Harrison Butker | Commencement Address 2024

[GMDino]

I was thinking about the hubbub with Butker yesterday when I also heard a story on the news that kind of pulled it together for me.

I'm in my 50's.  In my lifetime women could not get a credit card without a man signing for it (Husband, brother, father). In fact this year (2024) is the 50th anniversary of that changing.

Around that same time birth control for women became legal and accessible in all 50 states.

No fault divorces, created in 1969 by California Governor Reagan, wasn't legal in all 50 states until 2010.

And of course abortion which has now been kicked back to the states...where it has been supported on every ballot so far.

But there is a strong movement in this country...in 2024...to remove some of those legal rights.

Some states are looking to get rid of no fault divorces.

The SC is looking at birth control.

Women are seeing a segment of society, and elected officials, look to take more control over their private lives.  Usually in the interest of "family values".

So one can understand how people could be upset that a person given a platform like Butker gave a speech suggesting that what would REALLY make the female graduates happy is to get married, have children and let men decide what is best for them and everyone else.

Again, and as I stated in my first post, I understand where he was speaking and to whom.  All of those students probably had to take a set number of religious credits just like I did.  And the school probably offered a class in marriage like mine did.

The Catholic Church (in general, but a majority of its leaders and followers) still wants it to be pre-all those fancy rights given to women.  Catholic women who attend a Catholic college know that.  They would not be offended (in general) even if some do not wish to follow the "traditional" path of marriage and children.

But for anyone to say that people should have just ignored it is in fact ignoring themselves that culturally we have changed as a nation over the last half century and in the current political climate those who want to keep those changes will react to such a speech because they see it as yet more proof that there is a move to push women back 50 years.

Just a few thoughts that I could probably flesh out better if I took the time.

[Dill]

(05-25-2024, 04:32 AM)hollodero Wrote: Well he's not around for years now. I too have a hard time believing that you cannot remember him being a bit of an ass, it might have been part of his whole sarcatic internet persona, but yeah. He was kinda smug, he called people names and employed quite insulting undertones, that's how I remember and that would be my witness testimony, that and that I usually agreed with him on the issues and hence wasn't bothered as much. I don't have receipts for it's way too unimportant for me to dig up year-old threads I can not quite remember any more. I also don't think it makes much sense to call you out over allegedly siding with him after so much time has passed.

I remember some obtuseness about the difference between saying "blacks" as in "Blacks vote Dem," and "The Blacks," as in "The Blacks vote dem."
And he couldn't figure out how "race" could be a social construction rather than a natural fact. 
But I don't remember him personally attacking anyone unless attacked first. Good as my forum memory apparently is, 
that doesn't mean he didn't do it. I don't click on every thread. 

I only dive into the subject when his name is dredged up to revise forum history, not to defend his legacy. 

(05-25-2024, 04:32 AM)hollodero Wrote: Maybe that could be a theoretical point of universal agreement.

There might be conditions under which I would, like Killer, be ok with firing a private individual for speech I don't like.
But offhand I can't think of any.  

Free speech absolutism inevitably involves people in double standards--sooner rather than later. 

[GMDino]

Kicker is asked to speak out on a subject.

Asks the team PR people if it's ok.

Team says sure as long as you do it as a private citizen.

Kicker is berated and loses job at end of season.  

10 years ago.

https://deadspin.com/i-was-an-nfl-player-until-i-was-fired-by-two-cowards-an-1493208214/

Quote:[color=rgb(28 58 77/var(--tw-text-opacity))]I Was An NFL Player Until I Was Fired By Two Cowards And A Bigot[/color]


CHRIS KLUWE|Published: Thu Jan 02 2014 17:52



Hello. My name is Chris Kluwe, and for eight years I was the punter for the Minnesota Vikings. In May 2013, the Vikings released me from the team. At the time, quite a few people asked me if I thought it was because of my recent activism for same-sex marriage rights, and I was very careful in how I answered the question. My answer, verbatim, was always, "I honestly don't know, because I'm not in those meetings with the coaches and administrative people."

This is a true answer. I honestly don't know if my activism was the reason I got fired.

However, I'm pretty confident it was.

Allow myself to tell you a story about ... myself. The following is a record of what happened to me during my 2012 season with the Minnesota Vikings, written down immediately after the 2013 draft in April, when I realized what was happening, and revised recently only for clarity. I tried to keep things as objective as possible, and anything you see in quotes are words that I directly recall being said to me.

This is a story about how actions have consequences, no matter how just or moral you think your cause happens to be, and it's a story about the price people all too often pay for speaking out.

Today, April 30, 2013, I am writing an account of events that transpired during my time with the Minnesota Vikings during the 2012 NFL season and leading into the 2013 season (so I don't forget them in case it is necessary to recall what happened).

During the summer of 2012, I was approached by a group called Minnesotans for Marriage Equality, which asked if I would be interested in helping defeat what was known as the Minnesota Gay Marriage Amendment. The proposed amendment would have defined marriage as "only a union of one man and one woman." (It was voted down, and same-sex marriage is now legal in Minnesota.) I said yes, but that I would have to clear it with the team first. After talking to the Vikings legal department, I was given the go-ahead to speak on the issue as long as I made it clear I was acting as a private citizen, not as a spokesman for the Vikings, which I felt was fair and complied with. I did several radio advertisements and a dinner appearance for Minnesotans for Marriage Equality. No one from the Vikings' legal department told me I was doing anything wrong or that I had to stop.

On Sept. 7, 2012, this website published a letter I had written to Maryland delegate Emmett C. Burns Jr. chastising him for trampling the free-speech rights of Baltimore Ravens linebacker Brendon Ayanbadejo. The letter also detailed why I supported the rights of same-sex couples to get married. It quickly went viral.

On Sept. 8, the head coach of the Vikings, Leslie Frazier, called me into his office after our morning special-teams meeting. I anticipated it would be about the letter (punters aren't generally called into the principal's office). Once inside, Coach Frazier immediately told me that I "needed to be quiet, and stop speaking out on this stuff" (referring to my support for same-sex marriage rights). I told Coach Frazier that I felt it was the right thing to do (what with supporting equality and all), and I also told him that one of his main coaching points to us was to be "good men" and to "do the right thing." He reiterated his fervent desire for me to cease speaking on the subject, stating that "a wise coach once told me there are two things you don't talk about in the NFL, politics and religion." I repeated my stance that this was the right thing to do, that equality is not something to be denied anyone, and that I would not promise to cease speaking out. At that point, Coach Frazier told me in a flat voice, "If that's what you feel you have to do," and the meeting ended. The atmosphere was tense as I left the room.

On Sept. 9, before our game against the Jacksonville Jaguars, the owner of the team, Zygi Wilf, came up to me, shook my hand, and told me: "Chris, I'm proud of what you've done. Please feel free to keep speaking out. I just came from my son's best friend's wedding to his partner in New York, and it was one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen."

On Sept. 10, I was once again called into Leslie Frazier's office. Coach Frazier asked me if I was going to keep speaking out on the matter of same-sex marriage and equality. I responded that I was, and I related what Zygi Wilf had said to me at the game the day before. Coach Frazier looked stunned and put his hand across his face. He then told me: "Well, he writes the checks. It looks like I've been overruled." At that point, he got his personal public relations assistant on a conference call to ask her what to do. She outlined some strategies, mainly centered around talking only with large national media groups and ignoring the smaller market stations (radio, television, print). I said that I would be sure not to say anything to denigrate the team, but that I would like to talk with anyone who was interested. Both Coach Frazier and his PR person attempted to dissuade me from this course of action, saying that the message would be more effective if presented properly. I suspected this was another attempt to keep me from speaking out. I did not agree to any course of action they suggested, and I left the meeting once it concluded.

On or around Sept. 17 (could have possibly been Sept. 19), I approached our head of public relations, Bob Hagan. It had come to my attention via Twitter that multiple news sources were attempting to contact me through the Vikings and had been unable to reach me (I learned this via those same agencies asking me on Twitter if I was available for interviews, to which I responded affirmatively). I told Bob Hagan that from this point on, any media requests he received were to be forwarded immediately to me. I would take care of them. He told me that he was trying to protect me from being overwhelmed. I repeated my request that he forward all media requests to me, as I could handle them. He assented, and later that day I found three media requests in my locker (to which I had already responded via Twitter), two of which were dated from four to six days earlier.

Throughout the months of September, October, and November, Minnesota Vikings special-teams coordinator Mike Priefer would use homophobic language in my presence. He had not done so during minicamps or fall camp that year, nor had he done so during the 2011 season. He would ask me if I had written any letters defending "the gays" recently and denounce as disgusting the idea that two men would kiss, and he would constantly belittle or demean any idea of acceptance or tolerance. I tried to laugh these off while also responding with the notion that perhaps they were human beings who deserved to be treated as human beings. Mike Priefer also said on multiple occasions that I would wind up burning in hell with the gays, and that the only truth was Jesus Christ and the Bible. He said all this in a semi-joking tone, and I responded in kind, as I felt a yelling match with my coach over human rights would greatly diminish my chances of remaining employed. I felt uncomfortable each time Mike Priefer said these things. After all, he was directly responsible for reviewing my job performance, but I hoped that after the vote concluded in Minnesota his behavior would taper off and eventually stop.

On Oct. 25, I had a poor game against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, and the Vikings brought in several punters for a workout to potentially replace me. I do not believe this was motivated by my speaking out on same-sex equality, though I do not know for sure. During the special-teams meeting the following day, Mike Priefer berated me in an incredibly harsh tone the likes of which I've never heard a coach use about my abilities as a punter (and I have been berated before). The room went silent after he finished speaking, in a way that normally does not happen during meetings when someone is being called out. The Vikings kept me on as their punter.



Near the end of November, several teammates and I were walking into a specialist meeting with Coach Priefer. We were laughing over one of the recent articles I had written supporting same-sex marriage rights, and one of my teammates made a joking remark about me leading the Pride parade. As we sat down in our chairs, Mike Priefer, in one of the meanest voices I can ever recall hearing, said: "We should round up all the gays, send them to an island, and then nuke it until it glows." The room grew intensely quiet, and none of the players said a word for the rest of the meeting. The atmosphere was decidedly tense. I had never had an interaction that hostile with any of my teammates on this issue—some didn't agree with me, but our conversations were always civil and respectful. Afterward, several told me that what Mike Priefer had said was "messed up."

After this point, Mike Priefer began saying less and less to me, and our interactions were stilted. I grew increasingly concerned that my job would be in jeopardy. I had seen the same pattern of behavior directed at our former placekicker, Ryan Longwell, whom Mike Priefer began to ignore during the 2011 season and who was cut after rookie minicamps in early May 2012.

On Dec. 9, I wore on my jersey a small patch made out of athletic tape on which I'd written, "Vote Ray Guy"— a small protest against punter Ray Guy's exclusion from the Pro Football Hall of Fame. At no point in the game did Coach Priefer instruct me to take off the patch, nor did he appear even to notice it. The only person who talked to me about it was Les Pico, our executive director of player development, who told me that the league office would fine me if I didn't take it off. I told him it was worth it, and we both laughed.

On Dec. 13, during his weekly media session, Mike Priefer was asked about the patch in a joking manner. He responded tersely: "I don't even want to talk about it. Those distractions are getting old for me, to be honest with you." When asked if he had talked to me about the distractions, he said: "No. He won't listen." At no time during the season had Coach Priefer ever approached me about my actions, nor had he ever made any intimation that I was a distraction to the team. He also said: "To me, it's getting old. He's got to focus on punting and holding." Up to that point I had not dropped a single hold on field goals, and despite a shaky game against Tampa Bay and several substandard punts against other teams, both my net- and gross-punting marks were nearly in line with my career averages, which remain the best in Vikings history. I had also been repeatedly instructed by Mike Priefer to dial back the distance of my kicks to give our coverage team a better chance at getting down the field, a request I did my best to follow despite knowing it would mean sacrificing my own averages and allowing people to fashion an argument against me based on those numbers. His exact words were: "Chris, we need you to kick it higher and shorter, because our coverage team sucks. We need to force fair catches as much as possible." I complied, as I had always been taught to put the team before myself.

In November and December, I was frequently marked for negative scores by Mike Priefer on our "Production Point" sheet for punts that earlier had been marked positive, despite the numbers being almost exactly the same in terms of hangtime and distance. I do not know if these "Production Point" sheets were ever shown to our general manager or head coach, nor do I know if they were used to evaluate my job performance, though I suspect they were. I often laughed with other players about how the points seemed to be arbitrarily assigned, and we all agreed that there was no way to succeed as far as the "Production Point" charts were concerned. The vast majority of special-teams players already had negative point totals for the year.


After the season concluded in early January 2013, I had my end-of-year meeting with Coach Priefer. It was brief, and he told me that the team would probably be exploring options for competition. Several days later, the team signed T.J. Conley to a futures contract, which I saw as legitimate competition or a backup plan in case my knee surgery did not go well. I had been playing the past five years on a torn meniscus in my left knee, and the discomfort had gotten to the point where surgery was a necessity. Recovery time was anticipated to be two to four weeks, and my surgery was scheduled for Jan. 31. The surgery went smoothly, as did rehab, and I began kicking again in late February. At no point did Mike Priefer, Leslie Frazier, or Vikings general manager Rick Spielman contact me, nor did they ever ask how the surgery had gone, nor did they ever ask how my return to kicking was progressing.

On Feb. 11, I received a message saying, "Please fly under radar please," from a phone number I would later learn belonged to Rick Spielman. The text message presumably concerned several things I had tweeted that day regarding Pope Benedict XVI's decision to step down. Spielman later called me and asked me to stop tweeting about the pope because angry people were ringing up team headquarters in Winter Park, Minn. It should be noted that my tweets concerned the lack of transparency and endemic institutional corruption of the Catholic Church, which among other things allowed child abuse to flourish. I also pointed out how that applied equally to financial and government institutions, and reiterated that I had nothing against anyone's religion, only against the abuses of power that institutions allow. Nonetheless, I complied with Spielman's request and did not tweet anything else about the pope that day, or in the future.

In March and early April, I spent three to four days a week kicking at the local sports complex near my house in Huntington Beach, Calif., where I lived with my family during the offseason. I felt that I had returned to my in-season form and was quite pleased with my progress. I was confident that in a fair competition with T.J. Conley I would prevail.

On April 21, I arrived back in Minnesota for the start of Organized Team Activities (OTAs), which commenced the following day. When I arrived at the facility, I went through my normal workouts and then went upstairs to talk to Mike Priefer. He hadn't contacted me since our year-end meeting in early January. We had a brief talk, and he mentioned that I would only have to attend the punt-special-team meetings. In previous years, I had attended all the special-teams meetings, as was expected of me. At no point was the draft mentioned.

On April 27, I spent an hour at the Metrodome signing autographs for the Vikings draft party, an event for which the team requested my attendance, and then left to record some music with my band. My phone rang, and a local reporter from the Star Tribune asked me, "Chris, what are your thoughts on the Vikings taking a punter in the fifth round of the draft?" At this point I knew for certain the Vikings were replacing me. I hadn't been informed that drafting a punter was a possibility, and historically punters do not get drafted unless the team figures he'll be a starter. Multiple pundits questioned the Vikings' decision to draft a punter in the fifth round, as there were still several positions of need, and several players at those positions still available to be drafted. No one from the team called me on April 27 or 28.

On April 29, my first day back in the facility after the draft, I met with Rick Spielman after Mike Priefer had told me Rick wanted to see me. Rick told me that this was solely about competition and had nothing to do with my views. I do not believe he was telling the truth. I had not been approached about reducing my contract for cap-space purposes, nor was my punting average poor enough to justify spending a fifth-round pick on a punter for competition. (My gross average in 2012 was almost exactly my career average, and I had a career-best net average. Statistically speaking, I am also the best punter in Vikings history, despite seven years of coaches asking me to deliberately sacrifice my own numbers to help the team, a request with which I always complied.) Rick said he would speak with me again after the rookie minicamp from May 3-5. I then spoke with Coach Priefer. He reiterated that this was about competition, which I suspect was also a lie, and then he started talking about me in the past tense, about how professional I had been, and how it had been a pleasure working with me. The meeting concluded several minutes later. I also learned that T.J. Conley had been cut that day.

At no point from the end of the season, on Jan. 9, 2013, to my arrival at OTAs, on April 21, was I contacted by Leslie Frazier or by any of the other coaches. Rick Spielman called me once, as stated earlier, to insist I stop tweeting about the pope.

On May 6, I had a meeting with Rick Spielman. He told me that the team was releasing me, and he thanked me for the great work I had done for the Vikings, and also said he would tell other teams how professionally and competently I had executed my duties over the years. I then had a meeting with Leslie Frazier, who repeated that I had been "a fantastic player for this organization" and who also told me, "Don't close any doors behind you—you never know when things will come full circle." He thanked me for my services as well, and said I was a great football player. Then I was escorted from the premises and was no longer a Viking.

So there you have it. It's my belief, based on everything that happened over the course of 2012, that I was fired by Mike Priefer, a bigot who didn't agree with the cause I was working for, and two cowards, Leslie Frazier and Rick Spielman, both of whom knew I was a good punter and would remain a good punter for the foreseeable future, as my numbers over my eight-year career had shown, but who lacked the fortitude to disagree with Mike Priefer on a touchy subject matter. (Frazier was fired on Monday, at the conclusion of a 5-10-1 season.) One of the main coaching points I've heard throughout my entire life is, "How you respond to difficult situations defines your character," and I think it's a good saying. I also think it applies to more than just the players.

If there's one thing I hope to achieve from sharing this story, it's to make sure that Mike Priefer never holds a coaching position again in the NFL, and ideally never coaches at any level. (According to the Pioneer Press, he is "the only in-house candidate with a chance" at the head-coaching job.) It's inexcusable that someone would use his status as a teacher and a role model to proselytize on behalf of his own doctrine of intolerance, and I hope he never gets another opportunity to pass his example along to anyone else. I also hope that Leslie Frazier and Rick Spielman take a good look in the mirror and ask themselves if they are the people they truly profess themselves to be.

Some will ask why I waited so long to tell this story. It's a fair question, and I have two answers. The first is that I still have friends on the Vikings, and opening up something like this during the season would not help them focus on their jobs. By doing it now, I hope they don't have to answer questions about an issue that concerns only four people, and I hope the issue will have died down before next season starts.

The second is that I wanted to prove I still had the physical ability to compete in the NFL. I can still hit the ball 45 yards outside the numbers with good hangtime, and at the tryouts I've had this year I've gotten praise from the scouts and personnel people on hand, but for whatever reason I cannot find a job. (Side note: My numbers from last year would put me right in the middle of the pack for this year, and I've traditionally been in the middle to top third of punters each year).

However, it's clear to me that no matter how much I want to prove I can play, I will no longer punt in the NFL, especially now that I've written this account. Whether it's my age, my minimum veteran salary, my habit of speaking my mind, or (most likely) a combination of all three, my time as a football player is done. Punters are always replaceable, at least in the minds of those in charge, and I realize that in advocating noisily for social change I only made it easier for them to justify not having me around. So it goes.

Some will ask if the NFL has a problem with institutionalized homophobia. I don't think it does. I think there are homophobic people in the NFL, in all positions, but that's true for society as well, and those people eventually get replaced. All we can do is try to expose their behavior when we see it and call them to account for their actions.

Thank you for taking the time to read my story. Never be afraid to do what's right. If no one ever says anything, nothing ever changes.

—Chris Kluwe, former NFL player

tl;dr—It's been a fun eight years; sometimes people do crappy things to each other.

Update, 6:37 p.m.: Vikings say they'll investigate | Mike Priefer responds

See also: "They Won't Magically Turn You Into A Lustful Cockmonster": Chris Kluwe Explains Gay Marriage To A Politician

Chris Kluwe spent eight years as the Vikings punter. He is the author of Beautifully Unique Sparkleponies: On Myths, Morons, Free Speech, Football, and Assorted Absurdities. His last piece for Deadspin was about why Deadspin sucks. Follow him on Twitter, @ChrisWarcraft.


Top photos via Getty. Photo of Priefer with Vikings players via AP.

I don't know if there were any campaigns to get him fired or not.

I just thought it was interesting that he did all of this outside of his job also but never played in the NFL again.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-26-2024, 08:11 PM)GMDino Wrote: Kicker is asked to speak out on a subject.

Asks the team PR people if it's ok.

Team says sure as long as you do it as a private citizen.

Kicker is berated and loses job at end of season.  

10 years ago.

https://deadspin.com/i-was-an-nfl-player-until-i-was-fired-by-two-cowards-an-1493208214/




I don't know if there were any campaigns to get him fired or not.

I just thought it was interesting that he did all of this outside of his job also but never played in the NFL again.

If true that's incredibly effed up.  An interesting facet of this is that many, if not all, of the people calling for Butker to be fired would be lined up in support of this gentleman.  The sad thing is that everyone should be in support of the rights of both.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-28-2024, 01:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If true that's incredibly effed up.  An interesting facet of this is that many, if not all, of the people calling for Butker to be fired would be lined up in support of this gentleman.  The sad thing is that everyone should be in support of the rights of both.

But, but he's encouraging women to be trad wives, as well as applauding career minded women. He can't support both, he's gotta be lying to one of those groups...

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-28-2024, 01:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: But, but he's encouraging women to be trad wives, as well as applauding career minded women. He can't support both, he's gotta be lying to one of those groups...

This thread has done an excellent job of illustrating that our tolerance for people expressing their point of view is, for many people, almost entirely dependent on if we agree with them.  This is why I genuinely fear for the future of free speech.

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(05-26-2024, 08:11 PM)GMDino Wrote: Kicker is asked to speak out on a subject.

Asks the team PR people if it's ok.

Team says sure as long as you do it as a private citizen.

Kicker is berated and loses job at end of season.  

10 years ago.

https://deadspin.com/i-was-an-nfl-player-until-i-was-fired-by-two-cowards-an-1493208214/




I don't know if there were any campaigns to get him fired or not.

I just thought it was interesting that he did all of this outside of his job also but never played in the NFL again.

Whataboutism strong in this one is.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-28-2024, 03:53 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: Whataboutism strong in this one is.

I'm going to have to defend Dino here.  I don't see his post as whataboutism, rather an example of a player in similar circumstances who (likely) lost their job because of it.  I would hope we could all agree that him losing his job for stating his opinion on his private time was/is wrong.  It's not like he came out in favor of racism or something equally abhorrent.

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(05-28-2024, 03:57 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm going to have to defend Dino here.  I don't see his post as whataboutism, rather an example of a player in similar circumstances who (likely) lost their job because of it.  I would hope we could all agree that him losing his job for stating his opinion on his private time was/is wrong.  It's not like he came out in favor of racism or something equally abhorrent.

I agree the punter got the short end of the stick.

I am just pointing out the trend.

I do not think anyone on the board is arguing him being cut is justified, based solely on the information provided.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-28-2024, 04:07 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: I agree the punter got the short end of the stick.

I am just pointing out the trend.

Pointing it out when it doesn't apply makes it far less impactful when it does.  We see it here all the time, from numerous posters on numerous issues.

Quote:I do not think anyone on the board is arguing him being cut is justified, based solely on the information provided.

A rare, and welcome consensus.

[samhain]

(05-28-2024, 01:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: But, but he's encouraging women to be trad wives, as well as applauding career minded women. He can't support both, he's gotta be lying to one of those groups...

Regardless of the what the kicker in KC says, the trad wife talking point gets incredibly old.  

I'd imagine most families would really appreciate the privilege of allowing a parent, a wife perhaps, perhaps not, to stay home and raise children full time.  It would save at shitload in childcare and simultaneously make time for more family activity when everyone is home together.  

Unfortunately, it's just not economically feasible for the majority of people.  One breadwinner providing for a spouse and multiple children is probably getting into 200K per year territory.  I know people who make that much, but not many.  If a lifestyle is going to be viable enough to solve an issue perceived as cumulative, then the lifestyle by definition needs to be feasible for more than just the upper class.  To boot, many of my more financially well-off friends are that way precisely because they avoided things like wives and kids.

I get the argument.  I even agree with a lack of traditional parenting being a big problem in American society.  My disagreement with the conservative use of trad wives as a rallying point is that most people lack the opportunity to live that lifestyle, not the desire.  

[*Nately120*]

(05-28-2024, 05:43 PM)samhain Wrote: I get the argument.  I even agree with a lack of traditional parenting being a big problem in American society.  My disagreement with the conservative use of trad wives as a rallying point is that most people lack the opportunity to live that lifestyle, not the desire.  

I followed the conservative mantra of "You shouldn't have kids if you can't afford to have kids" so they can't get me to follow that advice and also get me to have enough money to have 3+ kids and a wife who doesn't work.  I did my part by following at least part of their plan to get this country back on track.

To paraphrase the Simpsons...if I had 3 kids I'd have no money, so at least now I have no kids and 3 money. 

[Dill]

(05-28-2024, 01:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: But, but he's encouraging women to be trad wives, as well as applauding career minded women. He can't support both, he's gotta be lying to one of those groups...

He is certainly encouraging women to be trad wives. That a woman's true fulfilment and purpose. 

Was he really APPLAUDING career women though?  I hear him praising his wife for leaving behind
a career with no regrets. 

What do you think he meant by referencing the "diabolical lies" women are told? Some MAY have "successful
careers" but he tells those young women thinking about careers and titles that "most" will be excited by prospects of "marriage and the children."

I don't think he's supporting BOTH trad wives and career-minded women, and I don't think he is lying to EITHER group. 

(Hope no one responds to this telling me "He has a right"--as if that were being disputed.) 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-29-2024, 12:30 AM)Dill Wrote: He is certainly encouraging women to be trad wives. That a woman's true fulfilment and purpose. 

Was he really APPLAUDING career women though?  I hear him praising his wife for leaving behind
a career with no regrets. 

What do you think he meant by referencing the "diabolical lies" women are told? Some MAY have "successful
careers" but he tells those young women thinking about careers and titles that "most" will be excited by prospects of "marriage and the children."

I don't think he's supporting BOTH trad wives and career-minded women, and I don't think he is lying to EITHER group. 

(Hope no one responds to this telling me "He has a right"--as if that were being disputed.) 

I don't think he was knocking either choice, but letting them know that his wife was one of them and she's happy being a mom because that is what SHE choose. She wasn't forced into it. Each woman will make up her own mind depending on their available options. Only they will know what's best for them. 

[Dill]

(05-29-2024, 12:42 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I don't think he was knocking either choice, but letting them know that his wife was one of them and she's happy being a mom because that is what SHE choose. She wasn't forced into it. Each woman will make up her own mind depending on their available options. Only they will know what's best for them. 

And what are the "diabolical lies" women are told?  

Certainly not that "most" will find fulfilment as wives and mothers. 

He doesn't seem to be saying that only they will know what's best for them,
if he's also saying most will find fulfilment in marriage in children. 

Each individual woman may know what's best for her, but he seems to know what best for "most." 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-29-2024, 12:57 AM)Dill Wrote: And what are the "diabolical lies" women are told?  

Certainly not that "most" will find fulfilment as wives and mothers. 

He doesn't seem to be saying that only they will know what's best for them,
if he's also saying most will find fulfilment in marriage in children. 

Each individual woman may know what's best for her, but he seems to know what best for "most." 

Aren't you a parent? If so, no idea why have to explain this to you. 

Being a parent is one of the best feelings anyone can have. 
Men and women are not created equally, women are anatomically designed to bring life into the world. 

The diabolical lies are that women are told that being a Traditional mother is oppressive because they rely on the man to financially support them, and that children get in the way of careers.  There is no shame in being a traditional stay at home mother, but with this entire thread, it seems that Liberal side is certainly shaming them for their choice. 

Btw, did you know that the number of Married and Educated Traditional moms has been on a sharp rise in the last 20 years?  More and more educated women are Choosing to be traditional stay at home moms for the betterment of their children while their children are young. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4855832/Meet-young-educated-women-proud-housewives.html
https://theconversation.com/mothers-education-has-a-powerful-role-shaping-their-childrens-futures-203539

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(05-29-2024, 04:27 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Being a parent is one of the best feelings anyone can have. 
Men and women are not created equally, women are anatomically designed to bring life into the world. 

The diabolical lies are that women are told that being a Traditional mother is oppressive because they rely on the man to financially support them, and that children get in the way of careers.  There is no shame in being a traditional stay at home mother, but with this entire thread, it seems that Liberal side is certainly shaming them for their choice. 

I am waiting for a commencement speech championing the benefits of men being stay at home dog dads.

Sadly, that will likely get shouted down just as quick by the insecure, hand wringing left...

[GMDino]

(05-29-2024, 04:27 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Aren't you a parent? If so, no idea why have to explain this to you. 

Being a parent is one of the best feelings anyone can have. 
Men and women are not created equally, women are anatomically designed to bring life into the world. 

The diabolical lies are that women are told that being a Traditional mother is oppressive because they rely on the man to financially support them, and that children get in the way of careers.  There is no shame in being a traditional stay at home mother, but with this entire thread, it seems that Liberal side is certainly shaming them for their choice. 

Btw, did you know that the number of Married and Educated Traditional moms has been on a sharp rise in the last 20 years?  More and more educated women are Choosing to be traditional stay at home moms for the betterment of their children while their children are young. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4855832/Meet-young-educated-women-proud-housewives.html
https://theconversation.com/mothers-education-has-a-powerful-role-shaping-their-childrens-futures-203539

Just to the two bold.

1) "ONE" of...

There is also the best feeling of being successful outside of the home, reaching your goals, traveling by yourself, etc.

When my parents met my mom was working.  They decided that when they got married dad would work and mom would stay home.  They are still married and that continues to this day.  (Dad is nearly 80 and still works part time because he wants to.) They raised two children and put us both through Catholic school even after dad lost his job when I was a freshman in high school.  That was the 80's.

My wife's husband and his wife swore they would never have kids.  They lived a pretty good life with both of them working and were built a beautiful home.  After our daughter was born they changed their minds and ended up with two great kids of their own.  But they still both worked.

I am a father of two.  My wife was working before I met her and continues to work.  While she was pregnant with our second child she started college and took seven years to graduate while still working.

She had many "great feelings".

Now we were in that fortunate group that had much family support.  Always had someone to help with childcare, for example. I had a job very close to home, with a very understanding boss/.owner, so I could leave and handle things like doctor appointments if I had to.

I missed ONE of my kid's events in school or church because of work...I got lost on the way home from a new customer.

I had many "great feelings" whether I was home with our kids while she was traveling for work or whether I was working too.

2) I haven't seen anyone say women should NOT be trad wives or "shaming" those who made that choice, let alone "though the entire thread".  

I've seen people say it is a choice and just because Butker or you think it is better doesn't mean it is.  I've seen people say they understand why he gave that speech because of who he is and where he was speaking but that he should also understand that many of the people he was speaking to and who heard the speech later would have different ideas.

My issue is that Butker and people like him are so convinced that their way is the only way that when someone speaks back about it they claim they are being attacks, shamed, etc.  It's an exchange of ideas. 

[GMDino]

(05-29-2024, 08:00 AM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: I am waiting for a commencement speech championing the benefits of men being stay at home dog dads.

Sadly, that will likely get shouted down just as quick by the insecure, hand wringing left...

I always said that I wanted to marry a rich woman too proud to have her husband work.   

Seriously.  The best man even mentioned it in his speech at my wedding...lol.

As a liberal I don't care about that at all.  In fact I'd gather that many "liberals" would have no problem with the man staying home and the woman working and the pushback would be from the Chads on the right.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-29-2024, 08:39 AM)GMDino Wrote: I always said that I wanted to marry a rich woman too proud to have her husband work.   

Seriously.  The best man even mentioned it in his speech at my wedding...lol.

As a liberal I don't care about that at all.  In fact I'd gather that many "liberals" would have no problem with the man staying home and the woman working and the pushback would be from the Chads on the right.

Who is Chad?