Holy ********* Crazy

[*wildcats forever*]

(05-31-2017, 06:45 PM)Dill Wrote: I am enjoying the dialogue between Michaelsean and Belsnickel.  Good questions and good answers. Both parties stay focused on the issues, and so their dialogue digs deeper than the usual tit for tat name-calling.

I am enjoying it too. Let's keep a good thought it remains as such.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-31-2017, 04:30 PM)GMDino Wrote: Plenty of them.

Here's one.

http://thehill.com/latino/324607-reports-find-that-immigrants-commit-less-crime-than-us-born-citizens


Edit to add this one also:
https://qz.com/895624/how-much-crime-is-committed-by-immigrants/

I'm not really sure how that article leads to your conclusion.  It's talking about the number of people incarcerated, not the number of crimes that have actually been committed . 

In additon to that, what exactly are these people incarcerated for? 

[GMDino]

(05-31-2017, 08:56 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I'm not really sure how that article leads to your conclusion.  It's talking about the number of people incarcerated, not the number of crimes that have actually been committed . 

In additon to that, what exactly are these people incarcerated for? 

My conclusion was that, as a percentage, citizens are more likely to commit crimes than immigrants.  Legal or illegal.

You asked for a source.

I gave you two.

If you want more info I suggest you do some research and report back if it supports *your* conclusion.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Question, if an immigrant is in the country illegally, are they not committing a crime?

So, I can say that 100% of illegal immigrants are criminal just by being here illegally.

[GMDino]

(05-31-2017, 09:21 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Question, if an immigrant is in the country illegally, are they not committing a crime?

So, I can say that 100% of illegal immigrants are criminal just by being here illegally.

If a person speeds and isn't caught are they committing a crime.  I can say a larger percentage of citizens commit crimes than are in jail or charged.

Semantics and not what the discussion was about.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-31-2017, 09:03 PM)GMDino Wrote: My conclusion was that, as a percentage, citizens are more likely to commit crimes than immigrants.  Legal or illegal.

You asked for a source.

I gave you two.

If you want more info I suggest you do some research and report back if it supports *your* conclusion.

But the problem is that you're using that claim as a basis for arguing against cracking down on illegals, or am I wrong?

[GMDino]

(05-31-2017, 09:29 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: But the problem is that you're using that claim as a basis for arguing against cracking down on illegals, or am I wrong?

Yep.  You're wrong.

I was responding to these two posts.

(05-31-2017, 12:05 PM)Vlad Wrote: This kind of logic is adorable.

 Give me your tired, your poor, your criminals, murderers, drug dealers because we already have them anyway.

(05-31-2017, 12:08 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Yeah, seems pretty strange to me.

By saying that immigrant are less likely to commit crimes than citizens.

(05-31-2017, 12:17 PM)GMDino Wrote: It's not asking for those people to come here.

It's explaining that while some people who immigrate here (both legally and illegally) may be bad people the vast majority are not.  In fact you have a better chance of someone who was born and raised here doing a violent act than an immigrant.

It's not to invite in the worst of the worst...it's to explain that using the fear what "might happen" to make people afraid of all foreigners.

I also mentioned that illegal ones here commit less crimes....but not defend illegal immigration...just as a point made by the two sources provided.

So back to my point:  Vlad and you (by your follow up post) said that we should turn away immigrants (all) because there are people here who commit crimes.  I pointed out (with links) that the immigrants don't commit those crimes (that Vlad said) at the same rate as citizens so we'd actually lower the crime rate by allowing immigrants.

And using the fear of what "might happen" is wrong as a fact or as a thought.

[Benton]

(05-31-2017, 09:21 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Question, if an immigrant is in the country illegally, are they not committing a crime?

So, I can say that 100% of illegal immigrants are criminal just by being here illegally.

Many of them are people whose initial work visas have expired and they're waiting for guidance from the federal government. Sometimes for decades. The system is horribly ineffective largely because its understaffed.

Also, not being legal doesn't mke them criminals. If you get a parking ticket, you violated the law, but that doesn't make you a felon. If you violate immigration law, likewise you aren't convicted of a felony. It's not the same as armed robbery.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-31-2017, 09:39 PM)GMDino Wrote: Yep.  You're wrong.

I was responding to these two posts.



By saying that immigrant are less likely to commit crimes than citizens.


I also mentioned that illegal ones here commit less crimes....but not defend illegal immigration...just as a point made by the two sources provided.

So back to my point:  Vlad and you (by your follow up post) said that we should turn away immigrants (all) because there are people here who commit crimes.  I pointed out (with links) that the immigrants don't commit those crimes (that Vlad said) at the same rate as citizens so we'd actually lower the crime rate by allowing immigrants.

And using the fear of what "might happen" is wrong as a fact or as a thought.

Your article doesn't support your point though. Again, it does not address how many crimes are actually being committed, just the number of people incarcerated.

Also I never said we should turn away immigrants.

[NATI BENGALS]

I remember the good old days when i proudly cast my vote for Kathy griffen and Madonna. Cant believe they let us down as elected representatives....

Its almost like these ones nobody voted for are held to a higher standard than lets say the Montana guy who won an election the day after choke slamming a reporter. Or the guy in the white house who has a disdain for ethics.

Lot of butt hurt over colbert a comedian giving the prez shit. And now more outrage over another comedian....

[GMDino]

(05-31-2017, 09:45 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Your article doesn't support your point though. Again, it does not address how many crimes are actually being committed, just the number of people incarcerated.

Also I never said we should turn away immigrants.

So your argument as I understand it is that  more immigrants are committing crimes than citizens, they just aren't caught at the same rate as citizens, because you believe it...not because you have any research to back it up.

Okay.

Next topic.

[Belsnickel]

(05-31-2017, 09:21 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Question, if an immigrant is in the country illegally, are they not committing a crime?

So, I can say that 100% of illegal immigrants are criminal just by being here illegally.

There have been some pseudoanswers to this, but nothing definitive. The answer is no. Being an undocumented immigrant is not a criminal offense, but a civil one. So no, not all illegal immigrants are criminals. Now, crossing the border illegally is a crime, but as has already been pointed out there are many illegal immigrants that did not cross the border illegally. Plus, there is a statute of limitations on federal crimes like that. This doesn't mean they didn't commit the crime, but they may not be able to be charged for it.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(05-31-2017, 09:25 PM)GMDino Wrote: If a person speeds and isn't caught are they committing a crime.  I can say a larger percentage of citizens commit crimes than are in jail or charged.

Semantics and not what the discussion was about.

Did you seriously ask if someone was breaking the law and wasn't caught were they still breaking the law?

[GMDino]

(05-31-2017, 10:21 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Did you seriously ask if someone was breaking the law and wasn't caught were they still breaking the law?

In context.  It was presented to me that every person here illegally is committing a crime and just because more citizens are incarcerated that doesn't mean they commit more crimes.  I propose that lots of people commit crimes and are never caught.  Do we count all of them too?

[Vlad]

(05-31-2017, 09:25 PM)GMDino Wrote: If a person speeds and isn't caught are they committing a crime.  I can say a larger percentage of citizens commit crimes than are in jail or charged.

Semantics and not what the discussion was about.

Just an fyi.. speeding is hardly referred to as a crime, its considered a violation or infraction, otherwise they would call it a speeding crime.

And I can say that if you counted citizens that have committed crimes and not caught, vs the illegals who have not been caught, the illegals at 100% commit the larger percentage of the crime.

btw..thats the reason  they're called "illegals" in case you haven't connected the two.

[Benton]

(05-31-2017, 10:29 PM)Vlad Wrote: Just an fyi.. speeding is hardly referred to as a crime, its considered a violation or infraction, otherwise they would call it a speeding crime.

And I can say that if you counted citizens that have committed crimes and not caught, vs the illegals who have not been caught, the illegals at 100% commit the larger percentage of the crime.

btw..thats the reason  they're called "illegals" in case you haven't connected the two.

they're called illegals as a pejorative. People don't refer to criminals who break traffic laws as illegal drivers because it's not a politicized issue.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-31-2017, 10:13 AM)Griever Wrote: not to mention white extremist commit more terror attacks in the US than foreigners do

build the wall?

1. You're missing the point. It's not a White thing. Its a Kathy Griffith thing, a Snoop thing, the Berkeley rioters thing, Antifa thing, the View cast thing, Elizabeth Warren thing, Al Franken thing, Madonna thing, Ashley Judd thing, Steven Colbert thing, Michael Moore thing, and on and on and on...she is just one more liberal, leftist, democrat, hypocrite, to show her vile nature. I'm not painting with a wide brush, the LEFT, has widely shown a collective meltdown, and its ridiculous. And what makes me the most upset about it, is that, you do not see RATIONAL DEMOCRATS, speaking out against these morons. Therefore, they let these idiots speak for them, because they allow this behavior, endorse this behavior, or just ignore this behavior.

[Vlad]

(05-31-2017, 04:30 PM)GMDino Wrote: Plenty of them.

Here's one.

http://thehill.com/latino/324607-reports-find-that-immigrants-commit-less-crime-than-us-born-citizens

Clearly an agenda driven article littered with its false indictments of Trump.

I would lean more toward trusting data compiled by the Government Accountability Office (GAO) using official Department of Justice data on criminal aliens.
[*]Between 2008 and 2014, 40% of all murder convictions in Florida were criminal aliens. In New York it was 34% and Arizona 17.8%.
[*]During those years, criminal aliens accounted for 38% of all murder convictions in the five states of California, Texas, Arizona, Florida and New York, while illegal aliens constitute only 5.6% of the total population in those states.
[*]That 38% represents 7,085 murders out of the total of 18,643.
[*]

And the millions of our taxpayer dollars spent on these people. Not even citizens.

The number of criminal aliens in federal prisons in fiscal year 2010 was about 55,000, and the number of SCAAP criminal alien incarcerations in state prison systems and local jails was about 296,000 in fiscal year 2009 (the most recent data available), and the majority were from Mexico. The number of criminal aliens in federal prisons increased about 7 percent from about 51,000 in fiscal year 2005 while the number of SCAAP criminal alien incarcerations in state prison systems and local jails increased about 35 percent from about 220,000 in fiscal year 2003.

http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-11-187
 
[*]https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=+Government+Accountability+Office+(GAO)+using+official+Department+of+Justice+data+on+criminal+aliens.+&spf=1496281079373

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-31-2017, 10:07 PM)GMDino Wrote: So your argument as I understand it is that  more immigrants are committing crimes than citizens, they just aren't caught at the same rate as citizens, because you believe it...not because you have any research to back it up.

Okay.

Next topic.

Not my argument.

I just don't agree with what you said. I can disagree with you without having to make the opposing claim. 

[NATI BENGALS]

(05-31-2017, 11:07 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote:

1. You're missing the point. It's not a White thing. Its a Kathy Griffith thing, a Snoop thing, the Berkeley rioters thing, Antifa thing, the View cast thing, Elizabeth Warren thing, Al Franken thing, Madonna thing, Ashley Judd thing, Steven Colbert thing, Michael Moore thing, and on and on and on...she is just one more liberal, leftist, democrat, hypocrite, to show her vile nature. I'm not painting with a wide brush, the LEFT, has widely shown a collective meltdown, and its ridiculous. And what makes me the most upset about it, is that, you do not see RATIONAL DEMOCRATS, speaking out against these morons. Therefore, they let these idiots speak for them, because they allow this behavior, endorse this behavior, or just ignore this behavior.

I remember when Ted Nugent made numerous life threatening derogatory comments about our president and presidential candidates for like the last 10 years.

Trump invited him to the white house and had him in the oval office as a special guest.

Madonna was talked about plenty for being an idiot. Griffen was fired faster than michael flynn. Both massive coverage on just about every news source with no major network agreeing with them. While Nugent was invited to the White House by our president...

I do see the hypocrisy you speak of.