(06-15-2017, 02:37 PM)Benton Wrote: We've moved to a culture where being a good person isn't regarded or worth as much as being the winner.
I am doing my very best to not go off on a rant about capitalism in response to this remark.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(06-15-2017, 03:22 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I am doing my very best to not go off on a rant about capitalism in response to this remark.
Damn those Germans did a number on you.
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall
(06-15-2017, 03:28 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Damn those Germans did a number on you.
Well, it can be traced back to German teachings, but not recently. I have always had these notions but they do stem from communal Anabaptist teachings, I think.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(06-15-2017, 03:21 PM)michaelsean Wrote: i never said they were equally partisan, I'm speaking only of partisan news outlets, and for that matter partisan people. If you don't think the left tries the blame game equally, you are one of those people. Again I will refer you to Aurora and Giffords.
I guess I am "one of those people." I don't hear anything like Hannity, Rush and Levin on "the left" any more than I hear any other politician like Trump at the level of national politics. And I don't think there is much of a left in the US--certainly not mainstream.
It is hard to answer you, since you aren't using specific examples. "Aurora and Giffords" are just general mentions. The NYT just put out an editorial infering Palin's website influenced Gifford's shooter, then immediately corrected the error. Can you identify a reporter or news paper(s) who, in your view, play the blame game equally? E.g. regarding the Aurora shooting?
Also, I should add that when I say I don't think "the Left" is equally blaming, I am offering that as an empirical description. It can be refuted with examples of "leftists" who use the same tactics as the right and to the same degree.
(06-15-2017, 01:28 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Trump's supporters and the Republican establishment have to take responsibility for legitimizing Trump. Trump may have taken it to 11 but his supporters said that was okay by supporting him because they have been pushed to believing more extreme action is necessary to take back their country. They have been pushed by the Tea Party, Entertainment news and Republican establishment through baseless fear mongering and it picked up steam once Obama got elected it just got worse and worse. Obama did nothing to warrant the spewing of alternative facts and overall hate that was flung his way. He was just another president. There was no reason to deny his supreme court nominee and there was no reason why all of the obstruction the Republicans caused should have happened during his time.
Don't take my statement as a way to excuse violence on behalf of liberals but it's the root of the problem. If Republicans weren't pushed to believe their country was under siege by the men and women in power then they wouldn't find extremism necessary and Trump wouldn't have the support he did. If they spent less time fear mongering and more time doing what they said they would do we wouldn't be in this position. Electing Trump just fostered more extremism. Trump supporters double down and everyone else that can't stand him that gets unfairly labeled a liberal resort to more extreme tendency's. I'm a registered Independent and get called a liberal all of the time.
We all should agree that the political climate needs to change and violence needs to stop but to act like both parties are equally to blame isn't true imo. While both parties have caused damage in their own way there is only one party that endorsed Trump and let him speak under their banner and jumped at the first opportunity to shift what they believed in order to adopt Trump as their own.
The swamp, Alt facts news/blogs and now Trump have all made a killing off of the manipulation of a group of people and while it isn't unheard of for politicians to manipulate supporters across the board for their own gain the boundaries have been pushed since George W's 2nd term. Not blaming him that's just when I remember the fear mongering started ramping up.
The fear mongers are the problem.
Well said, but thanks to the fear mongering, this will never cross party lines as an accurate explanation. For many, no drama Obama is still the THE WORST PRESIDENT EVER who spent too much time playing golf and going on expensive vacations. Your version of how we got here will only register as "blame."
At the root of our broken politics is the national capacity to assess events without jumping to blame first--though it certainly may be warranted later. And our young folk are coming to adulthood in this environment. To assess this loss of capacity, one only need compare past foreign policy disasters like the Mayaguez incident in 1975 or Lebanon in 1983 with Benghazi in 2012.
(06-15-2017, 01:28 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Trump's supporters and the Republican establishment have to take responsibility for legitimizing Trump. Trump may have taken it to 11 but his supporters said that was okay by supporting him because they have been pushed to believing more extreme action is necessary to take back their country. They have been pushed by the Tea Party, Entertainment news and Republican establishment through baseless fear mongering and it picked up steam once Obama got elected it just got worse and worse. Obama did nothing to warrant the spewing of alternative facts and overall hate that was flung his way. He was just another president. There was no reason to deny his supreme court nominee and there was no reason why all of the obstruction the Republicans caused should have happened during his time.
Don't take my statement as a way to excuse violence on behalf of liberals but it's the root of the problem. If Republicans weren't pushed to believe their country was under siege by the men and women in power then they wouldn't find extremism necessary and Trump wouldn't have the support he did. If they spent less time fear mongering and more time doing what they said they would do we wouldn't be in this position. Electing Trump just fostered more extremism. Trump supporters double down and everyone else that can't stand him that gets unfairly labeled a liberal resort to more extreme tendency's. I'm a registered Independent and get called a liberal all of the time.
We all should agree that the political climate needs to change and violence needs to stop but to act like both parties are equally to blame isn't true imo. While both parties have caused damage in their own way there is only one party that endorsed Trump and let him speak under their banner and jumped at the first opportunity to shift what they believed in order to adopt Trump as their own.
The swamp, Alt facts news/blogs and now Trump have all made a killing off of the manipulation of a group of people and while it isn't unheard of for politicians to manipulate supporters across the board for their own gain the boundaries have been pushed since George W's 2nd term. Not blaming him that's just when I remember the fear mongering started ramping up.
The fear mongers are the problem.
This is misleading and mostly false. Sounds like its right out of the NY Times.
It's clear have you have no understanding of who the Republican establishment really is. You'll be surprised to learn they are on your side with regards to Trump.
Speaking of that liberal NY Times rag, they used this recent shooting as a reason to lie again.
In an equivalency editorial they blamed politics and Sarah Palin for the Gabby Giffords shooting stating it was because of politics and Sarah Palin...yeah remember her and the leftist vitriol toward her?
But I digress, the NY Times equivalency editorial:
Originally, the Timesarticle, “America’s Lethal Politics,” had stated:
Quote:Was this attack evidence of how vicious American politics has become? Probably. In 2011, when Jared Lee Loughner opened fire in a supermarket parking lot, grievously wounding Representative Gabby Giffords and killing six people, including a 9-year-old girl, the link to political incitement was clear. Before the shooting, Sarah Palin’s political action committee circulated a map of targeted electoral districts that put Ms. Giffords and 19 other Democrats under stylized cross hairs.
That was proven untrue. Loughner was a mental patient, who wrote letters to Giffords. Wasn't happy with the responses so he decided he was gonna shoot her.
And here we have more leftist hate... driven by left wing media politics:
Leftists mock and laugh at the idea that there is militant Islamic Jihad going on. But they are armed and ready to do battle with American Republicans and conservatives.
(06-16-2017, 04:11 AM)hollodero Wrote: Your reaction to the shooting is not that great. With rhetorics like this, nothing will ever change for the better.
I don't think people that behave like he does want it to improve.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(06-15-2017, 08:01 PM)Dill Wrote: I guess I am "one of those people." I don't hear anything like Hannity, Rush and Levin on "the left" any more than I hear any other politician like Trump at the level of national politics. And I don't think there is much of a left in the US--certainly not mainstream.
It is hard to answer you, since you aren't using specific examples. "Aurora and Giffords" are just general mentions. The NYT just put out an editorial infering Palin's website influenced Gifford's shooter, then immediately corrected the error. Can you identify a reporter or news paper(s) who, in your view, play the blame game equally? E.g. regarding the Aurora shooting?
Also, I should add that when I say I don't think "the Left" is equally blaming, I am offering that as an empirical description. It can be refuted with examples of "leftists" who use the same tactics as the right and to the same degree.
Yes. Brian Ross came on TV and said there is a member of the TEA Party on facebook with the same name as the Aurora shooter, and showed it. There were other people with the same name, but he chose that one. And remember these were not right wing people to begin with. They were trying to play the blame game anyway. And it's great the NYT retracted it, but plenty of other places picked it up and ran with it., and why did the NYT run it to begin with? But I've yet to see you ever acknowledge that the left has issues like this so I'm pretty much beating my head against the wall right now.
And then we have Dylann Roof. Not a crazy person, but an example of right wing extremism.
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall
(06-16-2017, 11:02 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Republicans and Democrats actually agree on something in a moment of rare clarity and your response is, "Spare me."
(06-16-2017, 10:23 AM)michaelsean Wrote:
[b]It doesn't matter. Some have a block. They really do only see one side, and will give you legitimate reasons why these people said that. [/b]
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
I'm not sure what his statement had to do with what I was replying to.
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall
(06-16-2017, 11:12 AM)GMDino Wrote: You statement that "some people have a block" applied perfectly fine.
Thanks!
Thanks again.
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall
(06-16-2017, 08:48 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't think people that behave like he does want it to improve.
(06-16-2017, 09:56 AM)Vlad Wrote: Spare me the "we need to come together" while singing Kumbaya nonsense.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
We had a thread not too long ago about "punching a nazi" and all the support, celebrity and otherwise, for using psychical violence against those whose speech they found abhorrent. I said at the time that not only was this unacceptable but it would continue to escalate. You then get bike lock swinging Eric Clanton and Yvette Falarca, who openly calls for, and engages in, violent action against political opponents and yet somehow still has her job as a public school teacher.
When you refuse to censure, or even ignore, unacceptable, in this case violent, behavior you are tacitly telling the people engaging in it that what they are doing is ok. This, obviously, emboldens them. When they receive kudos and support, as they have, this emboldens them even more. Everyone should be condemning violence against political opponents and if you've been encouraging it, on twitter or anywhere else, you have some of Scalise's blood on your hands.
Leftists mock and laugh at the idea that there is militant Islamic Jihad going on. But they are armed and ready to do battle with American Republicans and conservatives.
You mean New York Times the established and widely credited news organization? Yeah I read them compared to entertainment news run by a bunch of clowns taking advantage of the weak minded.
(06-16-2017, 11:31 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: We had a thread not too long ago about "punching a nazi" and all the support, celebrity and otherwise, for using psychical violence against those whose speech they found abhorrent. I said at the time that not only was this unacceptable but it would continue to escalate. You then get bike lock swinging Eric Clanton and Yvette Falarca, who openly calls for, and engages in, violent action against political opponents and yet somehow still has her job as a public school teacher.
When you refuse to censure, or even ignore, unacceptable, in this case violent, behavior you are tacitly telling the people engaging in it that what they are doing is ok. This, obviously, emboldens them. When they receive kudos and support, as they have, this emboldens them even more. Everyone should be condemning violence against political opponents and if you've been encouraging it, on twitter or anywhere else, you have some of Scalise's blood on your hands.
What happens when the POSTUS refuses to censure, or even ignore, unacceptable, in this case violent behavior?
This type of behavior has been being welcomed by Trump and his supporters since the campaign, She we can stop fine tuning the outrage toward the last guy who acts out.
Meanwhile I agree it needs to stop. Period.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
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