High-speed police chases have killed thousands of innocent bystanders

[GMDino]

http://www.usatoday.com/longform/news/2015/07/30/police-pursuits-fatal-injuries/30187827/

Quote:Some police say drivers who flee are suspicious, and chasing them maintains law and order. "When crooks think they can do whatever they choose, that will just fester and foster more crimes," said Milwaukee Police Detective Michael Crivello, who is president of the city's police union.

Many in law enforcement, including the Justice Department, have recognized the danger of high-speed chases and urge officers to avoid or abort pursuits that endanger pedestrians, nearby motorists or themselves. At least 139 police have been killed in chases, federal records show.

"A pursuit is probably the most unique and dangerous job law enforcement can do," said Tulsa Police Maj. Travis Yates, who runs a national pursuit-training academy.

The Justice Department called pursuits "the most dangerous of all ordinary police activities" in 1990 and urged police departments to adopt policies listing exactly when officers can and cannot pursue someone. "Far more police vehicle chases occur each year than police shootings," the department said.




Police chases have killed nearly as many people as justifiable police shootings, according to government figures, which are widely thought to under count fatal shootings. Yet chases have escaped the national attention paid to other potentially lethal police tactics.

Despite the Justice Department's warning, the number of chase-related deaths in 2013 was higher than the number in 1990 — 322 compared to 317, according to records of the Department of Transportation's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), which analyzes all fatal motor-vehicle crashes.

Many police departments still let officers make on-the-spot judgments about whether to chase based on their perception of a driver's danger to the public. Officers continue to violate pursuit policies concerning when to avoid or stop a chase, police records show. And federally funded high-tech systems that would obviate chases, such as vehicle tracking devices, are undeveloped or rarely used due to cost.

While cities such as Milwaukee and Orlando allow chases only of suspected violent felons, many departments let officers chase anyone if they decide the risk of letting someone go free outweighs the risk of a pursuit.


At least 11,506 people, including 6,300 fleeing suspects, were killed in police chases from 1979 through 2013, most recent year for which NHTSA records are available. That's an average of 329 a year — nearly one person a day.

But those figures likely understate the actual death toll because NHTSA uses police reports to determine if a crash was chase-related, and some reports do not disclose that a chase occurred.

Kansas, Michigan and Minnesota state records all show more chase-related deaths than NHTSA shows for those states.

"It's an embarrassment," said Geoffrey Alpert of the University of South Carolina, a leading researcher on police pursuits who has done numerous Justice Department studies. NHTSA records "are the only national database we have on these fatalities, and it's been consistently wrong."

The number of innocent bystanders killed is impossible to pinpoint because hundreds of NHTSA's records fail to show whether a victim was killed in a car fleeing police or in a car that happened to be hit during a chase.

Analyzing each fatal crash, USA TODAY determined that at least 2,456 bystanders were killed, although the death toll could be as high as 2,750. The newspaper found that 55% of those killed were drivers fleeing police. They ranged from armed-robbery suspects to a 10-year-old boy chased as he drove a pick-up truck 85 mph on a county road before hitting a tree, killing himself and his 7-year-old passenger.

Injuries are even harder to count because NHTSA keeps records of only fatal crashes.

More at the link.

[JustWinBaby]

(09-12-2015, 07:14 PM)GMDino Wrote: http://www.usatoday.com/longform/news/2015/07/30/police-pursuits-fatal-injuries/30187827/
Yet chases have escaped the national attention paid to other potentially lethal police tactics.

That's because it's much more difficult to race-bait with a car chase.

But there's enough tech now, between dashboard cams and red light cameras and so on, that I see few reasons to chase anyone.  A known violent felon or a stolen vehicle are about the only reasons I'd give chase.

I'd guess like 90% of the time, with the plate and photo proof of who was driving, you can easily track these people down and arrest them on a bunch of charges.  I don't know what the penalty is for fleeing in a vehicle, but you might have to really stiffen those penalties   A person with illegal guns or drugs is still going to have incentive to flee, but it really shouldn't make a difference once you get them if the penalty for fleeing is severe enough (especially for someone with a record).

[Devils Advocate]

Technology will make these chases obsolete in the very near future.

[6andcounting]

Some police departments are starting to use a bazooka that shoots a gps to the back of a fleeing car.

[JustWinBaby]

This did get quite a bit of coverage 15-20 years ago, and a lot of police forces changed their procedures.

[Rotobeast]

(09-12-2015, 07:56 PM)6andcounting Wrote: Some police departments are starting to use a bazooka that shoots a gps to the back of a fleeing car.

They are also supposed to be able to fire a module that can completely short out the vehicle's electrical system.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Before I comment further I'd like to ask, what is the point of this thread?

[Benton]

(09-12-2015, 09:09 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: This did get quite a bit of coverage 15-20 years ago, and a lot of police forces changed their procedures.

Agreed. This was an issue. Most departments or municipalities realized it, addressed it.

[Belsnickel]

I don't know much about the specific rules for police in a chase, but I know in my EVOC training it was made clear that while running hot we could exceed the speed limit, but not get to the point of reckless. In Virginia that means 20 over the limit or 80 mph, whichever is lower. Always seemed like a good rule, which is why it was codified for us. Our medic chase cars were police interceptor Crown Vics and I know that hitting 120 in one on a straight, open highway can still leave one feeling a little less in control than is comfortable to me, anyway.

Anyway, whenever I think of these chases going awry I think back to my medic days where we had the only such incident in this area that I can ever remember. It wasn't a pedestrian that got hit, or another driver. The officer crested the top of a hill too fast and ended up inside of a second story apartment's living room. I was an extrication tech and can say that I never expected to work a scene like that one.

[GMDino]

(09-12-2015, 11:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Before I comment further I'd like to ask, what is the point of this thread?

That they did a study and found a lot of innocent people die due to high speed chases.  Many of which are for minor violations that caused the police to have cause to think there might be something nefarious going on apparently.

Quite frankly I didn't think the total death toll would be as high as it is let alone for bystanders.

That's all.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-13-2015, 12:49 AM)GMDino Wrote: That they did a study and found a lot of innocent people die due to high speed chases.  Many of which are for minor violations that caused the police to have cause to think there might be something nefarious going on apparently.

Quite frankly I didn't think the total death toll would be as high as it is let alone for bystanders.

That's all.

Now the question becomes what is your solution to this problem?  Let people who drive fast enough escape police apprehension or continue as is?  Another question would be is  around 600 deaths a year in a nation of 300+ million worse than letting criminals go if they drive really fast?

[JustWinBaby]

(09-13-2015, 02:21 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Now the question becomes what is your solution to this problem?  Let people who drive fast enough escape police apprehension or continue as is?  Another question would be is  around 600 deaths a year in a nation of 300+ million worse than letting criminals go if they drive really fast?

Irrelevant questions in a society that wants to blame cops rather than the POS criminals for the deaths.

[Blutarsky]

(09-12-2015, 11:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Before I comment further I'd like to ask, what is the point of this thread?

That cops can't do anything right.

[GMDino]

(09-13-2015, 02:21 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Now the question becomes what is your solution to this problem?  Let people who drive fast enough escape police apprehension or continue as is?  Another question would be is  around 600 deaths a year in a nation of 300+ million worse than letting criminals go if they drive really fast?

Your question begs this question:  Would those people drive at high speeds if the cops weren't trying to pull them over for failure to use a turn signal?  Or a headlight out? Or any other of the myriad of minor offense that resulted in people getting killed due to a high speed chase?

You're focusing on the chase.  I'm curious about the rules an regulations for the chase.  Is it worth it to kill 600 people a year?  Is it worth it to kill one person a year?

Over a expired tag?

Or are the police using such minor infractions as "reasonable cause" to search people and hope they get luck and find something more?

[GMDino]

(09-13-2015, 08:30 AM)Blutarsky Wrote: That cops can't do anything right.

Or the cops are being told to do things that will put innocent people in jeopardy.

[GMDino]

(09-13-2015, 02:39 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Irrelevant questions in a society that wants to blame cops rather than the POS criminals for the deaths.

Yes.  Those POS criminals who went through a traffic light a second late...or didn't use their turn signal correctly.

We must hunt them down!

And if a few innocent people get killed?  Well, that the price of doing business, ain't it?



Maybe if the police force wasn't being used as a revenue stream (as is seen by a lot of citizens) but rather an actual force looking out for our good people wouldn't fear them enough to run?

Of course there will always be those who run...but hoping that the guy witht he broken tail-light is also a heroin dealer so they chase him at high speeds doesn't seen like a good risk / reward ratio to me.

[Rotobeast]

(09-13-2015, 11:12 AM)GMDino Wrote: Yes.  Those POS criminals who went through a traffic light a second late...or didn't use their turn signal correctly.

We must hunt them down!

And if a few innocent people get killed?  Well, that the price of doing business, ain't it?



Maybe if the police force wasn't being used as a revenue stream (as is seen by a lot of citizens) but rather an actual force looking out for our good people wouldn't fear them enough to run?

Of course there will always be those who run...but hoping that the guy witht he broken tail-light is also a heroin dealer so they chase him at high speeds doesn't seen like a good risk / reward ratio to me.

They chase because they run, not because of an initial infraction like a taillight.

You all know what is going to happen with everyone continuing to complain about cops, right ?
There will be cameras EVERYWHERE and they will break down your door, after getting video on you.
You think there's a revenue stream now.....lol

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-13-2015, 11:10 AM)GMDino Wrote: Your question begs this question:  Would those people drive at high speeds if the cops weren't trying to pull them over for failure to use a turn signal?  Or a headlight out? Or any other of the myriad of minor offense that resulted in people getting killed due to a high speed chase?

You're focusing on the chase.  I'm curious about the rules an regulations for the chase.  Is it worth it to kill 600 people a year?  Is it worth it to kill one person a year?

Over a expired tag?

Or are the police using such minor infractions as "reasonable cause" to search people and hope they get luck and find something more?

This might be both the dumbest post you've ever made.  The initial reason for the stop can become completely irrelevant the minute someone decides to flee.  They may be fleeing for something as innocuous as an expired driver's license or it may be a criminal wanted on multiple felonies.  It's impossible to discern why someone is fleeing you, the mere fact that they are is cause to ensure they are stopped.  You're last sentence is so far off topic as to not even warrant discussion in this thread.

Lastly, what you're essentially advocating is for the United States to be a country in which all a criminal has to do to evade the police and possible arrest is to just drive really fast.  Like I said in the beginning, as dumb a post as you've ever made and then some.

[GMDino]

(09-13-2015, 12:33 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan='60937 Wrote:This might be both the dumbest post you've ever made.  The initial reason for the stop can become completely irrelevant the minute someone decides to flee.  They may be fleeing for something as innocuous as an expired driver's license or  it may be a criminal wanted on multiple felonies. It's impossible to discern why someone is fleeing you, the mere fact that they are is cause to ensure they are stopped.  You're last sentence is so far off topic as to not even warrant discussion in this thread.

Sociopathicsteelerfan='60937'='1442158394 Wrote:Lastly, what you're essentially advocating is for the United States to be a country in which all a criminal has to do to evade the police and possible arrest is to just drive really fast.  Like I said in the beginning, as dumb a post as you've ever made and then some.

Do you think for a split second I thought you'd ever agree that anything the police do, even if its chasing a guy who may or may not have misused his turn signal, at a high speed, resulting in the death of someone?

The one point I brought up (that you think is useless) was: "hoping that the guy with the broken tail-light is also a heroin dealer so they chase him at high speeds doesn't seen like a good risk / reward ratio to me."  And yet you said in your own response they have no way to know so they better chase just in case.

You think high speed chases are good and necessary.  No big surprise there.  I wonder if there's some way to limit them and avoid killing innocent people because of them.  So naturally you are against it.

Read the article rather than just jumping on the "you hate cops" meme.

[GMDino]

(09-13-2015, 11:42 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: They chase because they run, not because of an initial infraction  like a taillight.

You all know what is going to happen with everyone continuing to complain about cops, right ?
There will be cameras EVERYWHERE and they will break down your door, after getting video on you.
You think there's a revenue stream now.....lol

And....is it worth chasing the guy with the broken taillight?  You have their plate number, its at best a warning to get it fixed (unless you didn't make your quote yet) so do you suddenly create a dangerous situation or do you note it and send a letter?