High school locker rooms and transgender

[StLucieBengal]

(11-05-2015, 10:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: No doubt girls can be meaner than boys.  

The question is then is there a majority who are "uncomfortable"?  It might be a "minority" who oppose it.  

Quite the conundrum!

I had a very good friend in high school who was gay.  Clearly gay.  But it wasn't something that talked about.  Today he is married to his long time partner and living quite happily.  When I went to college I found out the girl I was dating was also friends with him as he went to our sister college and she took classes at both places.  I jokingly said that knowing he was "out: now makes all those gym classes weird.  And she replied "What makes you think he was interested in you?" 

 

Point taken!

We allow our own fears to influence what we think OTHER people think.

When did these people become gay? Not all of them are gay. They just are playing dress up. Not sure why you keep comparing them to gays.... They aren't the same .

[GMDino]

(11-05-2015, 01:30 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: When did these people become gay?  Not all of them are gay.   They just are playing dress up.   Not sure why you keep comparing them to gays....    They aren't the same .

I am not comparing them.  I am pointing out that YOU insist there will be "trouble" if a boy who thinks he's a girl is in the female locker room.   I am pointing out that a lesbian in the female locker room is MORE likely to be attracted to the other girls there and cause "trouble".

They are not "playing dress up".  They are dressing as how they feel they really are.

I think the bigger problem is YOU have a predetermined idea on how boys should act around girls and anything outside of that is too weird so you assume they are faking just to cause trouble.  And for the millionth time you have provided not ONE example of it ever happening.  

[StLucieBengal]

(11-05-2015, 01:37 PM)GMDino Wrote: I am not comparing them.  I am pointing out that YOU insist there will be "trouble" if a boy who thinks he's a girl is in the female locker room.   I am pointing out that a lesbian in the female locker room is MORE likely to be attracted to the other girls there and cause "trouble".

They are not "playing dress up".  They are dressing as how they feel they really are.

I think the bigger problem is YOU have a predetermined idea on how boys should act around girls and anything outside of that is too weird so you assume they are faking just to cause trouble.  And for the millionth time you have provided not ONE example of it ever happening.  

Every time we discuss this and I bring up how inappropriate this is.... You go to the gay well. And talk about how many gay people you know . This isn't about gays. This is about keeping Locker rooms and restrooms separate by anatomy.

The same argument against communal rest rooms is the same one against this ....

We all know gay people. this has nothing to do with them . Just the he/she's or she/he's

[Belsnickel]

(11-05-2015, 01:47 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Every time we discuss this and I bring up how inappropriate this is.... You go to the gay well. And talk about how many gay people you know . This isn't about gays. This is about keeping Locker rooms and restrooms separate by anatomy.

The same argument against communal rest rooms is the same one against this ....

We all know gay people. this has nothing to do with them . Just the he/she's or she/he's

I think the issue is that some of us see no reason for it to be inappropriate other than the sexual angle, and if we are looking at the sexual angle then the question of people attracted to the same sex as themselves is a legitimate one.

It's hard if the only reason we see for it being inappropriate is the sexual angle when the only explanation for any other angle is just that it is because anatomy. Without having something descriptive as to why it is inappropriate other than the sexual angle, how can we really discuss the issue other than that one angle?

[Vas Deferens]

(11-05-2015, 01:30 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: When did these people become gay?  Not all of them are gay.   They just are playing dress up.   Not sure why you keep comparing them to gays....    They aren't the same .

ignorance is bliss.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-05-2015, 01:52 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think the issue is that some of us see no reason for it to be inappropriate other than the sexual angle, and if we are looking at the sexual angle then the question of people attracted to the same sex as themselves is a legitimate one.

It's hard if the only reason we see for it being inappropriate is the sexual angle when the only explanation for any other angle is just that it is because anatomy. Without having something descriptive as to why it is inappropriate other than the sexual angle, how can we really discuss the issue other than that one angle?

You have already admitted that you do not see the issue because you do not have children. There is nothing for you to protect in these instances, you are looking at this like .... Who cares let them all live ..... This issue tears away at a lot of things in a school setting. It's not just about locker room usage. It basically blows up girls sports. Which ironically title 9 was supposed to protect.

This isn't just about letting a small handful of kids play dress up. This impacts several things in schools.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-05-2015, 01:55 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: ignorance is bliss.

Until they commit to their "lifestyle" they are just pretending. Would respect them more if they got the chop. At least then we could allow them into these other areas.

[*bfine32*]

(11-05-2015, 01:52 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think the issue is that some of us see no reason for it to be inappropriate other than the sexual angle, and if we are looking at the sexual angle then the question of people attracted to the same sex as themselves is a legitimate one.

It's hard if the only reason we see for it being inappropriate is the sexual angle when the only explanation for any other angle is just that it is because anatomy. Without having something descriptive as to why it is inappropriate other than the sexual angle, how can we really discuss the issue other than that one angle?

Because sexual and attraction is not the same thing.

It most definately is a sexual thing

[Belsnickel]

(11-05-2015, 01:58 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: You have already admitted that you do not see the issue because you do not have children. There is nothing for you to protect in these instances, you are looking at this like .... Who cares let them all live ..... This issue tears away at a lot of things in a school setting. It's not just about locker room usage. It basically blows up girls sports. Which ironically title 9 was supposed to protect.

This isn't just about letting a small handful of kids play dress up. This impacts several things in schools.

I've admitted I don't see any other issues because of that, but I've yet to have anyone try to explain why it is inappropriate beyond the sexual aspect. Only statements that it is. As for the sports, it doesn't "blow up" girls' sports. It does cause some issues with it, but nothing that can be overcome quite easily. Title IX is about much more than sports, it is about equality.

[Belsnickel]

(11-05-2015, 02:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Because sexual and attraction is not the same thing.

It most definately is a sexual thing

I don't really see a difference there. Sexual reasons are rooted in attraction and I keep being told is isn't about the sexual angle, that it is inappropriate for other reasons, but I haven't had those other reasons explained.

[Rotobeast]

Let's consider another angle....... (although touched upon earlier with the meanness of some girls) 

How about we consider the protection of the transsexual male, in the female locker room.
Girls are far more sexually aggressive than they used to be.
It is possible that there will be some girls gawking/staring at a penis in their locker room.
It is also possible that they would make vocal remarks of "getting some of that hog".
In the worse case scenario, they may even physically/sexually attack the transgender person.

I feel this is a situation that we most certainly need to avoid, to prevent the obvious litigation and preserving the welfare of all children.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-05-2015, 02:07 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I've admitted I don't see any other issues because of that, but I've yet to have anyone try to explain why it is inappropriate beyond the sexual aspect. Only statements that it is. As for the sports, it doesn't "blow up" girls' sports. It does cause some issues with it, but nothing that can be overcome quite easily. Title IX is about much more than sports, it is about equality.

Girls sports will die off because real girls just won't be chosen for teams . There is a reason girls and boys are separated for sports. A distinct physical reason. Now that someone can be a chameleon there is nothing to help TE real girls.

It's not just sexual. Girls and boys barely know their own body and how it works. How will a girl feel when she has her period for the first time and in the locker room is a dude. And really how will the pretender feel when he says he is a girl but he is the only one not doing girl things....

Women PE teachers watch the girls locker rooms .... How are they supposed to do that when there are naked boys in the girls Locker rooms... Can't allow a man to go in there to supervise.....

[*bfine32*]

(11-05-2015, 02:09 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't really see a difference there. Sexual reasons are rooted in attraction and I keep being told is isn't about the sexual angle, that it is inappropriate for other reasons, but I haven't had those other reasons explained.

I don't keep telling you this. It is definately about sex and exposure of youngsters to those of the opposite sex. These children are not old enough to consent; therefore, we must establish boundries.

If a grown male wants to take a dump in a female facility and the of age females there do not object then have at it.

[GodHatesBengals]

I was at a fairly big Halloween party over the weekend. The girls got sick of waiting in line to use their own restroom and started going into the dude's.

It really wasn't a big deal at all.

[Rotobeast]

(11-05-2015, 02:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Girls sports will die off because real girls just won't be chosen for teams .  There is a reason girls and boys are separated for sports.    A distinct physical reason.   Now that someone can be a chameleon there is nothing to help TE real girls.    

It's not just sexual.   Girls and boys barely know their own body and how it works.   How will a girl feel when she has her period for the first time and in the locker room is a dude.   And really how will the pretender feel when he says he is a girl but he is the only one not doing girl things....    

Women PE teachers watch the girls locker rooms .... How are they supposed to do that when there are naked boys in the girls Locker rooms...   Can't allow a man to go in there to supervise.....

This is quite the good point.

Which harkens back to what I suggested earlier that it be against the rules to be naked in front of anyone, in a public school.
Changing stalls, private shower stalls, and no nakies.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-05-2015, 02:27 PM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: I was at a fairly big Halloween party over the weekend. The girls got sick of waiting in line to use their own restroom and started going into the dude's.

It really wasn't a big deal at all.

This is why it's less of a big deal when adults are involved. Children are different. And a private bathroom at a party isn't the same as public or school open bathroom facility.

[GMDino]

(11-05-2015, 01:52 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think the issue is that some of us see no reason for it to be inappropriate other than the sexual angle, and if we are looking at the sexual angle then the question of people attracted to the same sex as themselves is a legitimate one.

It's hard if the only reason we see for it being inappropriate is the sexual angle when the only explanation for any other angle is just that it is because anatomy. Without having something descriptive as to why it is inappropriate other than the sexual angle, how can we really discuss the issue other than that one angle?

Exactly!


He has nothing except "something...something...shenanigans".

NOW its about girls sports.

Keeps missing so keeps moving the target.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-05-2015, 02:27 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: This is quite the good point.

Which harkens back to what I suggested earlier that it be against the rules to be naked in front of anyone, in a public school.
Changing stalls, private shower stalls, and no nakies.

Not all schools have the private stalls. It's very expensive and this isn't a priority for most districts. I was a PE teacher for quite a few years and I will tell you this would make me really uncomfortable, given all the potential for litigation, you are screwed either way as a teacher.

Now a story...: I had a female who taught with me and watched the girls room..:: She was out for maternity leave and they didn't give me a female at first as a sub. So I had a another man for a week. Thursday of that week a fight broke out in the girls locker room while they were changing. I called the office immediately because there was no female PE teacher. Then we ran in to break it up to make sure the girls were safe. Parents made a big deal that male teachers were in the girls locker room during changing time. The principle told me that she wanted me to wait and allow a female teacher to run in there next time. The thing that saved me from a write up was that I called the office for help.

Now what if there was a boy in there saying he was a girl. Would the female teacher be constantly at risk? That's not fair, and an inappropriate work enviornment for that teacher.

[Belsnickel]

(11-05-2015, 02:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Girls sports will die off because real girls just won't be chosen for teams . There is a reason girls and boys are separated for sports. A distinct physical reason. Now that someone can be a chameleon there is nothing to help TE real girls.

Except their are not enough trans women in the school systems for this to happen. So this is really just hyperbolic.

(11-05-2015, 02:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: It's not just sexual. Girls and boys barely know their own body and how it works. How will a girl feel when she has her period for the first time and in the locker room is a dude. And really how will the pretender feel when he says he is a girl but he is the only one not doing girl things....

I don't know, do you know? Honestly, truthfully, do you know how any of these children would feel in those situations? I'd wager the answer here is no among all of us. I'd put money down that these young people being educated about all of these things will help all parties feel less awkward about it all, but we don't know how any of them feel and we should stop pretending like we do.

(11-05-2015, 02:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Women PE teachers watch the girls locker rooms .... How are they supposed to do that when there are naked boys in the girls Locker rooms... Can't allow a man to go in there to supervise.....

They do? In my school district the PE teachers don't go in the locker rooms at all unless there is a situation that needs their attention.

As to the stuff I put in bold. Please do try to at least be a respectful person with regards to your language. You've been inflammatory in your language here for a while, and I don't know whether or not you are doing it intentionally to get a rise out of some people or whether you have a legitimately hard time with it, but we are discussing people that consider themselves to be a particular gender. We're not talking about someone that just wakes up and decides to be a girl one day and a boy the next. We're discussing people that truly feel their biological sex does not reflect their gender and it is not something that should be approached in such a flippant manner as you are here. Your language has toned down on the issue since your time away, but it is still very disrespectful and it would be appreciated if you made some effort to make some adjustments.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(11-05-2015, 02:27 PM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: I was at a fairly big Halloween party over the weekend. The girls got sick of waiting in line to use their own restroom and started going into the dude's.

It really wasn't a big deal at all.

How many of those "girls" were under 18 that went into the men's restroom?

On top of that, if one of those girls was under 18 and she saw your hog (accidentally or intentionally) and she made a fuss about seeing it, then (I  could be wrong), I'd think that the cops would be more focused on your case of 'indecent exposure' than whether or not the girl was in the wrong restroom. Remember, ignorance isn't a valid defense.

Now just because you are comfortable with it, doesn't mean that everyone else is. What if there was a boy under 18 standing at urinal and a woman came in? How comfortable would he feel with a woman in the stall next to his urinal or simply walking past him as he's standing there.

There is a much greater risk for a woman in a mens room to see something that she shouldn't than the other way around.