates the actions in question. If, for example, you condemned what happened in Charlottesville and then attempted to explain why some people there feel aggrieved you'd be swarmed by people calling you an apologist for white supremacy. There's a time for understanding nuance. That time is not while a beheaded infant's blood is still cooling on the sheets of their crib. (10-11-2023, 12:43 PM)GMDino Wrote: Those refugees will be called illegal immigrants. Or there will be an "immigrant crisis". You know it. You just won't admit it because I said it which is why you just shouldn't respond to me at all. I'd appreciate that as would much of the board. As always, I find it endlessly amusing how much you mirror what you mock. The best part is you absolutely do not see it, and likely never will. Your last sentence wouldn't be out of place in a TommyC post btw, that's how much of a ideologue you have become, or always were.
10-11-2023, 01:01 PM
(10-11-2023, 12:52 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You should tell that to the GOP and their supporters. I get this is tongue in cheek, but language matters. Opposition to taking in refugese is not the same as incorrectly labeling them as illegal immigrants. (10-11-2023, 12:53 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Agreed. Those are the only two possible outcomes I can see. Not surprising at all. In the exact same way that the Israelis would disagree with the opposite view. I'm not choosing anything but condemning the terrorism committed by Hamas and equally condemning anyone who refuses to denounce their actions. That's the only choice I am making, and it's one I am quite comfortable with. (10-11-2023, 12:55 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: The people would persist. The territory known as "Israel" would not. The point being if Israel ceased to exist than every Israeli would flee the region or face gang rape, torture and murder. Hence there would be no Israelis left in the region for the Palestinians to "war against".
10-11-2023, 01:02 PM
(10-11-2023, 01:01 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I get this is tongue in cheek, but language matters. Opposition to taking in refugese is not the same as incorrectly labeling them as illegal immigrants. GOP supporters do tend to call them illegal/undocumented immigrants. It happens all the time.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
10-11-2023, 01:08 PM
(10-11-2023, 12:50 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Interestingly enough the same people sympathizing with the Palestinians would also be condemning the "white people" in your example. Are the Palestinians subject to genocide? That's a rather weighty accusation for which I've seen no proof. Are they being round up and exterminated? I meant to address this earlier, as you asked it earlier in our conversation as well, but I got swept up in the other items. Anyway... By strict definitions, the Palestinians are not subject to a genocide. The definition of genocide is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." That's clearly not happening yet. There is, however, a strong case for qualifying their treatment as "ethnic cleansing." The definition of ethnic cleansing, according to the UN, is, "a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas." Quote:The Commission of Experts also stated that the coercive practices used to remove the civilian population can include: murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extrajudicial executions, rape and sexual assaults, severe physical injury to civilians, confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas, forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian population, deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, use of civilians as human shields, destruction of property, robbery of personal property, attacks on hospitals, medical personnel, and locations with the Red Cross/Red Crescent emblem, among others. Ethnic cleansing and genocide often go hand in hand, but are technically different.
10-11-2023, 01:35 PM
(10-11-2023, 01:02 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: GOP supporters do tend to call them illegal/undocumented immigrants. It happens all the time. Ignoring the broad brush aspect of this statement, I would reply that I would give them the same response if the claim was made in my presence. (10-11-2023, 01:08 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I meant to address this earlier, as you asked it earlier in our conversation as well, but I got swept up in the other items. Anyway... Then why use the word? You agree it is inaccurate and I think you'd agree that such an accusation is an extremely weighty one to make. Hence I would think we'd be in agreement that its use is hyperbolic, and intentionally so. I would argue that it is used, not by you btw, to help justify the abhorrent reactions of Hamas. As an intelligent and honest person I would ask you to consider not using it for this reason and to encourage others to do the same. Quote:There is, however, a strong case for qualifying their treatment as "ethnic cleansing." The definition of ethnic cleansing, according to the UN, is, "a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas." Using that definition, yes such a claim could be made. But I would add that they are not "technically" different, they are completely different. One may follow the other, just as death is often proceeded by cancer. But that does not make them companions in the sense that one must allows follow the other. The incorrect use of such a heavily charged accusation raises red flags all over the place for me.
10-11-2023, 01:46 PM
(10-11-2023, 01:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Ignoring the broad brush aspect of this statement, I would reply that I would give them the same response if the claim was made in my presence. Ethnic cleansing and genocide are similar in they are often used towards the same goals, but you're right that I used it inaccurately in my initial use. I was under the assumption that genocide was a blanket term referring to removal of a population of people based on ethnic or religious grounds, which would put ethnic cleansing and extermination as two categories of genocide. But upon further examination, I found that they were distinct. I'm sorry for the confusion. It was not my intention to muddy the waters. 
10-11-2023, 01:52 PM
(10-11-2023, 12:31 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 14 US Citizens killed, confirmed US Citizens among the hostages taken, at least 20 Americans in Israel still unaccounted for. And Riley Gaines makes an appearance on campus to mention dongs shouldn’t be flopping around in women’s locker rooms and they all pop their pacifiers out to call that a threat. Everything’s backward lol 
10-11-2023, 04:57 PM
(10-10-2023, 10:41 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Mowing down innocent people at a concert in the desert is terrorism regardless how you look at it. Shooting innocent kids trying to leave the concert and remove themselves from the situation is also terrorism. They were fleeing and not fighting. There is no justification. And no one is justifying it. Not even people who wonder why the silence when Israelis kill civilians. ![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png)
10-11-2023, 05:07 PM
(10-11-2023, 04:57 PM)Dill Wrote: And no one is justifying it. You went all the way back to quote post# 156 to give you another opportunity to remind us how bad Israel is? I think you've already mentioned that a few times in this thread.
10-11-2023, 05:50 PM
(10-11-2023, 01:46 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Ethnic cleansing and genocide are similar in they are often used towards the same goals, but you're right that I used it inaccurately in my initial use. I was under the assumption that genocide was a blanket term referring to removal of a population of people based on ethnic or religious grounds, which would put ethnic cleansing and extermination as two categories of genocide. But upon further examination, I found that they were distinct. I'm sorry for the confusion. It was not my intention to muddy the waters. I have zero doubt that you did not do so intentionally. But there are a very significant number who are deliberately doing exactly that for the reasons I already stated. Plenty of bad actors using that exact word for that exact reason. But, again, I never would have counted you among them. (10-11-2023, 04:57 PM)Dill Wrote: And no one is justifying it. Pure bullshit. Plenty of people are justifying it. “We, the undersigned student organizations, hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence,” https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/11/business/harvard-israel-hamas-ceos-students/index.html And that's just one quick example. I could find hundreds, if not thousands more. Quote:Not even people who wonder why the silence when Israelis kill civilians. Keep banging that drum, no one in this thread is dancing to that beat. You're so bigoted on this subject you can't even obfuscate well in it, as the above statement perfectly illustrates. (10-11-2023, 05:07 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: You went all the way back to quote post# 156 to give you another opportunity to remind us how bad Israel is? I think you've already mentioned that a few times in this thread. But he's not biased against Israel at all. Since the thread isn't going the way he hoped he's all but retreated from it. Sadly, for him, there's too much agreement among people having a serious discussion here.
10-11-2023, 06:20 PM
(10-11-2023, 05:50 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Pure bullshit. Plenty of people are justifying it. No. That is not justifying/supporting Hamas. Lot's of Israelis and American Jews agree that Netanyahu and his cabinet bear (to borrow your phrase) "the lion's share" of blame for this debacle. E.g., Former prime minister Ehud Barak and journalist Thomas Friedman. Are they Hamas supporters too? No, they are not. Neither am I or anyone else on this thread, or the politicians you reference. No, this is just a limitation in your ideological framing, which cannot process more than one "cause" when faced with complex social and political phenomena. No different from when you call me an ISIS supporter for not calling them "savages" (because calling other people "savages" is what perpetuates savagery). Your lack of even the most basic knowledge of the history of the conflict or the current configuration of forces operating in the region, or even interest in gaining it, just fuels these oversimplifications.
10-11-2023, 06:32 PM
(10-11-2023, 05:07 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: You went all the way back to quote post# 156 to give you another opportunity to remind us how bad Israel is? I think you've already mentioned that a few times in this thread. I've been offline for over a day, so I just picked up where I left off. And you seemed to have missed my point, which is that attempts to understand why this attack occurred and widen analysis to Israeli policy and previous history do not "justify" what Hamas did. Recognizing a role here for bad policy, understanding what was bad about it, is really the only chance of achieving some kind of lasting peace in this conflict. This cannot be done if people cannot set aside "bad" and "good" for a moment and figure out what led to this. E.g., attributing it to "Religious hatred" is a tremendous oversimplification, because it is an effect, not a cause. The claim anyone doing that is "justifying Hamas" is either lacking in requisite analytic skills and context, or working to prevent recognition of bad policy. 
10-11-2023, 06:36 PM
(10-11-2023, 06:20 PM)Dill Wrote: Your lack of even the most basic knowledge of the history of the conflict or the current configuration of forces operating in the region, or even interest in gaining it, just fuels these oversimplifications. Haven't Jews been slaughtered by ME Muslims for centuries? Doesn't it trace back to even before the Ottoman Empire? Do you think Palestinians are going to suddenly stop hating Jews and stop murdering them in cold blood if they were awarded independence or even all of Israel? There's literally centuries of data that says no, they won't. I know you aren't talking to me and I also lack a lot of knowledge on the conflict but you seem to be lacking some basic knowledge yourself. 
10-11-2023, 06:49 PM
(10-11-2023, 12:31 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 14 US Citizens killed, confirmed US Citizens among the hostages taken, at least 20 Americans in Israel still unaccounted for. Yeah I seen some stuff where some are having zero shame in support of Hamas because of their anti-Israel hate. On a side note, I hope all the gay men of Palestine are taking Asylum in the LGBQT friendly nation of Israel, or are trying to get out while this is all happening. Because Hamas, and Palestine for that matter, aren't so friendly towards them. On another side note, if Palestinians were white, Christian, while being quite more anti-gay than the far right over here, would some of those who seem to support Hamas even care? “Don't give up. Don't ever give up.” - Jimmy V
10-11-2023, 07:12 PM
(10-10-2023, 06:53 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Actually, the Jewish people stole the land from the indigenous inhabitants during the events of Exodus. According to their own history they seized the land through bloodshed. Yes. the PHILISTINES--of Filistina in Arabic--"Palestine" in English--Palestinians. But the argument from ancient rights is entirely a red herring. 1. Remember that those making that argument say that Israel was a donation from God, part of a covenant between Him and one people. For them, it doesn't matter if Jews originally seized the land; the God that gave it to them was no respecter of universal human rights. Such an argument can have no legal standing in current international law. Double standard to the rest of us. (Imagine Muslims, Hindus, Bhuddists and atheists all agreeing--sure universal human rights, but GOD gave the land to the Jews so, yeah, trumps international law.) 2. Many Palestinians are Christian (some 50, 000 in the Bethlehem area) but the Palestinian Muslims also have a religious claim to the area, given Jerusalem contains their 3rd holiest site, the Al Aqsa mosque whose grounds Netanyahu proposed to split earlier this year https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/netanyahu-ally-proposes-splitting-al-aqsa-what-does-it-mean-for-muslims-13538357. They see their own religion as the final word on the earlier covenants which began with Adam, Abraham, and Moses. Theirs supercedes the now void Mosaic covenant. 3. The diaspoara (the important one for our purposes here) supposedly begins in 70 CE when the Romans destroyed the then Israeli state and spread many, mostly the upper classes, around the empire. The Jews who founded the new state in '48 were then supposedly"returning" to a land which had been emptied of Jews. But most of the Jewish population, farmers and peasants and such, stayed in place after 70CE. When Islam spread to the Levant, all but a few converted. Today's Palestinians--essentially Jews who didn't leave--and Jews of the "return," share a common ancestry. https://news.arizona.edu/story/study-finds-jews-are-genetic-brothers-of-palestinians-syrians-and-lebanese https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/ Wait!--maybe I spoke too soon. The ancient claim can have no standing or purchase in current international law, but it does have purchase among US Evangelicals. When "the branch returned to the tree" in '48, many believe that the endtime clock started ticking. They are not interested in international law or or any future world beyond Jesus imminent return. So it does have an effect on US politics.
10-11-2023, 08:11 PM
(10-11-2023, 06:36 PM)basballguy Wrote: Haven't Jews been slaughtered by ME Muslims for centuries? Doesn't it trace back to even before the Ottoman Empire? Do you think Palestinians are going to suddenly stop hating Jews and stop murdering them in cold blood if they were awarded independence or even all of Israel? There's literally centuries of data that says no, they won't. Don't know why you think I'm not talking to you. I've answered several of your posts in some detail. But about your "centuries of data that says no" . . . . Say what??? Until 1938, there is not much difference between Muslims and Christians when it comes to persecuting Jews. Though I think one could make a case there were places where Muslims made more effort to integrate Jews in their community. The first Crusade (1096) began with an attack on Jews in Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_massacres All Jews were expelled from England in the 13th century by Edward I (That mean king in the movie Braveheart). Jews were ghettoized on the Continent, and there were repeated massacres and Pogroms. Then most of the Jewish population of Spain was expelled in the 16th century under the Inquisition. But maybe you've heard of a more recent event called the Holocaust? Really nothing like that on the Muslim side. Jews living under Muslims have also suffered, sometimes thriving, but in some places subject to recurrent masscare as in Europe. 5,000 were killed in Granada in 1066. In Morocco there were periodic massacres of Jews. Some in other places, but less regularly, it seems to me. Here is a Jewish source for information about life under Islam. https://jewishaction.com/opinion/legal-ease-whats-the-truth-about-muslim-anti-semitism/ Their status varied across time and across many countries, but as Dhimmis, along with Christians, they were considered people of the book. They paid a tax, were allowed to worship, often forbidden from holding military or state office. Aside from that second class citizenship, they often thrived as well or better than under Christians. As with Christians, massacres were tied to local politics and class wars. "Hate" is never a cause of persecution. It is an effect of other forces. And earlier Jewish communities were given to massacring "idolators" as well, where they had the civic power. The key to understanding this behavior in all three religions, I'd say, lies the embrace of all three of the 1st commandment--"You shall have no other gods before you." The key to understanding why it doesn't happen in some times and places is the effect of cosmopolitanism--of living together in relative political equality and economic interdependence. (I once gave SSF some instruction on that topic (on the Merkel thread), in answer to his question--"why aren't Jews killing people now?") So I'd say there aren't "centuries of data" suggesting Muslims will never stop persecuting Jews any more than there are centuries of data suggesting Christians will not stop persecuting them. The roots of Muslim persecution of Jews are the same as those of Christian persecution of Jews--perceived economic and political threat expressed in religious terms, often deliberately whipped up in religious terms. The solution is the same as it has always been--cosmopolitanism, civil and political order separated from religion and based on human rights. The argument that "hatred" proceeds from religious grounds simply separates the current conflict from its actual, material causes. There is no reasoning with or redeeming a group like Hamas. They must be destroyed. But if another Hamas arises out of the desolate prison of Gaza, it will not be because Muslims just hate Jews. It will be because millions of Muslims remain condemned to an open air prison for yet another generation. Something that does not have to be. It will not be because millions of other Palestinians, among the most secular of all Arab Muslims, cannot be reasoned with. |
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