Has democracy ended in the U.S.?

[Bengalzona]

Has democracy ended in the U.S.?

[Belsnickel]

I have a different answer. Yes, it is a plutocracy.

Edit: Maybe a corporatocracy, if you prefer.

[jj22]

We've certainly misjudged American voters love for Democracy and the Free world. Is it the Majority? It's getting there, but as Trump attempts to move America more and more towards his vision of a Dictatorship, and the Republican Congress refuses to do their job (checks and balances), along with the support for these moves by American voters (Anti Europe, Anti West, Pro Putin/Kim, Ok w/ stealing SCOTUS seats) you have to hope that this is only temporary insanity. I think Dems thought people would be against a move towards Dictatorship, and thus downplayed Trumps candidacy , but they underestimated American voters, and certainly misjudged Americans support for our Allies.

[Belsnickel]

I do want to say that the current state of our democracy is an interesting one that a lot of people tend to have misconceptions about. We're seeing a similar pattern currently to what we have seen in some South American countries with demagogues that have stripped countries of their democratic systems. But we're at a crossroads. Right now it has been mostly talk, very little action. So we have time to right this ship and put us back on course. The problem is that the current batch of elected officials are not the cause of this, they are merely a culmination of decades of this bullshit that both parties have been guilty of. The erosion of norms in our institutions has been on a steady roll since the late '60s and while Trump has currently cranked up the volume, the system was broken before he came on the scene.

[Bengalzona]

(07-02-2018, 10:10 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I do want to say that the current state of our democracy is an interesting one that a lot of people tend to have misconceptions about. We're seeing a similar pattern currently to what we have seen in some South American countries with demagogues that have stripped countries of their democratic systems. But we're at a crossroads. Right now it has been mostly talk, very little action. So we have time to right this ship and put us back on course. The problem is that the current batch of elected officials are not the cause of this, they are merely a culmination of decades of this bullshit that both parties have been guilty of. The erosion of norms in our institutions has been on a steady roll since the late '60s and while Trump has currently cranked up the volume, the system was broken before he came on the scene.

Oh boy! Death Squads! Yay!

[Belsnickel]

(07-02-2018, 10:15 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: Oh boy! Death Squads! Yay!

I don't think that is the model we will see. But you never know.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

2008:

Democrats: Yeah, democracy is great, we elected the first black President!

Republicans: We just elected a socialist, terrorist sympathizer, we're seeing the death of our democracy!


2016:

Democrats: We just elected a racist demagogue, we're seeing the death of our democracy!

Republicans: Yeah, democracy is great, we elected a president who actually cares about the country!

[*michaelsean*]

We should just put signs all along the border:

"Abandon all hope ye who enter here".

[*michaelsean*]

What happened to option 4?

4. No. Quit being a drama queen.

[Bengalzona]

(07-02-2018, 10:30 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: 2008:  

Democrats: Yeah, democracy is great, we elected the first black President!

Republicans:  We just elected a socialist, terrorist sympathizer, we're seeing the death of our democracy!


2016:

Democrats:  We just elected a racist demagogue, we're seeing the death of our democracy!

Republicans:  Yeah, democracy is great, we elected a president who actually cares about the country!

2018:

Democrats: We have GOP controlled House and Senate reinforced by rampant jerrymandering, a POTUS who didn't win the popular vote and appears to have been supported by a foreign power, and now a conservative-stacked SCOTUS. This doesn't look like democracy anymore.

Republicans: There's nothing to see here. Stop whining! We had to put up with Obama for 8 years.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-02-2018, 10:51 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: 2018:

Democrats: We have GOP controlled House and Senate reinforced by rampant jerrymandering, a POTUS who didn't win the popular vote and appears to have been supported by a foreign power, and now a conservative-stacked SCOTUS. This doesn't look like democracy anymore.

Republicans: There's nothing to see here. Stop whining! We had to put up with Obama for 8 years.

The senate cannot be affected by gerrymandering, nor is gerrymandering confined to the GOP.  Winning the popular vote hasn't mattered since the EC was put in place hundreds of years ago (back when we still had a democracy amirite?).  The Russia accusation is a nice bit of solace for people unhappy with the election results.  If Hillary had won we'd have a liberal stacked SCOTUS, which I assume would suit the Democrats and their voters just fine.  I reiterate my original point.

[GMDino]

(07-02-2018, 10:30 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: 2008:  

Democrats: Yeah, democracy is great, we elected the first black President!

Republicans:  We just elected a socialist, terrorist sympathizer, we're seeing the death of our democracy!


2016:

Democrats:  We just elected a racist demagogue, we're seeing the death of our democracy!

Republicans:  Yeah, democracy is great, we elected a president who actually cares about the country!

Ah the old "both sides do it" argument!  Mixed up with a bit of "Obama was just as bad as Trump" shortsightedness.  That's a classic!

(07-02-2018, 10:42 AM)michaelsean Wrote: What happened to option 4?

4. No.  Quit being a drama queen.

It's hidden behind people who want to discuss the problems we are having openly instead of pretending nothing bad is happening.

(07-02-2018, 10:51 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: 2018:

Democrats: We have GOP controlled House and Senate reinforced by rampant jerrymandering, a POTUS who didn't win the popular vote and appears to have been supported by a foreign power, and now a conservative-stacked SCOTUS. This doesn't look like democracy anymore.

Republicans: There's nothing to see here. Stop whining! We had to put up with Obama for 8 years.

While I hold out hope that our system will indeed continue to be self-correcting I share your concern.  One of the many problems with Trump is his inability to see the forest for the trees.  He sees something on the new and it becomes "his" idea.  that goes out via social media adn the same news reports it to reinforce "his" idea.  No research, no thought, just an idea.  Meanwhile the "checks and balances" are being undone in order to not upset the angry man who will call them names and make them risk losing votes...and power.  

Democracy is not dead.  But it was coughing up blood last night.



































Shiny quarter for those who get that reference.  

[Bengalzona]

(07-02-2018, 11:01 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The senate cannot be affected by gerrymandering, nor is gerrymandering confined to the GOP.  Winning the popular vote hasn't mattered since the EC was put in place hundreds of years ago (back when we still had a democracy amirite?).  The Russia accusation is a nice bit of solace for people unhappy with the election results.  If Hillary had won we'd have a liberal stacked SCOTUS, which I assume would suit the Democrats and their voters just fine.  I reiterate my original point.

The House is being reinforced by rampant jerrymandering and it is now done on a scale far beyond anything we have seen in modern history.

The popular vote is generally indicator of how the EC should have went, considering they are supposed to represent their areas.

The Mueller investigation has 16 indictments and 5 guilty please.... so far. Something was going on there.

Stacked SCOTUS is icing on a cake when the same party also runs both other branches. One party rule of all three branches. No checks and balances.

[Benton]

(07-02-2018, 09:50 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have a different answer. Yes, it is a plutocracy.

Edit: Maybe a corporatocracy, if you prefer.

This is pretty close to my thinking.

We're supposed to have representative government. But when you're only choices are people that don't represent the bulk of the people — either because of their economic background, their ties to special interests or other differences — then you don't have representation. About 25% of US households make less than $25,000 a year. I'd guess less than 10% in Congress made less than four times that prior to getting elected.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-02-2018, 11:01 AM)GMDino Wrote: Ah the old "both sides do it" argument!  Mixed up with a bit of "Obama was just as bad as Trump" shortsightedness.  That's a classic!

I see your time away from us did nothing to improve your reading comprehension.  My post didn't say or imply anything that you allege.

(07-02-2018, 11:08 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: The House is being reinforced by rampant jerrymandering and it is now done on a scale far beyond anything we have seen in modern history.

Agreed with the first part, not so much with the second.

Quote:The popular vote is generally indicator of how the EC should have went, considering they are supposed to represent their areas.

The key word in your sentence being "generally".

Quote:The Mueller investigation has 16 indictments and 5 guilty please.... so far. Something was going on there.

None of which indicate collusion between Trump and Russia.

Quote:Stacked SCOTUS is icing on a cake when the same party also runs both other branches. One party rule of all three branches. No checks and balances.

Sure, we have no checks and balances, which is why every item on Trump's agenda has been implemented with ease. 

[*michaelsean*]

(07-02-2018, 11:01 AM)GMDino Wrote:   


It's hidden behind people who want to discuss the problems we are having openly instead of pretending nothing bad is happening.


 


































 

And how does covering all the different options prevent that?  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

This seems like a good place to put this.


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/06/27/the-tawdry-and-dumb-nazi-charge-218932

[GMDino]

(07-02-2018, 11:24 AM)michaelsean Wrote: And how does covering all the different options prevent that?  

The same way calling people who talk about feelings and treating others fairly "snowflakes" does.  Demean the person who asks the question and wants to talk about the issue to imply there IS NO issue.

[GMDino]

(07-02-2018, 11:26 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This seems like a good place to put this.


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/06/27/the-tawdry-and-dumb-nazi-charge-218932

So basically "Yeah Trump is an awful person who says and does awful things that "sound" like he is on his way to being Hitler but he didn't didn't EVERYTHING Hitler did do stop talking about Nazis."  

It's the lowering of the bar that got Trump this far in his life...

[Beaker]

The entitlement mentality of our current society can help explain the cause of almost every point brought up in this thread so far.