Higher Education Act Renewal

[Belsnickel]

So I get emails with industry headlines all of the time and of course one big topic since we are currently in a situation where the act will expire soon since the continuances (or whatever they are called) run out at the end of the fiscal year.

Congress has been looking at ways at cutting college costs as well as other ways to make things more affordable for students. Streamlining Title IV funding (Federal Student Aid such as Stafford/Direct Student Loans, Perkins Loans, Pell Grants, FSEOG, etc.) has also been a big topic as many of my peers across the country are trying to save the Perkins program (I am not one of them, let it die). Anyway, I know this has been a topic of discussion around these parts. Higher education spending, the DoE, all sorts of that fun stuff. So I figured I'd start a thread and put up things I come across in relation to it on the off chance anyone is interested. I know we have members that are in various stages of their life, including either getting ready to go to college, in college, or with children in the same boat.

[Belsnickel]

The one that caught my eye today was from the Idaho Statesman.

Quote: WASHINGTON — As college costs continue to climb, Congress is taking a fresh look at federal financial aid and considering ways to stop states from driving up tuition at their public universities.

Noting that more comprehensive financial aid policies will be useless if costs continue to skyrocket, higher education experts urged lawmakers Wednesday to hold states accountable for funding public colleges and universities.

“Now’s the time that we do need federal leverage to make sure that states do not abandon their responsibility for higher education,” F. King Alexander, president and chancellor of Louisiana State University, told the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee.

In a hearing on the reauthorization of the Higher Education Act, Alexander described declining state funding as “the greatest challenge facing higher education today.”

Funding for higher education routinely has been slashed from state budgets over the past two decades, with cuts growing deeper in the years since the Great Recession. Public universities have increased tuition in response.

The article goes on for a bit, but this caught my eye more than anything.

Quote:What Congress can do to reverse the trend is unclear. Ideas suggested at the hearing included incentivizing states to increase their funding, creating a floor for higher education spending that states must stay above, and freeing up funds for higher education by cutting states’ spending requirements in other areas.

There appeared to be at least some bipartisan agreement that the issue has reached a point where federal action was needed.

“I’m against states being mandated . . . but it appears unless states are mandated to do something, they’re not going to do something,” said Sen. Bill Cassidy, R-La.

“I’m totally on board with the idea that we should look at higher education funding in somewhat of the same way we look at transportation funding, whereby we require a minimum state contribution,” said Sen. Chris Murphy, D-Conn. “It just seems like we should expect something from the state government other than cuts after cuts after cuts.”

[*michaelsean*]

I don't have a real big problem with my daughter's tuition at Ohio State. It's like $10,000. Don't get me strted on the cost to live on campus though. What a racket. She will be in an apartment this year. as a sophomore, she qualifies for a $6500 subsidized loan. She doesn't qualify for any other kind of aid. We pick up the rest with an unsubsidized loan which will include enough to pay for her apartment.

[Belsnickel]

(06-05-2015, 10:44 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I don't have a real big problem with my daughter's tuition at Ohio State.  It's like $10,000.  Don't get me strted on the cost to live on campus though.  What a racket.  She will be in an apartment this year.  as a sophomore, she qualifies for a $6500 subsidized loan.  She doesn't qualify for any other kind of aid.  We pick up the rest with an unsubsidized loan which will include enough to pay for her apartment.

Yeah, the tuition there isn't too bad. The further north you go the higher the rates typically get. Ohio has some other issues with regards to college tuition though. There have been a decreasing number of Ohio residents graduating and attending Ohio public universities. Because of this, they have been offering resident rates to non-residents of Ohio in an attempt to pull them in. This could cause a moderate increase in resident rates at Ohio universities in the coming year as the money brought in at the non-resident rates is what helps make up the budget, but we shall see.

I did notice their room and board rate was high, though. It's got us beat by about $3k for the year, but tuition is roughly the same.

[JustWinBaby]

Start by attaching strings that cap administrative and capital (buildings) costs...we don't need to subsidize high-end condo-style student dorms and water parks along with a bureaucratic administration that would make the government blush.

[StLucieBengal]

(06-05-2015, 03:26 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Start by attaching strings that cap administrative and capital (buildings) costs...we don't need to subsidize high-end condo-style student dorms and water parks along with a bureaucratic administration that would make the government blush.

Agreed.   

Not backing loans would curtail costs.   College's would be forced to drop rates and then budgets would come into balance.  

[JustWinBaby]

(06-05-2015, 04:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Agreed.   

Not backing loans would curtail costs.   College's would be forced to drop rates and then budgets would come into balance.  

It's econ 101....if you want more of something, you subsidize it.  Been a while, but I remember a few studies that showed the benefits of cheap, available loans went to the banks and the universities.  Liberals keep pumping the fist for students, but the students simply don't get those benefits.  But in the liberal world reality doesn't matter (blame the rich!).

[Belsnickel]

My argument has been that things cost more now, taxpayers don't want to be funding something like this all the time so the states have decreased their budgets for it, so why shouldn't tuition and all of that increase? Do we really need all of these kids in college that are there? I say this as someone whose job depends on this sort of thing, but there are a lot of students that have no business in college.

The other side of that is how much of the tuition is the mandatory fees charged by the university? These fees are often lumped into that line and are appropriated to the auxiliary services of the university. Things like a health center and parking are understandable concerns, but the students subsidize the intercollegiate athletics programs with their fees as well. These programs should be self supporting, not receiving any funds from tuition, IMHO. Yet a sizable chunk in many schools goes towards these things.

[*michaelsean*]

As much as Ohio State makes in football they better not be tacking anything on to tuition.

[Belsnickel]

(06-06-2015, 08:10 PM)michaelsean Wrote: As much as Ohio State makes in football they better not be tacking anything on to tuition.

Yeah, OSU brings in a good amount. It is one of roughly 20 NCAA programs in the country that actually turns a profit. Typically between $30-40 Million. The rest have to rely on student activity fees to help make up a difference.

Side note, with that much profit one has to wonder why the bother with the D-Tix program and charge the students for tickets at all.

[*michaelsean*]

'cause they can.

[JustWinBaby]

(06-06-2015, 07:58 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: My argument has been that things cost more now, taxpayers don't want to be funding something like this all the time so the states have decreased their budgets for it, so why shouldn't tuition and all of that increase? Do we really need all of these kids in college that are there? I say this as someone whose job depends on this sort of thing, but there are a lot of students that have no business in college.

The whole system is pretty messed up.  Companies don't want to train people any more, and a college degree has become a lazy way to filter for many jobs that don't need it.  I don't think we do nearly enough to direct people to trade schools that are a much better fit.

College experience aside, which has some real social and maturity benefits, there are very few non-technical jobs that actually benefit from a college degree.  A business degree will teach you the basics, but very little about actually running a successful business.  And the irony is some of the most elite companies/jobs prefer non-business majors and actually - GASP! - run training classes to teach their new hires.

1-2 years of business classes is all most people would need, and the company and student could split that savings.  IMO, the vast majority of electives and non-major requirements that round-out a 4-year degree are almost completely useless.  There are so many books and free materials/groups where people can enrich themselves, if they choose, that it's almost criminal to have to fork over thousands of dollars to a university for what's usually an inferior experience.

That said, I think math and econ are among the best courses for teaching logic and critical thinking.  But even most business majors try to avoid them like the plague.

[SunsetBengal]

(06-05-2015, 11:27 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, the tuition there isn't too bad. The further north you go the higher the rates typically get. Ohio has some other issues with regards to college tuition though. There have been a decreasing number of Ohio residents graduating and attending Ohio public universities. Because of this, they have been offering resident rates to non-residents of Ohio in an attempt to pull them in. This could cause a moderate increase in resident rates at Ohio universities in the coming year as the money brought in at the non-resident rates is what helps make up the budget, but we shall see.

I did notice their room and board rate was high, though. It's got us beat by about $3k for the year, but tuition is roughly the same.

Question in regard to bolded part;  Is this just in Ohio, or are attendance rates at Universities dropping at a similar rate Nationwide?

[Belsnickel]

(06-06-2015, 10:25 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Question in regard to bolded part;  Is this just in Ohio, or are attendance rates at Universities dropping at a similar rate Nationwide?

I'm not sure what the trend is like nationwide. The reason I know about it occurring in Ohio is from a meeting I've had with other administrators at my school discussing a SWOT. What is happening in Ohio is a threat for us because they are targeting NJ and NY students (a big recruiting ground for our out of state students) and even into NOVA.

I know for us we are experiencing a lower number of applications, but we have still been able to increase enrollment each time we've looked to.

[Belsnickel]

(06-06-2015, 10:02 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: The whole system is pretty messed up.  Companies don't want to train people any more, and a college degree has become a lazy way to filter for many jobs that don't need it.  I don't think we do nearly enough to direct people to trade schools that are a much better fit.

College experience aside, which has some real social and maturity benefits, there are very few non-technical jobs that actually benefit from a college degree.  A business degree will teach you the basics, but very little about actually running a successful business.  And the irony is some of the most elite companies/jobs prefer non-business majors and actually - GASP! - run training classes to teach their new hires.

1-2 years of business classes is all most people would need, and the company and student could split that savings.  IMO, the vast majority of electives and non-major requirements that round-out a 4-year degree are almost completely useless.  There are so many books and free materials/groups where people can enrich themselves, if they choose, that it's almost criminal to have to fork over thousands of dollars to a university for what's usually an inferior experience.

That said, I think math and econ are among the best courses for teaching logic and critical thinking.  But even most business majors try to avoid them like the plague.

This is one of those arguments I tend to have with my wife on a regular basis. She has her undergrad and grad degrees in English and so is more humanities focused. Me with my accounting degree and currently working on courses in public administration, I am more focused on the practical. Because of my degree being from a business school I lack all of the gen eds for the school I work at. So I have to take them all and I complain every chance I get. My wife talks about the "well rounded citizen" and all of that, but I think it's just ridiculous.

But I could just be a little bitter due to the snobbery of higher education seeing my degree as meaningless if I want to do graduate work, but I can work for them as an accountant and be a licensed CPA just fine. :snark:

[JustWinBaby]

(06-06-2015, 10:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is one of those arguments I tend to have with my wife on a regular basis. She has her undergrad and grad degrees in English and so is more humanities focused. Me with my accounting degree and currently working on courses in public administration, I am more focused on the practical. Because of my degree being from a business school I lack all of the gen eds for the school I work at. So I have to take them all and I complain every chance I get. My wife talks about the "well rounded citizen" and all of that, but I think it's just ridiculous.

But I could just be a little bitter due to the snobbery of higher education seeing my degree as meaningless if I want to do graduate work, but I can work for them as an accountant and be a licensed CPA just fine. :snark:

Just think of it as job security for people with degrees in English, like your wife

It's sort of like a private sector professional teaching high school or college courses, perhaps even younger.  It seems like some education courses would be beneficial and common sense...yet we turn out tons of crappy teachers and plenty of professionals have all the necessary skills to command a classroom.

Look at job postings and you'll see the same sort of thing.  A laundry list of requirements even few experienced professionals in that function have but are more than capable of doing, or learning, any of the boxes they don't check.  People give that laundry list to clueless HR departments and then wonder why HR gives them such a mediocre list of candidates.

I'm drifting off-topic, but the business undergrad is kind of a funny thing.  It seems like a very safe and practical choice, but now that you often need an MBA to get ahead and improve your marketability you have to ask what the value in a business undergrad really is.  I think I could consolidate the entirety of the useful undergrad courses I had into maybe 8-10 classes.  And if you really scraped away all the fat, I bet you could get it down to one intense semester.  Maybe combine with 3-4 full-time internships and make it full 1-yr program.  Would be a monster success if you could attract even your average state school student.

[SunsetBengal]

(06-06-2015, 10:42 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm not sure what the trend is like nationwide. The reason I know about it occurring in Ohio is from a meeting I've had with other administrators at my school discussing a SWOT. What is happening in Ohio is a threat for us because they are targeting NJ and NY students (a big recruiting ground for our out of state students) and even into NOVA.

I know for us we are experiencing a lower number of applications, but we have still been able to increase enrollment each time we've looked to.

The reason I asked is because with the high cost of a traditional four year degree getting ever higher, perhaps many young folks are electing to not start out life with all of that student loan debt.  Could it also be that many of those same folks are opting for education/vocational training that is more specific to a particular career path, without all of the extraneous classes that go into attaining a four year degree? 

[Belsnickel]

(06-07-2015, 09:34 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The reason I asked is because with the high cost of a traditional four year degree getting ever higher, perhaps many young folks are electing to not start out life with all of that student loan debt.  Could it also be that many of those same folks are opting for education/vocational training that is more specific to a particular career path, without all of the extraneous classes that go into attaining a four year degree? 

From what I have seen, enrollment is still on the rise. The last trends report I saw showed a still increasing rise in enrollment for public and private institutions. We seem to be seeing a higher percentage of part time students at public two-year institutions which shows people entering the workforce and taking classes concurrently.

I'll see if I can do some digging to see some more recent numbers, but as of 2010 every state was seeing increased enrollment, except for Maine.

[JustWinBaby]

(06-07-2015, 10:36 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: We seem to be seeing a higher percentage of part time students at public two-year institutions which shows people entering the workforce and taking classes concurrently.

It makes a lot of sense if you can transfer credits to start out at a local community college or associate program.  Would make even more sense if employers weren't so hung-up on 4-yr degrees (and if they weren't the starting pay would equalize more making the decision even more economical).  But transferring to a 4-yr program is a very prudent fiscal decision.

[StLucieBengal]

(06-07-2015, 10:36 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: From what I have seen, enrollment is still on the rise. The last trends report I saw showed a still increasing rise in enrollment for public and private institutions. We seem to be seeing a higher percentage of part time students at public two-year institutions which shows people entering the workforce and taking classes concurrently.

I'll see if I can do some digging to see some more recent numbers, but as of 2010 every state was seeing increased enrollment, except for Maine.

Because the myth of you have to have a College degree Is repeated like chant. Plus regulation has made it nearly impossible for a young person to start a business in many fields without a sizeable financial commitment just to fulfill the bs requirements.