High school locker rooms and transgender

[*bfine32*]

Do people see the irony in supporting someone who identifies as the opposite gender to be able to use the opposite sex's facility by stating: "It's not that big of a deal which facility one uses." If it is no big deal then why not just go to the facility that fits your body parts?

[Belsnickel]

(11-05-2015, 04:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do people see the irony in supporting someone who identifies as the opposite gender to be able to use the opposite sex's facility by stating: "It's not that big of a deal which facility one uses." If it is no big deal then why not just go to the facility that fits your body parts?

If a person identifies as being a woman and is going through the process for reassignment surgery they must live as a woman for a certain period of time in most instances. If we are going to force them to use the male restroom, that makes it difficult, no? So while not every trans person is going to undergo the surgery for reassignment, if we follow the thinking of using the restroom that matches your "equipment" then we create an impossible situation.

Just one reason why it is an issue.

Me, personally, I wouldn't care if every bathroom were unisex. But that's just me.

[GMDino]

(11-05-2015, 04:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do people see the irony in supporting someone who identifies as the opposite gender to be able to use the opposite sex's facility by stating: "It's not that big of a deal which facility one uses." If it is no big deal then why not just go to the facility that fits your body parts?

Primarily because there are laws against it.  (See the Houston thread).

But also because, personally, I don't identify as a female so I have no reason to even think about going in to their restroom.  Of course I didn't want to get naked in the boys locker room either as a kid.  Or an adult really.  

Now everyone raise your hand who has used the opposite sex's restroom or seen someone of the opposite sex in your bathroom.

[Belsnickel]

(11-05-2015, 05:14 PM)GMDino Wrote: Now everyone raise your hand who has used the opposite sex's restroom or seen someone of the opposite sex in your bathroom.

True story, walked into the bathroom at work one day and went into a stall on one side, seeing a stall on the other was occupied, you know, as we tend to do. I had some stomach issues and so things were a little more boisterous than usual. After the opening salvo, I heard a feminine voice say "damn girl!" I was a little startled and I'm sure she was when I replied "I think you have the wrong restroom."

There was quite the flurry of activity as she left in a hurried fashion.

[*bfine32*]

(11-05-2015, 05:12 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: If a person identifies as being a woman and is going through the process for reassignment surgery they must live as a woman for a certain period of time in most instances. If we are going to force them to use the male restroom, that makes it difficult, no? So while not every trans person is going to undergo the surgery for reassignment, if we follow the thinking of using the restroom that matches your "equipment" then we create an impossible situation.

Just one reason why it is an issue.

Me, personally, I wouldn't care if every bathroom were unisex. But that's just me.

I don't see a requirement to use the facility that matches your body parts as making a transistion more difficult. However, let's say it is. Does that mean the 99.5% of the population must conform to that .5%? Or should the .5% conform to the 99.5% until the proceedure is complete.

I'd also be curious to know how many school kids go through Gender reassignment surgery.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(11-05-2015, 05:14 PM)GMDino Wrote: Now everyone raise your hand who has used the opposite sex's restroom or seen someone of the opposite sex in your bathroom.

I've been involved in both.

I walked into the ladies room at work once when I had to pull an all-nighter, was tired and didn't realize it right off, I just kept trying to figure out what happened to the urinals.. until it hit me why there was no urinals.

And another time, I went into a public one and it had the big circular urinal... didn't realize it until afterwards when I couldn't find a sink to wash my hands that I was in the women's and just pissed in the sink...

Both of those times I was sober.

And of course women have walked in on me while in the mens at bars/concerts. And even had 2 different gfs go in with me just to 'help' me :) and in my younger years one went in just to help me button up my 501's (lesson learned there, don't get super drunk wearing button fly jeans).

But those were all adults in adult situations. Kids in high school are not in the same category. I would feel very uncomfortable with a young woman in the mens bathroom and I'm sure she would feel the same if a man was in the womens.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(11-01-2015, 01:12 PM)GMDino Wrote: Show one....just one...time where your fevered fantasy is true.

One.

You want the truth?  YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!

(11-05-2015, 02:22 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Can't hold a good man down crispy .

Despite Lucie's repeated attempts . . .



. . . he should know.  Thinking about this stuff is why Lucie can't sleep at night.

[Belsnickel]

(11-05-2015, 05:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I don't see a requirement to use the facility that matches your body parts as making a transistion more difficult. However, let's say it is. Does that mean the 99.5% of the population must conform to that .5%? Or should the .5% conform to the 99.5% until the proceedure is complete.

You may not see it as such, but is does. The goal of the transitioning period is to live your life as the gender you are. Being seen as and using the facilities of that gender is an important part of that. As to conforming part, what conforming is being done by sharing facilities with someone? If we're talking about a bathroom, there is going to be a stall involved in some manner most of the time and so you won't know any different. In a locker room, I'd be willing to bet that most instances you'd never know unless you were staring.

(11-05-2015, 05:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'd also be curious to know how many school kids go through Gender reassignment surgery.

Not during their school years, but someone who identifies as trans and gets support at a young age will often start living their lives as the gender they identify as very young. It makes the transition as an adult that much easier.

I had a class with two women that were both trans. Neither had gone through the surgery at that point. One came from a more supportive and accepting family and the other much the opposite. Both are the same age and have a very similar background as far as when they knew, etc. The young lady that didn't receive the support started things much later and so it was very obvious that she was a trans woman. When her friend revealed herself as trans, every guy in the room shifted in their seat because we had many discussions about her attractiveness. Not a clue among us. The difference was the age at which they started the transitioning process.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-05-2015, 03:56 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Except their are not enough trans women in the school systems for this to happen. So this is really just hyperbolic.


I don't know, do you know? Honestly, truthfully, do you know how any of these children would feel in those situations? I'd wager the answer here is no among all of us. I'd put money down that these young people being educated about all of these things will help all parties feel less awkward about it all, but we don't know how any of them feel and we should stop pretending like we do.


They do? In my school district the PE teachers don't go in the locker rooms at all unless there is a situation that needs their attention.

As to the stuff I put in bold. Please do try to at least be a respectful person with regards to your language. You've been inflammatory in your language here for a while, and I don't know whether or not you are doing it intentionally to get a rise out of some people or whether you have a legitimately hard time with it, but we are discussing people that consider themselves to be a particular gender. We're not talking about someone that just wakes up and decides to be a girl one day and a boy the next. We're discussing people that truly feel their biological sex does not reflect their gender and it is not something that should be approached in such a flippant manner as you are here. Your language has toned down on the issue since your time away, but it is still very disrespectful and it would be appreciated if you made some effort to make some adjustments.

1. He/she's will only grow if this proceeds.   They will just identify to compete in sports.    Kids already move schools at will now.   It will only take a girls soccer or basketball team winning with a boy.    There is pressure to win in high schools atheltics and lines are often crossed.    

2.  Kids know who does and doesn't belong in the men's and women's restroom.  

3.  My Office was in the boys locker room.   And my female teachers office was in the girls locker room .  There needs to be supervision in all places in the school.   Especially in a high risk areas like changing rooms.  

As for the comment about my choice of words.   According to Slate .... I am using words that show pride. You are advocating for a conservative position of taking away someone's identity....   This actually probably deserves its own thread, I am sure it will get lost in here.  

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/05/30/is_tranny_a_slur_or_an_identity_who_decides.html

Quote:RuPaul’s comments have joined impassioned missives from trans artist Mx. Justin Vivian Bond, trans author and artist Kate Bornstein, and drag performer Lady Bunny, all of whom in their own ways echoed RuPaul’s view that “banning” ***** was an example of a conservative minority speaking on behalf of—and doing a certain kind of violence to—those for whom the term is, in the words of Bornstein, a “valid, vibrant, and vital identity.” Bond is particularly blunt on this point:

What [critics of the word] fail to recognize is that by banishing the use of the word ***** they will not be getting rid of the transphobia of those who use it in a negative way. What it does do is steal a joyous and hard-won identity from those of us who are and have been perfectly comfortable, if not delighted to BE *****.

[Belsnickel]

(11-05-2015, 06:46 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: 1. He/she's will only grow if this proceeds.   They will just identify to compete in sports.    Kids already move schools at will now.   It will only take a girls soccer or basketball team winning with a boy.    There is pressure to win in high schools atheltics and lines are often crossed.  

 
I highly doubt this will be the case. As of right now, I doubt you could provide evidence to your claim that there will be those that identify only for a competitive edge. So I shall remain highly skeptical.

(11-05-2015, 06:46 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: 2.  Kids know who does and doesn't belong in the men's and women's restroom.

This has to do with...? This still doesn't mean you would know how they would feel in the situation.

(11-05-2015, 06:46 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: 3.  My Office was in the boys locker room.   And my female teachers office was in the girls locker room .  There needs to be supervision in all places in the school.   Especially in a high risk areas like changing rooms.

Huh, weird. Just not my experience in school. We had no adult supervision in our changing areas.  

(11-05-2015, 06:46 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: As for the comment about my choice of words.   According to Slate .... I am using words that show pride. You are advocating for a conservative position of taking away someone's identity....   This actually probably deserves its own thread, I am sure it will get lost in here.  

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/05/30/is_tranny_a_slur_or_an_identity_who_decides.html

It's all in the intent behind the words. If your other commentary on the subject did not show a lack of respect for the trans community, then it would not be as much of a concern. However, you have continually ridiculed the community in ways other than language, which points to the intent behind your language being that of derision.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-05-2015, 07:14 PM)Belsnickel Wrote:  
I highly doubt this will be the case. As of right now, I doubt you could provide evidence to your claim that there will be those that identify only for a competitive edge. So I shall remain highly skeptical.


This has to do with...? This still doesn't mean you would know how they would feel in the situation.


Huh, weird. Just not my experience in school. We had no adult supervision in our changing areas.  


It's all in the intent behind the words. If your other commentary on the subject did not show a lack of respect for the trans community, then it would not be as much of a concern. However, you have continually ridiculed the community in ways other than language, which points to the intent behind your language being that of derision.

1. I am going to just take your ignorance on the competitive nature of HS sports . This will be used as a weapon. Much like how enrolling your kids on other schools is used now. A boy could go dominate a girls sport . Heck Iran had 8 on their olympic soccer team. High school sports and winning are a big business. The pressure to win and win now is high.

2. As for the article. And your interpretation of my feelings towards them. I personally do not have any issue with them at all. I just don't want their lifestyle pushed upon me. We all live our own lives, but our public lives shouldn't be forced to accept some lifestyle that they have not fully committed to.... The fact that you think I have some anger towards them is hilarious. I have one that I hire to lay tile, dude does fantastic work. Maybe instead of trying to assume what's in my heart just ask me. You can be critical and suspect of people without being anti the person.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-05-2015, 06:23 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You want the truth?  YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!




Despite Lucie's repeated attempts . . .



. . . he should know.  Thinking about this stuff is why Lucie can't sleep at night.

I am surprised you posted that video of us. Your red singlet looks nice.

[Belsnickel]

(11-05-2015, 07:32 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: 2. As for the article. And your interpretation of my feelings towards them. I personally do not have any issue with them at all. I just don't want their lifestyle pushed upon me. We all live our own lives, but our public lives shouldn't be forced to accept some lifestyle that they have not fully committed to.... The fact that you think I have some anger towards them is hilarious. I have one that I hire to lay tile, dude does fantastic work. Maybe instead of trying to assume what's in my heart just ask me. You can be critical and suspect of people without being anti the person.

I did not say you had anger towards them, I said you ridiculed them. And you have, consistently. I didn't even say you had a problem with them, if you note I said in my original commentary on it that I didn't not know whether it was to get a rise out of someone or whether you had a hard time with it (meaning a hard time navigating the language). Neither of those possibilities point to anger or animosity. I intentionally left that out in order to give you the benefit of the doubt.

[*bfine32*]

(11-05-2015, 06:24 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You may not see it as such, but is does. The goal of the transitioning period is to live your life as the gender you are. Being seen as and using the facilities of that gender is an important part of that. As to conforming part, what conforming is being done by sharing facilities with someone? If we're talking about a bathroom, there is going to be a stall involved in some manner most of the time and so you won't know any different. In a locker room, I'd be willing to bet that most instances you'd never know unless you were staring.


Not during their school years, but someone who identifies as trans and gets support at a young age will often start living their lives as the gender they identify as very young. It makes the transition as an adult that much easier.

I had a class with two women that were both trans. Neither had gone through the surgery at that point. One came from a more supportive and accepting family and the other much the opposite. Both are the same age and have a very similar background as far as when they knew, etc. The young lady that didn't receive the support started things much later and so it was very obvious that she was a trans woman. When her friend revealed herself as trans, every guy in the room shifted in their seat because we had many discussions about her attractiveness. Not a clue among us. The difference was the age at which they started the transitioning process.

It seems to be an ironic argument. "It really doesn't matter who uses which facility, until it matters".

Pretty sure I'd know there's a female in my locker room without staring; unless you suggest they hide themselves or shower clothed or when no one is around. Not sure how that helps with the transformation process.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-05-2015, 07:51 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I did not say you had anger towards them, I said you ridiculed them. And you have, consistently. I didn't even say you had a problem with them, if you note I said in my original commentary on it that I didn't not know whether it was to get a rise out of someone or whether you had a hard time with it (meaning a hard time navigating the language). Neither of those possibilities point to anger or animosity. I intentionally left that out in order to give you the benefit of the doubt.

It is possible to be skeptical of someone and expressing that without worrying about you having the idea that I am ridiculing them.  If you would like to see me ridicule them then that is a whole other deal.  

Obviously you live in a world that doesn't include a lot of traditional type A men.   Some of us live in a blunt world where we don't feel the need to skirt around topics for fear of making someone feel bad.  

As far as language goes.... I gave you all the benefit of the doubt when it came to the use of *****.   But then you all got on me for using transexual, then it was for pronouns.   Then you gave me that list that included some nonsense like 2 wolf or twin spirit or something like that... and then that's where you all lost me.    If it takes a rolling knowledge of accepted words that go from good to bad to good .... Then make up new ones every couple of months.      That's where I am out.   I will use what I use and until there is some sort of standard, I will just be called whatever you all think has any affect on me.  

I don't feel the need to compensate for language on your or anyone else's behalf here....  I tried that once.

[*bfine32*]

(11-05-2015, 07:34 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I am surprised you posted that video of us.   Your red singlet looks nice.

Who are we to judge?

[Rotobeast]

(11-05-2015, 07:34 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I am surprised you posted that video of us.   Your red singlet looks nice.

He looks like a power bottom.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(11-05-2015, 07:34 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I am surprised you posted that video of us.   Your red singlet looks nice.

Stop stalking me with your homoerotic fantasies.  I don't like you like that.  Hell, I don't even like you.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(11-05-2015, 07:51 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I did not say you had anger towards them, I said you ridiculed them.

That's what he does.  In order to have a point, he needs to create a lie which you never wrote then disagree with his own lie.  Classic strawman.

[djs7685]

(11-05-2015, 08:48 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: As far as language goes.... I gave you all the benefit of the doubt when it came to the use of *****.   But then you all got on me for using transexual, then it was for pronouns.   Then you gave me that list that included some nonsense like 2 wolf or twin spirit or something like that... and then that's where you all lost me.    If it takes a rolling knowledge of accepted words that go from good to bad to good .... Then make up new ones every couple of months.      That's where I am out.   I will use what I use and until there is some sort of standard, I will just be called whatever you all think has any affect on me.  

I don't feel the need to compensate for language on your or anyone else's behalf here....  I tried that once.

Slurs are slurs. You can't pretend they don't mean anything just because you're a straight, white, male that doesn't care about anything but your own little bubble of discrimination.

You better feel the need to cut back on the slurs, it's just flat out not acceptable on here, per the new rules. You may play dumb, but I highly doubt you're actually stupid enough to not realize when you're using a specific word that is obviously a problem. Stop playing stupid. I hope I'm not giving you too much credit, I'm trying to be nice about this.