Hobsons choice: no need to invest more in the offensive line?

[*jason*]

I don't remember the last time I went to Bengals.com.

Shit like this is why...

[SunsetBengal]

(02-07-2020, 09:17 AM)Au165 Wrote: I mentioned this in the draft thread, I don't think the team sees the issues the same way we do. The big reason is Williams will fix the LT issue and Fred Johnson played well enough to get a shot at RT at the end of the year. Hopkins is the guy at Center and Miller was average but I think they will stay with him another year based on his contract. That really just leaves LG open and I believe they see Jordan as getting better throughout the year. I know the PFF grades by the way, just saying O line is a place coaches all over the league and PFF often disagree. Now say Lewis from LSU is there to start day 3 I don't think that precludes them from using a mid round pick on a value at guard ( or similarly tackle), however I don't think it'll be big assets.

Agreed, I'm also not shocked that the team is "leaking" their lack of intent to invest heavily in OL free agents, through Hobson as their paid spokesman.  The OL did seem to settle in, during the back half of the season.  Fred Johnson does look like an interesting prospect, a fortunate addition to the team.  I don't have much hope for Isaiah Prince to turn into anything special, he was a poor protector and penalty machine in college.  With Hopkins settling in at Center, Jonah to emerge at LT, I think that they are counting on Mike Jordan to take a big step forward at LG.  You seem to think that they will stand pat with MIller at RG, if nothing else just for the sake of continuity.  

Now, if they suddenly move Andy and Cordy Glenn, that would free up around $27M that they would have to spend, somewhere.  If Hobson is saying look for improvements on Defense, we might be able to count on the Bengals being players in the LB market.  

[leonardfan40]

(02-07-2020, 01:25 PM)Schmitbuck Wrote: Pretty sure the birth dates listed on ESPN and the team site for Geno & Dunlap are real. 

My job is in the accounting field. Over the years, I've spent a lot of Octobers & Novembers forecasting and creating budgets for the upcoming year. And if my team misses/ignores certain variables, it makes for some not so fun conversations when the books close each month. 

My point is that good organizations will take into account things like players declining with age. Perhaps Geno & Dunlap don't drop-off in 2020, but they can't kick the can much longer.

Some of my favorite drafts were when the Bengals were a playoff team and could draft BPA and plan ahead for expiring contracts/guys retiring. I hope they're back to doing that soon. 

Sounds good in theory, but that’s not actually what good organizations do. Take the Ogbuhei draft. We had a very good, playoff team, arguably a couple of pieces away from winning a playoff game and maybe competing for a super bowl. Good organizations sense that and try to improve their teams. The bengals thought they were smarter than everyone else and that they needed to replace one of their best players before he started to decline.

The Steelers would have spent their high picks on players that could have pushed them over the top and turned a weakness into a strength. Then when Whit was actually declining they would have addressed that at the appropriate time. While that position may no longer be a strength, they would have had a few years with a young stud at a position of need and Whit still locking down OT. Instead the bengals decided the rest of the roster didn’t need improvement and we needed to worry about what would happen a few years later when whit declined...then on top of that they bombed the first two picks. Steelers would have turned a weakness into a strength and kept their strength at OT as well. We managed to turn a strength into a weakness and neglected the rest of the team at the same time.

That’s why they never got over the hump. They’re too worried about the future to improve the current team. Steelers used to be known for defense around their first SB with Ben. They didn’t spend all their time trying to keep the defense stacked for 10 years, they started drafting stars on offense so that both were good. Then the defense declined in the mid 2010’s but the offense was so strong it didn’t matter. Now their offense is going down but defense is on the upswing. That’s how you win a championship every 10 years or so. Build the best team you can every year, don’t worry about 3-5 years from now on you’ll suck now and you’ll suck then

[sandwedge]

I read the article and no where does it say the Bengals are going to do this or that. What I read was, I'd prefer or I think..... That is Hobby speaking.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

Hobson is just guessing like anyone else. I remember a while back he said we didnt need DB help and we traded for Deltha Oneal a couple days later. I think I remember him saying a mid tier LB signing was a priority with the Bengals last off season

[bengaloo]

It wont surprise me if they get a G or RT in FA starter quality. They signed Cordy Glenn in FA, which at the time most of us were happy about. He wouldve been a good signing too, except he didnt seem to take to the new coaching staff. Point is, we signed him in FA and we can sign another one like him this year who will play for our new coaches. It wont surprise me if they bring in an upgrade at least 1 OL position in FA. It may not be the top available player at the position, but as long as its an upgrade its still moving in the right direction. We definitely have some young guys with a lot of upside, and the OL finished pretty strong.

[BrownAssClown]

I think Hobson does his best to keep expectations low; it's probably what he's paid to do. I'll take a wait and see approach and see what they do, even though the oline did show some improvement it was still nothing to write home about. It would be a shame to draft Burrow and not surround him with the best possible line that you could. If they draft Burrow, he becomes the franchise and you need to give the franchise the very best tools to succeed.

[Schmitbuck]

(02-07-2020, 03:43 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Sounds good in theory, but that’s not actually what good organizations do. Take the Ogbuhei draft. We had a very good, playoff team, arguably a couple of pieces away from winning a playoff game and maybe competing for a super bowl. Good organizations sense that and try to improve their teams. The bengals thought they were smarter than everyone else and that they needed to replace one of their best players before he started to decline.

The Steelers would have spent their high picks on players that could have pushed them over the top and turned a weakness into a strength. Then when Whit was actually declining they would have addressed that at the appropriate time. While that position may no longer be a strength, they would have had a few years with a young stud at a position of need and Whit still locking down OT. Instead the bengals decided the rest of the roster didn’t need improvement and we needed to worry about what would happen a few years later when whit declined...then on top of that they bombed the first two picks. Steelers would have turned a weakness into a strength and kept their strength at OT as well. We managed to turn a strength into a weakness and neglected the rest of the team at the same time.

That’s why they never got over the hump. They’re too worried about the future to improve the current team. Steelers used to be known for defense around their first SB with Ben. They didn’t spend all their time trying to keep the defense stacked for 10 years, they started drafting stars on offense so that both were good. Then the defense declined in the mid 2010’s but the offense was so strong it didn’t matter. Now their offense is going down but defense is on the upswing. That’s how you win a championship every 10 years or so. Build the best team you can every year, don’t worry about 3-5 years from now on you’ll suck now and you’ll suck then

Paying attention to players' ages and potential drop off in play is certainly something good organizations do. The context of our exchange was him jumping on a guy (as if he was being ludicrous) for saying DL is a need and should be addressed in the first 4 rounds. I don't think it's a stretch for that guy to say that.

At the time of draft that year, I was OK with the Cedric pick, thought the Fischer pick was overkill so we agree to an extent. Whitworth is a significant outlier for maintaining his level of play late into his 30s. For every Whitworth, there are 30+ guys (excluding QB) whose level of play drops steeply after 10 years in the league (if they last that long). It sucks that he left and in hindsight, signing him would have been the better move, but I don't blame the Bengals for trying to find a replacement a year early. 

[Whodey614]

Zero mention of Glenn in the article means he's as good as gone. If nothing else, I'd like to see them use some of the money they'll save on Glenn and bring in a tackle to supplant Hart. I actually don't think guard is a drastic need. John Miller was inconsistent but Hopkins also played some of his best football with Miller next to him. They seem to be all in on MJ so there's that. They'll probably add a guard in the late rounds and that's it. I think we're all aware that the OL isn't far off from being an average group at the very least but there are obviously 1-2 moves that need to be made and I'm not ready to say that Fred Johnson or Isaiah Prince will fix those issues.

I am encouraged by the possibility of them focusing on the defense. You cannot continue to keep adding bandaids to a side that finished at the bottom 3 straight years. I can definitely live with an offensive-focused draft if they go all-in on defense in FA even though there's a lot of defensive players in the draft I love.

[fredtoast]

I bet I can name 4 of the 5 starters opening day.

Hopkins
Williams
Glenn
Hart

The final guard could be someone we already have (Miller, Jordan, Price) or a draft pick or a free agent.

Not saying this is what I want. Just what I think will happen.

[Au165]

(02-07-2020, 04:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I bet I can name 4 of the 5 starters opening day.

Hopkins
Williams
Glenn
Hart

The final guard could be someone we already have (Miller, Jordan, Price) or a draft pick or a free agent.

Not saying this is what I want.  Just what I think will happen.

I don't think there is any chance Cordy Glenn is here after the draft. 

[fredtoast]

(02-07-2020, 04:29 PM)Whodey614 Wrote: I am encouraged by the possibility of them focusing on the defense. You cannot continue to keep adding bandaids to a side that finished at the bottom 3 straight years. I can definitely live with an offensive-focused draft if they go all-in on defense in FA.

It seems to me that a lot of the problems on defense have to do with coaching.  I have seen players like Jackson, Kirkpatrick, Bates, Dunlap, and Atkins be very productive on good defenses.


But when your defense finishes 32nd and 29th in back-to-back years you have to pump in some more talented players.  We have to either re-sign Dennard or use a high draft pick on CB.  That is an expensive position to address in free agency.  After that we need a smaller faster LB.  Then a good safety and DT.  

[fredtoast]

(02-07-2020, 04:40 PM)Au165 Wrote: I don't think there is any chance Cordy Glenn is here after the draft. 

I think we keep him, but I would not be shocked if he was released either.

[BrownAssClown]

(02-07-2020, 04:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I bet I can name 4 of the 5 starters opening day.

Hopkins
Williams
Glenn
Hart

The final guard could be someone we already have (Miller, Jordan, Price) or a draft pick or a free agent.

Not saying this is what I want.  Just what I think will happen.

Wouldn't surprise me one bit. If they're still rolling with Hart at RT, might as well keep Andy.

[lone bengal]

(02-07-2020, 03:05 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: The two biggest excuses are, “they got better” and “6th in the league in rushing over the second half of the season”. Adressing the first, when you are the worst you have nowhere to go but “better”. To the second, I’ve heard this excuse from the Bengals multiple times at multiple different position groups and players. Being middle of the pack or top 10 or whatever does not mean it’s okay to rest on your laurels. The goal should always, ALWAYS, be #1. That is the only time the status quo is okay.

That or they’ll just name every unproven guy on the roster and say he might develop. Jordan might be good , Fred Johnson who was undrafted might be good, We resigned Bobby Hart , Pratt might be a good LB and we could draft one who also might be good. We signed Isiah Prince. We singed a CFL cornerback he might develop. There plan is basically to hope every unproven player might turn out to be good. Or Hobson acts like because Michael Jordan started he must have played good and beat out good competition to win a staring job. He started because we had no other options ,Jordan was basically are 4th option. Our 1st round pick Price couldn’t beat out a 20 year old rookie because he’s a bust, Boling retired , Redmond who’s also a bum was suspended for steroids and Glenn moved back to tackle.

[fredtoast]

(02-07-2020, 04:53 PM)lone bengal Wrote: Or Hobson acts like because Michael Jordan started he must have played good and beat out good competition to win a staring job. He started because we had no other options ,Jordan was basically are 4th option. 

I won't write a player off after his first season, but I won't act like he is good just because he got to play.

I liked that we got Jordan in the fourth round.  I still think he could develop into a solid player.  But that is based on potential instead of anything he did on the field last year.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-07-2020, 05:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I won't write a player off after his first season, but I won't act like he is good just because he got to play.

I liked that we got Jordan in the fourth round.  I still think he could develop into a solid player.  But that is based on potential instead of anything he did on the field last year.

How is it determined if one has "potential"?  For a football player, I'd say that it almost has to be derived from what he's previously done on a football field.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-07-2020, 05:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I won't write a player off after his first season, but I won't act like he is good just because he got to play.

I liked that we got Jordan in the fourth round.  I still think he could develop into a solid player.  But that is based on potential instead of anything he did on the field last year.

When you quoted the number of starts for guys like Andrews and Ghiaciuc to defend Alexander, isn’t that what you were doing?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-07-2020, 03:05 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: The two biggest excuses are, “they got better” and “6th in the league in rushing over the second half of the season”. Adressing the first, when you are the worst you have nowhere to go but “better”. To the second, I’ve heard this excuse from the Bengals multiple times at multiple different position groups and players. Being middle of the pack or top 10 or whatever does not mean it’s okay to rest on your laurels. The goal should always, ALWAYS, be #1. That is the only time the status quo is okay.

And even then the goal should be to STAY #1.

[lone bengal]

(02-07-2020, 05:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I won't write a player off after his first season, but I won't act like he is good just because he got to play.

I liked that we got Jordan in the fourth round.  I still think he could develop into a solid player.  But that is based on potential instead of anything he did on the field last year.

Agree I think its to early to write Jordan off and I think he might turn out to be solid. My main point was the Bengals and Hobson list every single unproven/ below average player on the roster as a reason not to add additional talent on a roster desperate for it.