Dueling Protests Pro Palestine vs. Pro Israel

[Luvnit2]

Today we saw the first organized protest supporting Israel. I did not ee them burn American or Palestinian flags. I did not see them chant Genocide Joe, you must go. I did not see hate filled speeches only cries to release the hostages.

On contrast, the Palestinian protests are getting closer to the BLM protests after the George Floyd death. Why does anyone support any group that turns a protest into a hate filled vehicle for destruction.

Congrats to Israel march on Washington today, a protest filled with class all day long.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Regardless of your position on the current conflict, it is undeniable that the contrast between the two side's protests was stark.

[Millhouse]

(11-14-2023, 07:21 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Regardless of your position on the current conflict, it is undeniable that the contrast between the two side's protests was stark.

Maybe it's as simple as one side supporting Western Civilization and the other doesn't. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-14-2023, 09:24 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Maybe it's as simple as one side supporting Western Civilization and the other doesn't. 

Some might label you racist for such a remark, although supporting the principles of Western civilization can hardly be considered a racial attribute.  While the west certainly does not always get it right, the ideals are solid and something to strive for.  I think you've got a solid foundation here.

[Belsnickel]

(11-14-2023, 09:24 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Maybe it's as simple as one side supporting Western Civilization and the other doesn't. 

(11-14-2023, 09:30 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Some might label you racist for such a remark, although supporting the principles of Western civilization can hardly be considered a racial attribute.  While the west certainly does not always get it right, the ideals are solid and something to strive for.  I think you've got a solid foundation here.

I mean, I would disagree. This isn't to say that one side isn't more on the side of western ideals than the other, but Israel's embracing of western ideals goes as far as the weapons we send them. They put on a show because we prop them up. Granted, their treatment of Palestinians is pretty much a carbon copy of how we treated the Native Americans just with more modern technology, so maybe they do embrace western values more than I think.

[Millhouse]

(11-14-2023, 09:30 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Some might label you racist for such a remark, although supporting the principles of Western civilization can hardly be considered a racial attribute.  While the west certainly does not always get it right, the ideals are solid and something to strive for.  I think you've got a solid foundation here.

If being in favor of liberal precepts such as rule of law, all human rights, scientific discovery, trial by jury, freedom of religion. government barren of religion makes me racist to some people, then they need to rethink some things. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-14-2023, 09:37 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I mean, I would disagree. This isn't to say that one side isn't more on the side of western ideals than the other, but Israel's embracing of western ideals goes as far as the weapons we send them. They put on a show because we prop them up. Granted, their treatment of Palestinians is pretty much a carbon copy of how we treated the Native Americans just with more modern technology, so maybe they do embrace western values more than I think.

The problem here is that religion is super deep in the mix on this issue.  Once that occurs logic is going to take a back seat on some issues.  I would say that the Jews have a historical claim on the land, so the comparison to treatment of the Native Americans isn't exactly apt.  But I am also on record as saying that every inch of land as someone else's at some point.  I think Mill's, and my own, point is that Israel is a far more progressive state, major flaws included, than any other nation in the region.  Admittedly, that's not exactly a high bar to hurdle, but it is true.

One cannot deny that the tenor of the protests from the two sides is markedly different.  I am aware there are arguments to be made for why that is, but the fact remains.

(11-14-2023, 09:39 PM)Millhouse Wrote: If being in favor of liberal precepts such as rule of law, all human rights, scientific discovery, trial by jury, freedom of religion. government barren of religion makes me racist to some people, then they need to rethink some things. 

You'll get no argument from me, I agree with your point in principle.  While Israel certainly falls short in some of those areas it is leaps and bounds ahead of its neighbors in that regard.

[Belsnickel]

(11-14-2023, 10:03 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The problem here is that religion is super deep in the mix on this issue.  Once that occurs logic is going to take a back seat on some issues.  I would say that the Jews have a historical claim on the land, so the comparison to treatment of the Native Americans isn't exactly apt.  But I am also on record as saying that every inch of land as someone else's at some point.  I think Mill's, and my own, point is that Israel is a far more progressive state, major flaws included, than any other nation in the region.  Admittedly, that's not exactly a high bar to hurdle, but it is true.

One cannot deny that the tenor of the protests from the two sides is markedly different.  I am aware there are arguments to be made for why that is, but the fact remains.

The Jewish people have no more of a claim to it than the Palestinians. The Palestinian people are primarily the descendants of the Jews that were too poor to flee the area when it was occupied by others. They may have been converted by those occupiers, but their historical claim to the land is no less than that of the Jews that displaced them. Now, the indigenous people on this continent didn't really claim ownership to the land, but the US government forced them onto reservations, like the Israelis did to the Palestinians. They wouldn't let them leave the reservations without special permission, like how the Israelis treat the Palestinians. They controlled the food, water, and other necessities going to the reservations, like the Israelis do for the Palestinians. It is remarkably similar.

Just like when it comes to the Native uprisings, I abhor the killing of innocents and there is no justification for it. I just can't say I am surprised when people are dispossessed and denied liberty that they are going to act in the manner that they did.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-14-2023, 10:26 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The Jewish people have no more of a claim to it than the Palestinians. The Palestinian people are primarily the descendants of the Jews that were too poor to flee the area when it was occupied by others. They may have been converted by those occupiers, but their historical claim to the land is no less than that of the Jews that displaced them. Now, the indigenous people on this continent didn't really claim ownership to the land, but the US government forced them onto reservations, like the Israelis did to the Palestinians. They wouldn't let them leave the reservations without special permission, like how the Israelis treat the Palestinians. They controlled the food, water, and other necessities going to the reservations, like the Israelis do for the Palestinians. It is remarkably similar.

You make a good argument here, maybe your comparison is more apt than I gave it credit for initially.  An interesting tidbit in the above though is the statement that the Jews have no more claim on the land than the Palestinians.  Another way of putting that would be they have no less of a claim.  Without religion this could have been solved at some point, but, as I said, religion is up to its eyeballs in this issue.  Not only with the Israelis and Palestinians, but Israel's neighbors as well.

Quote:Just like when it comes to the Native uprisings, I abhor the killing of innocents and there is no justification for it. I just can't say I am surprised when people are dispossessed and denied liberty that they are going to act in the manner that they did.

And I can't say I'm surprised with the response to the "uprising" either.  The real foundational issue here though is that the conflict wouldn't end if the Israelis went back to the 1948 border.  The conflict only ends when Israel no longer exists and the Jewish population is dead or has fled the region, or radical Islam ceases to be such a powerful force in the Muslim world.  In other words, there is no end in sight.

[Belsnickel]

(11-15-2023, 11:56 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You make a good argument here, maybe your comparison is more apt than I gave it credit for initially.  An interesting tidbit in the above though is the statement that the Jews have no more claim on the land than the Palestinians.  Another way of putting that would be they have no less of a claim.  Without religion this could have been solved at some point, but, as I said, religion is up to its eyeballs in this issue.  Not only with the Israelis and Palestinians, but Israel's neighbors as well.

Well, I could say that the Jews do have less of a claim, as they abandoned the land while the Palestinians they displaced remained there. But this is also where my anti-colonialist ways tend to come to the forefront as my position on land claims is not really in line with western thinking, anyway. I don't see any of them really having a claim to the land.

(11-15-2023, 11:56 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: And I can't say I'm surprised with the response to the "uprising" either.  The real foundational issue here though is that the conflict wouldn't end if the Israelis went back to the 1948 border.  The conflict only ends when Israel no longer exists and the Jewish population is dead or has fled the region, or radical Islam ceases to be such a powerful force in the Muslim world.  In other words, there is no end in sight.

Well, that is the way it seems now. It is important to contextualize this by understanding that Jews lived in the region peacefully for a very long time. It wasn't until the movement to created a Jewish ethno-state, i.e. Zionism, started to be used to displace the population living there that widespread issues emerged. The view towards the Jewish people in the region comes from over a century of those efforts. We must understand the animosity in order to have any hope of putting an end to it.

[Luvnit2]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/pro-palestinian-violent-protest-erupts-outside-dnc-headquarters-washington-dc-capitol-police-injured

Here we go, more violence versus peaceful protests. An estimated 300,000 protested antisemitism in D.C. Tuesday, all peaceful. 300 protested the war nd 6 police officers injured. Will those arrested get years in prison?

Pro-Palestinian violent protest erupts outside DNC headquarters in Washington DC, Capitol police injured
The U.S. Capitol Police said that six of their officers were injured during the protest

U.S. Capitol Police (USCP) said about 150 people were "illegally and violently protesting" near the DNC headquarters building in the Capitol Hill neighborhood of Washington.

Protesters told Fox News Digital that there were 300 people protesting the war.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-15-2023, 06:30 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, I could say that the Jews do have less of a claim, as they abandoned the land while the Palestinians they displaced remained there. But this is also where my anti-colonialist ways tend to come to the forefront as my position on land claims is not really in line with western thinking, anyway. I don't see any of them really having a claim to the land.

Did they abandon it, or were they displaced?  I realize that there's a lot of different perceived necessities for why a people would migrate elsewhere, many of them would not be described as abandonment.

Quote:Well, that is the way it seems now. It is important to contextualize this by understanding that Jews lived in the region peacefully for a very long time. It wasn't until the movement to created a Jewish ethno-state, i.e. Zionism, started to be used to displace the population living there that widespread issues emerged. The view towards the Jewish people in the region comes from over a century of those efforts. We must understand the animosity in order to have any hope of putting an end to it.

We can understand it, sure.  But we have to realize we're dealing with the reality of today, not the situation around 100 years ago.  We all know why Israel was founded.  Can any of us really say that the formation of Israel wouldn't result in what's occurring now?  Because the hostilities were instantaneous, widespread and coordinated.

(11-16-2023, 10:26 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: https://www.foxnews.com/us/pro-palestinian-violent-protest-erupts-outside-dnc-headquarters-washington-dc-capitol-police-injured

Here we go, more violence versus peaceful protests. An estimated 300,000 protested antisemitism in D.C. Tuesday, all peaceful. 300 protested the war nd 6 police officers injured. Will those arrested get years in prison?

Pro-Palestinian violent protest erupts outside DNC headquarters in Washington DC, Capitol police injured
The U.S. Capitol Police said that six of their officers were injured during the protest

U.S. Capitol Police (USCP) said about 150 people were "illegally and violently protesting" near the DNC headquarters building in the Capitol Hill neighborhood of Washington.

Protesters told Fox News Digital that there were 300 people protesting the war.

I saw some of the footage, definitely a violent protest and every single person engaged in illegal activity that night should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Luvnit2]

Just read they arrested a 50 year college professor and pro Palestinian protester for manslaughter. He is accused of striking a 69 year old pro Israel man. A witness said he hit him with a bull horn in the face, the man fell to the pavement and later dies from brain injuries.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-16-2023, 03:43 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Just read they arrested a 50 year college professor and pro Palestinian protester for manslaughter. He is accused of striking a 69 year old pro Israel man. A witness said he hit him with a bull horn in the face, the man fell to the pavement and later dies from brain injuries.

Yeah, that occurred just north of here.  I wonder why this hasn't received more attention?

[*pally*]

(11-16-2023, 06:03 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yeah, that occurred just north of here.  I wonder why this hasn't received more attention?

The arrest?  or the death?  The death was headline news when it happened.  I saw the story of the arrest on multiple news sites.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-16-2023, 06:49 PM)pally Wrote: The arrest?  or the death?  The death was headline news when it happened.  I saw the story of the arrest on multiple news sites.

Well, both did.  The incident was in Thousand Oaks, which is just north of Los Angeles in Ventura County.  As for the arrest, I didn't see anything about it on the national sites; CNN, MSNBC, Fox, etc.