"Hillbilly Elegy"

[*PhilHos*]

(09-23-2020, 12:22 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Good to know you're willing to stereotype.

Well he IS a Democrat/leftist/liberal. 

[BmorePat87]

(09-23-2020, 12:22 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Good to know you're willing to stereotype.


Were your Virginian ancestors Scots/Irish or German? Being that the northern part was more German and the southern part more Scots/Irish, I'm guessing German but it could go either way. There is a dividing line in the Shenandoah Valley which is the border between Augusta and Rockingham counties.

Mostly Scots-Irish and some distant English way back (there's a family name "Jarman" from Kent, England became "German" after a generation in Virginia). Not sure if they became Catholic when they moved to MD in the 1910's or if there were some Irish Catholics in the lineage along with the Protestant Scots-Irish.

My grandmother's maiden name is the line that's most interesting. Everyone with this last name originates from one man without any parents. Family story was he was either found abandoned by the shore or on a boat and given his last name based on that. But after some time in Chester, PA, he went to Fauquier County and they stayed there for nearly 200 years, so that follows the traditional path of a Scots-Irish settler at the time.

[*michaelsean*]

Them hillbillies get awful sensitive. We've all seen enough Andy Griffith, Justified, and The Waltons.

[fredtoast]

(09-23-2020, 12:22 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Good to know you're willing to stereotype.

It is not only good, it is necessary.  You can't analyze and try to address the problems facing any group with out acknowledging qualities that define the behavior and/or culture of that group.

There is nothing wrong with stereotypes (if they are true) as long as you don't use them to judge individuals.

[Belsnickel]

(09-23-2020, 04:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is not only good, it is necessary.  You can't analyze and try to address the problems facing any group with out acknowledging qualities that define the behavior and/or culture of that group.

There is nothing wrong with stereotypes (if they are true) as long as you don't use them to judge individuals.

That is literally what stereotyping is, though. When you stereotype people you are placing a judgement upon people. When you utilize a stereotype, you have a prejudice towards an individual from the group for which that stereotype is held, an incorrect one in this case, I might add.

[fredtoast]

(09-23-2020, 05:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: That is literally what stereotyping is, though. When you stereotype people you are placing a judgement upon people. When you utilize a stereotype, you have a prejudice towards an individual from the group for which that stereotype is held, an incorrect one in this case, I might add.

This is not true at all.  I guess you are trying to argue semantics, but I clearly never judged any individual by the stereotypical behavior of hillbillies.

How can you address problems facing certain groups of people if you can't acknowledge that they even exist.

And it is correct to say that insularity is a common problem with the hillbilly community just like out-of-wedlock births are a problem with the black community.  I was raised by hillbillies.  I still live in the middle of hillbilly country.  I know what I am talking about.  They have a strong distrust of "outsiders" and their ways.  But I don't assume every person I meet in this area is insular and I don't assume every black woman I meet has multiple children from multiple fathers.

Some stereotypes are true, but I don't apply them on an individual level.

It does no one any good to stick your head in the sand and claim that there are no issues that are more common among certain groups of people.  You have to admit the problems exist before you can try to address them.

[Belsnickel]

(09-23-2020, 05:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is not true at all.  I guess you are trying to argue semantics, but I clearly never judged any individual by the stereotypical behavior of hillbillies.

How can you address problems facing certain groups of people if you can't acknowledge that they even exist.

And it is correct to say that insularity is a common problem with the hillbilly community just like out-of-wedlock births are a problem with the black community.  I was raised by hillbillies.  I still live in the middle of hillbilly country.  I know what I am talking about.  They have a strong distrust of "outsiders" and their ways.  But I don't assume every person I meet in this area is insular and I don't assume every black woman I meet has multiple children from multiple fathers.

Some stereotypes are true, but I don't apply them on an individual level.

It does no one any good to stick your head in the sand and claim that there are no issues that are more common among certain groups of people.  You have to admit the problems exist before you can try to address them.

I wasn't referring to the insularity, but rather your dismissal of the idea of the people in this region being hard working.

[Millhouse]

(09-22-2020, 05:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: One of the biggest points he makes is about poverty is that people who are raised surrounded by poverty often don't see any way out.  they think getting rich is for "other people".  He talks about how poor people need to be exposed to some people who have succeeded just so they can see that it is possible.  And not just driven through a rich neighborhood.  they need to know these people on a personal basis so that they can actually identify with them.  This was one of the goals of the program that led to Trump accusing Biden of "destroying the suburbs".  It is important to have government housing somewhere other than just in the absolute poorest conditions.  When the only people children ever know are poor losers then they obviously identify as a member of that group.  Instead they need to be around middle class families and be exposed to a normal way of life.

My best friend growing up in elemntary and middle school was black, and lived in subsidized housing out here in a burb of Cincy. He had no father or dad that he knew of and 4 siblings. It was/is mainly a white suburban area with mostly middle to working class people. The housing he grew up in was from some program or something that relocated people from the poorer urban areas of Cincinnati to move them out to a literal opposite area in almost every way possible.

My friend got to go to a ton of places he wouldnt have otherwise, as my Dad took us on day trips out of the city to places like Serpant Mound, Big Bone Lick over in KY which we always laughed about, Air Force Museum up in Dayton, things like that. And this was back in the 1980s, so it wasnt exactly a common thing looking back, but I think it worked out for him at least. He has a good job now, kids, married. He never did go to college, but doing good for himself.

At least for him, he had a chance for a better overall standard of life and it worked out in the end. 

[Belsnickel]

This video just cropped up for me:

[Dill]

(10-26-2020, 12:17 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This video just cropped up for me:

LOL I like Dolly Parton too. The older songs.

[fredtoast]

(09-23-2020, 07:56 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I wasn't referring to the insularity, but rather your dismissal of the idea of the people in this region being hard working.

They are not hard working.  This area used to be supported by growing tobacco.  That is very labor intensive.  It has mostly been phased out now but when people were still growing it they were unable to find local help to hire for the field work.  Despite this being one of the poorest most poverty stricken areas in the country people would not work.  The local farmers had to depend on Mexican migrant workers to harvest the tobacco.  And it was not because they Mexicans did it for peanuts.  The growers paid them well.  They just could not find locals willing to do the work at any price.

[Belsnickel]

(10-27-2020, 12:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They are not hard working.  This area used to be supported by growing tobacco.  That is very labor intensive.  It has mostly been phased out now but when people were still growing it they were unable to find local help to hire for the field work.  Despite this being one of the poorest most poverty stricken areas in the country people would not work.  The local farmers had to depend on Mexican migrant workers to harvest the tobacco.  And it was not because they Mexicans did it for peanuts.  The growers paid them well.  They just could not find locals willing to do the work at any price.

So, you're using a small subset of an entire region to make a generalization about the people of the region as a whole. If only there was a word for that...

[fredtoast]

(10-27-2020, 12:27 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, you're using a small subset of an entire region to make a generalization about the people of the region as a whole. If only there was a word for that...

Yeah, right, there are only Mexican migrant worker in a "small subset" of Appalachia.

[Belsnickel]

(10-27-2020, 01:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah, right, there are only Mexican migrant worker in a "small subset" of Appalachia.

Oh, pobrecito. I know it's tough being called out for negative stereotyping in this way. You can join Vance in kicking rocks, though. Your anecdotal and limited evidence that is inappropriately being applied to a whole region is on par with his, and deserves the same derision. You probably even say the word wrong like he does.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-26-2020, 12:17 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This video just cropped up for me:

I wasn't crazy about that video.  First, Appalachia is a region with ill defined borders.  Although I chuckled at the idea Middletown, Ohio was a part of Appalachia, southwestern Ohio is part of Appalachia, she should reference her own map.  While southern Georgia definitely isn't part of Appalachia.   Again she should refer to her own map.  But, then the map is just a loose guide because Appalachia doesn't have definitive boundaries.

I understand the depiction of some of the people in Hillbilly Elegy is unflattering so some want to distance themselves from it.  But, my wife, my daughter, and myself found it hilarious considering how similar it was to my upbringing.  It was more of a parody than a political commentary to us.

The host of that podcast didn't like how Hillbilly Elegy was purported to speak for an entire region, but her book recommendations were mostly from "marginalized" voices from the fringes of Appalachian society that are nowhere near mainstream Appalachia and would most likely be persecuted or at the very least shunned by the majority.  The majority of those books don't speak for Appalachia either.

[*michaelsean*]

Well looks like the movie is out. I’m looking forward to seeing it. Maybe buy the book afterwards. Only other times I did that was “Silence of the Lambs” and “Got be With the Wind” and in both instances those were the best movies versus books I’ve encountered. There’s a fair amount missing in the GWTW movie versus the book, but the movie is true to the book.

[fredtoast]

(10-27-2020, 03:40 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The host of that podcast didn't like how Hillbilly Elegy was purported to speak for an entire region, but her book recommendations were mostly from "marginalized" voices from the fringes of Appalachian society that are nowhere near mainstream Appalachia and would most likely be persecuted or at the very least shunned by the majority.  The majority of those books don't speak for Appalachia either.

I was about to make this exact same point.

I get that Vance's specific family was an extreme example regarding alcoholism and dysfunction, but the over arching themes he makes about the problems facing people in those regions are correct.

[*michaelsean*]

I did watch it. It was good but not what I was thinking it would be. I thought it would be more of hillbillies in their element. Maybe more story telling about the history of the family? It it was true to the book, then I don’t know how hillbillies would be upset as it really only focused on three living generations of one family. Had he given it a different title I don’t know that there would be a connection to hill people in general. Just a few generations of a family that comes from Appalachia. I guess I thought it would be something like the first fifteen minutes of the movie.

And maybe I’d hate it if I lived it, but the first fifteen minutes of the movie looks like I would have loved growing up in that part of KY.