Hold on to your guns.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

I was aware of this story since the day it happened. I was not aware of the following CNN interview with a survivor of a family massacred by cartel members near the US Mexican border.





Sadly, CNN appears to have not posted their own version of the video on YouTube. Or, at least, I couldn't find it.

As a gun owner, from a gun owning family, we always thought of ourselves as responsible for our own safety. This includes my mother who could probably out feminist Gloria Steinem. Before my dad left for Vietnam the first time he bought my mother a gun and ensured she knew how to use it. Since she comes from a military family herself this was not an issue. This video is a rather sad reminder of why that is important.

I expect the usual suspects to blame Mexico's gun violence on the US. I expect the usual suspects to claim that civilians wouldn't need guns if they weren't so prolific. I expect all the old excuses for controlling the right of others to defend themselves. What I don't expect is one of them acknowledging that law abiding gun owners are not the problem and never have been. Criminals are the problem and they deserve to have their rights and freedoms restricted, not everyone else.

[GMDino]

(11-08-2019, 12:49 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I was aware of this story since the day it happened.  I was not aware of the following CNN interview with a survivor of a family massacred by cartel members near the US Mexican border.





Sadly, CNN appears to have not posted their own version of the video on YouTube. Or, at least, I couldn't find it.

As a gun owner, from a gun owning family, we always thought of ourselves as responsible for our own safety.  This includes my mother who could probably out feminist Gloria Steinem.  Before my dad left for Vietnam the first time he bought my mother a gun and ensured she knew how to use it.  Since she comes from a military family herself this was not an issue.  This video is a rather sad reminder of why that is important.

I expect the usual suspects to blame Mexico's gun violence on the US.  I expect the usual suspects to claim that civilians wouldn't need guns if they weren't so prolific.  I expect all the old excuses for controlling the right of others to defend themselves.  What I don't expect is one of them acknowledging that law abiding gun owners are not the problem and never have been.  Criminals are the problem and they deserve to have their rights and freedoms restricted, not everyone else.

The full interview is on CNN's site:

https://www.cnn.com/specials/us/anderson-cooper-full-circle/index.html

Also promoted on his Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/AC360/posts/10162697824260533?__tn__=-R



I'm not sure who has blamed the US for Mexico's gun violence.  And count me in on the side of agreeing that people have a right to own arms and to defend themselves.  The proliferation of guns IS a problem, not one that requires the disarming of all citizens but maybe rather a very careful way of making sure criminals have less easy access to them.

This family being targeted and killed is a tragedy.  Perhaps we could could let things cool down before we start posting "I Am Militia" videos telling us we must arm ourselves to protect our families from drug cartels in Mexico.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-08-2019, 02:13 AM)GMDino Wrote: The full interview is on CNN's site:

https://www.cnn.com/specials/us/anderson-cooper-full-circle/index.html

Also promoted on his Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/AC360/posts/10162697824260533?__tn__=-R

I appreciate the sources, thank you.

Quote:I'm not sure who has blamed the US for Mexico's gun violence. 

The LA times: https://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-mexico-guns-20190430-story.html

The NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/opinion/mormons-mexico.html

Hillary Clinton:  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-mexico/u-s-to-blame-for-much-of-mexico-violence-clinton-idUSTRE52O5RF20090325

The New Yorker:  https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-link-between-americas-lax-gun-laws-and-the-violence-that-fuels-immigration

Newsweek:  https://www.newsweek.com/nearly-all-mexico-violence-fueled-illegal-us-guns-1453694

Barack Obama:  https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/05/03/obama_blames_us_for_gun_violence_in_mexico_pushes_for_gun_control.html

Still not sure?

Quote:And count me in on the side of agreeing that people have a right to own arms and to defend themselves.  The proliferation of guns IS a problem, not one that requires the disarming of all citizens but maybe rather a very careful way of making sure criminals have less easy access to them.

Actually, no, it's not.  Since the number of guns in civilians hands has skyrocketed while gun related homicides have plummeted.  I do appreciate your concession that law abiding citizens owning firearms is not a danger.

Quote:This family being targeted and killed is a tragedy.  Perhaps we could could let things cool down before we start posting "I Am Militia" videos telling us we must arm ourselves to protect our families from drug cartels in Mexico.

I am all for letting things cool down.  Apparently this isn't the case for this particular family member.  However, I don't recall you calling for such a grace period from David Hogg or Ms. Gonzalez.  Or was their CNN Townhall equally inappropriate?

[Brownshoe]

I know their family, and was in a group chat with them when all this stuff was going down. The husband works in ND in the oil fields with me. There's actually a lot of their family that works up here and travels back and forth.

[GMDino]

(11-08-2019, 02:36 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The LA times: https://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-mexico-guns-20190430-story.html

The NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/opinion/mormons-mexico.html

Hillary Clinton:  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-mexico/u-s-to-blame-for-much-of-mexico-violence-clinton-idUSTRE52O5RF20090325

The New Yorker:  https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-link-between-americas-lax-gun-laws-and-the-violence-that-fuels-immigration

Newsweek:  https://www.newsweek.com/nearly-all-mexico-violence-fueled-illegal-us-guns-1453694

Barack Obama:  https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/05/03/obama_blames_us_for_gun_violence_in_mexico_pushes_for_gun_control.html

Still not sure?

The first two "blame" the US because so many of the guns in Mexico comes from here.

Clinton blamed violence on US drug use and admitted many of the guns being used come from the US.

The New Yorker cited actual illegal gun sales made possible by US gun laws.

Newsweek's article was based on Trump administration saying the guns come from America.

Obama is quoted saying this:

Quote:"Most of the guns used to commit violence here in Mexico come from the United States," President Obama said during a speech at Mexico's Anthropology Museum. "I think many of you know that in America, our Constitution guarantees our individual right to bear arms. And as president, I swore an oath to uphold that right, and I always will."

"But at the same time, as I’ve said in the United States, I will continue to do everything in my power to pass common-sense reforms that keep guns out of the hands of criminals and dangerous people. That can save lives here in Mexico and back home in the United States. It’s the right thing to do," Obama added.

Maybe I misinterpreted your statement:

Quote:I expect the usual suspects to blame Mexico's gun violence on the US.

(I mean that Fast and Furious went off the rails under Obama's watch is high irony but that's the entirety of the article linked.)

I thought you meant the US policies and perhaps were tying it into immigration somehow.

If there is proof the guns are coming from the US and the drug cartels are making money selling drugs in the US then that seems to be a levelheaded answer.  If the guns are entering Mexico illegally we need to address that and try to stop it either with current laws or better laws with fewer loopholes.  I'm not an expert on current gun laws and how they work when crossing country borders.


I will say I appreciate the links to actually back up your claim though.  Very refreshing around here.

(11-08-2019, 02:36 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I am all for letting things cool down.  Apparently this isn't the case for this particular family member.  However, I don't recall you calling for such a grace period from David Hogg or Ms. Gonzalez.  Or was their CNN Townhall equally inappropriate?

That's kind of the point.  When a schp the folks who want to find answers to people doing it are told to not talk about the guns.  "Too soon".  But this one is being used within a week of the tragic event by you here (I don't know if there are others) to say we don't need to look at the other events because this one shows why everyone should be armed.

Obviously I don't disagree that we have a right to own guns, but I don't see how this tragic event should be used to either disarm American citizens in America or as an iconic moment to defend the 2nd amendment.

[fredtoast]

(11-08-2019, 12:49 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:   What I don't expect is one of them acknowledging that law abiding gun owners are not the problem and never have been.  Criminals are the problem and they deserve to have their rights and freedoms restricted, not everyone else.

I have always acknowledged that law abiding gun owners are not the problem   That is why I support laws that don't take guns away from law abiding citizens but go a long way toward the control of guns in the hands of criminals and hold non-law abiding citizens responsible for the damage their guns do.

Do you support laws like that SSF?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-08-2019, 10:06 AM)GMDino Wrote: The first two "blame" the US because so many of the guns in Mexico comes from here.

Clinton blamed violence on US drug use and admitted many of the guns being used come from the US.

The New Yorker cited actual illegal gun sales made possible by US gun laws.

Newsweek's article was based on Trump administration saying the guns come from America.

Obama is quoted saying this:

You're citing reasons they blame the US, I simply stated they did, which they do.  The reasons vary, but the constant is that Mexico's gun violence is frequently blamed on US gun laws.  I stated this was frequently claimed and it is.

Quote:Maybe I misinterpreted your statement:

(I mean that Fast and Furious went off the rails under Obama's watch is high irony but that's the entirety of the article linked.)

I thought you meant the US policies and perhaps were tying it into immigration somehow.

No, this thread has absolutely nothing to do with immigration.

Quote:If there is proof the guns are coming from the US and the drug cartels are making money selling drugs in the US then that seems to be a levelheaded answer.  If the guns are entering Mexico illegally we need to address that and try to stop it either with current laws or better laws with fewer loopholes.  I'm not an expert on current gun laws and how they work when crossing country borders.

Drugs enter the US illegally from Mexico all the time despite huge efforts to prevent this.  Guns are not flowing into Mexico from the US because we don't have any issue with that or don't try and prevent it.  As for crossing the Mexico/US border with a gun, it is highly illegal.  Mexican gun laws are very strict, as noted in the video in OP.  Criminals obtain them illegally nonetheless.

Quote:I will say I appreciate the links to actually back up your claim though.  Very refreshing around here.

No problem.

Quote:That's kind of the point.  When a schp the folks who want to find answers to people doing it are told to not talk about the guns.  "Too soon".  But this one is being used within a week of the tragic event by you here (I don't know if there are others) to say we don't need to look at the other events because this one shows why everyone should be armed.

Actually, I think every single example shows why we should be armed.  There are bad people who will use our rights to commit harmful acts.  The police are not going to be able to instantly teleport to the scene of such an act.  In the beginning of an incident you can only rely on yourself or those with you for protection.  The "too soon" argument has been roundly derided by the control side of this debate, so they can't exactly pull it out now.  You do make a good point though, right after an incident is a terrible time to make policy decisions.  Emotional decisions are usually poor ones.  I had the exact same reaction to New Zealand's obscene reaction to the Christchurch shooting.  One bad person means millions lose their firearms.  yet the NZ government was roundly praised for acting "too soon".

Quote:Obviously I don't disagree that we have a right to own guns, but I don't see how this tragic event should be used to either disarm American citizens in America or as an iconic moment to defend the 2nd amendment.

I believe her point, based on listening to her, is that when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.  Kind of hard to argue with in Mexico were the military can't hold their own against cartel gunmen.  What chance does an unarmed civilian have in that country?  There are hundreds of bodies hanging from freeway overpasses with narco banners draped on them to answer that question, and thousands of more people who  just "disappeared".