Has democracy ended in the U.S.?

[Belsnickel]

(07-02-2018, 02:33 PM)Beaker Wrote: This is another way of saying what I was trying to say. 

I know. The way you put it could be interpreted in a much different way, but I knew that was what you were getting at.

(07-02-2018, 02:48 PM)Millhouse Wrote: In regards to plutocracy, one can argue this has been the case since the colonial & revolution days.

But the corporatocracy, now that is something to think about it because of the amount of influence corporations have on the media and those in power. Throw in the influence from the MIC and NSIC (Military and National Security Industrial Complex) coupled with corporate influence, then imo, then we very well are just living under a system that on the face still looks like a Democracy.

It should be noted that any decline of our democracy is not because of Trump, but because of other powers to be that have been in place since the 1960s.

One could argue the plutocracy point from the beginning, but we've had an ebb and flow of democracy since then. The Reconstruction Amendments democratized the country, so did women's suffrage. Through history we have seen plutocracy and democracy battle each other. Because of the decline in wealth and some of the effective policies, we were highly democratic in the post-WWII era for a couple of decades, then things changed about 40 years ago and have been getting worse since.

As to your last point, I agree. I've even said in this thread that Trump is a result, not a cause.

(07-02-2018, 03:01 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Robert Reich has been bugging my house over the last 15+ years......

You ought to check out his works; it's some good stuff.

[Dill]

(07-02-2018, 12:48 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: And that is also what I was saying in my earlier post. Because a person uses a similar tactic or approach that Nazis once used, that doesn't make them a Nazi. There is not enough correlating evidence to support the sweepingly general statement. However, it is accurate to say they used the same tactic or approach as the Nazis. That is not saying that they ARE Nazis, only that they used a similar tactic or approach (and don't we all do that at some point or another?).  

If someone tells me they are a vegetarian and I reply that Hitler used to be a vegetarian, I didn't just call them like Hitler. And no sane person would take it that way in common conversation. Similarly, if I say we now have one-party rule similar to the way the Soviets used to have one-party rule, that is just stating a correlation.

LOL Be careful B-zona, There are rightists who see the origin of environmentalism in Nazism. It would not surprise me if some connected vegetarianism to Nazism as well. Depends on how much you hate the "ism".

That's why I think it is better to use the term "authoritarian" when speaking of Trump in public forums. He clearly is that. Most Americans don't really know much about Nazism or Fascism, except they remember something about Jews and ovens, and then a big war.  One can reel off a list of the nascent Nazi party's issues--the focus on borders and "immigrants," the merging of church and state, and hatred of religious groups supposed unassimilable, and of liberals, feminists and "socialists," not to mention the free press--and find affinities or outright support with Trumpism. That is hair raising for political scientists and historians, but the similarities or affinities to contemporary authoritarianism may not be clear to non-specialists--and threatening to many who agree with parts of that platform.

It is easy to deflect Hitler comparisons because Trump hasn't killed millions of people and that's what Hitler stands for--not a very specific regime of anti-liberal policies. It is less easy to explain away the authoritarianism. And if people don't know what counts as that, it can be explained with less chance of deflection. And people should do that, rather than assent to the normalization of Trumpism, by which I include his vulgar and uncivil behavior.

Also, I think we should be looking for features of the Trump movement that are specifically American, and may have no precedent at all in what has traditionally been called "fascism."   Even the most ideological and partisan Americans who repeat party talking points they can't themselves explain or defend still insist they speak and think for themselves. They don't bind to political organizations as directly and completely as Nazis/fascists did, don't go for uniforms to confirm identity and conformity--though they can still be mobilized into a movement orchestrated from the top down by anger, erosion of civil and political norms, and daily fogging/disputation of fact. We should be careful of applying old familiar labels to what might be a wholly new form of authoritarian politics.  In 1919 Nazis, who had invented a new political ideology, didn't have a unique name for it yet, and so attached "national" to the familiar "socialist."   If we say "fascist" to soon then we may be looking for old stuff that isn't there and missing the new stuff.

NB just re-edited the 2nd, 3rd and 4th paragraph

[Bengalzona]

(07-02-2018, 03:21 PM)Wyche Wrote: I've been surviving all of these douchebag sellouts since Carter.

I've been surviving them since Johnson, who incidently actually showed his johnson to someone while he was President.

Carter wasn't a good POTUS, but he was sincere. For more than any of the others.

Nixon used to be the worst. But even he had some good points.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(07-02-2018, 05:27 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Nixon used to be the worst. But even he had some good points.

until Obama, right?
RIGHT?

[Bengalzona]

(07-02-2018, 05:29 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: until Obama, right?
RIGHT?

Keep going just a little further.

[Dill]

(07-02-2018, 12:53 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Agreed. I can say that the patterns we see happening in the US are similar to what we have seen in South America, but I'm not going to say Trump is like Chavez or Fujimori.

Do you think that is because of internal restraint or because of external?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(07-02-2018, 06:11 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Keep going just a little further.

Bill then, it has to be Bill.

[Dill]

(07-02-2018, 12:11 PM)jj22 Wrote: Difference is you guys rely on Fake News to slam Obama, while Trump provides real news worthy of critique.

So you have those who are outraged over fake news and conspiracy theories concerning Obama and Hillary, while Trump is doing exactly what you guys are outraged over fake news/Conspiracy theories about, and yet you guys are fine with it when it is happening in real life. Go figure.

There is a denial in two aspects here.

The Obama/Hillary conspiracies rely on disregard of the factual record.

Trump defenses do pretty much the same.

In one case, the goal was to use right wing media to create facts. In the other it was to use that media to deny them.

That's why now people can say "Republicans thought the world would end under Obama and now Democrats are doing the same. Both sides do it"

Except it's not the same.  No president has EVER behaved as badly in public as Trump, or know as little about governing, and no group of supporters has ever cared less how he behaves or knows.

[Millhouse]

(07-02-2018, 06:23 PM)Dill Wrote: There is a denial in two aspects here.

The Obama/Hillary conspiracies rely on disregard of the factual record.

Trump defenses do pretty much the same.

In one case, the goal was to use right wing media to create facts. In the other it was to use that media to deny them.

That's why now people can say "Republicans thought the world would end under Obama and now Democrats are doing the same. Both sides do it"

Except it's not the same.  No president has EVER behaved as badly in public as Trump, or know as little about governing, and no group of supporters has ever cared less how he behaves or knows.

Bill says I agree and thanks for your support for this woman next to me.

[Bengalzona]

(07-02-2018, 06:23 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Bill then, it has to be Bill.

No, but no fan of his. Other direction on the timeline. Ooops! I mean... "colder,colder!"

[Bengalzona]

(07-02-2018, 07:09 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Bill says I agree and thanks for your support for this woman next to me.

Is that her "oral pleasure" face?

Took him long enough to train her!

[Millhouse]

(07-02-2018, 07:29 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Is that her "oral pleasure" face?

Took him long enough to train her!

Lul. This was actually when the balloons were released back at her nomination get together thingy. At the time, there were quite a few theories out there ranging from an alien that assumed her form to a future android being sent back in time to her having an undisclosed medical condition. Either way, she just 'ain't right' as some fine fellow Americans would have put it.

[Bengalzona]

(07-02-2018, 07:43 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Lul. This was actually when the balloons were released back at her nomination get together thingy. At the time, there were quite a few theories out there ranging from an alien that assumed her form to a future android being sent back in time to her having an undisclosed medical condition. Either way, she just 'ain't right' as some fine fellow Americans would have put it.

I'm quite sad. I haven't got any compliments on my new sig.

Do you think people just can't figure it out?

[Millhouse]

(07-02-2018, 07:53 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I'm quite sad. I haven't got any compliments on my new sig.

Do you think people just can't figure it out?

I have had sigs turned off for years now, as they disrupt my thread scrolling.

*ok turned it on to see, and is that a golf themed joke?

[*bfine32*]

(07-02-2018, 07:53 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I'm quite sad. I haven't got any compliments on my new sig.

Do you think people just can't figure it out?

I find it humorous (minesweeper) but it's not all about you. I have not gotten any comments on my sig either and it's a sports based sig in a sports based message board. 

[GMDino]

This is what I think about "both sides do it".

[Belsnickel]

(07-02-2018, 06:15 PM)Dill Wrote: Do you think that is because of internal restraint or because of external?

I think that the saving grace is that there are just enough GOP officials willing to check him. I also think it helps that the media is trusted more than him. If that reverses, it would be interesting to see what happens.

[GMDino]

[*michaelsean*]

(07-02-2018, 08:05 PM)GMDino Wrote: This is what I think about "both sides do it".

Total burn. Can you tell me the issues that I consider me over us?

[GMDino]

(07-02-2018, 08:33 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Total burn. Can you tell me the issues that I consider me over us?

No.  I can't tell you what you think.

I can tell you that the current "right wing" cares only about themselves.  Unless you count caring for their corporate sponsors.