Huge Podesta Email regarding immigration in Germany

[Rotobeast]

There's just too much to go over and check, on my phone.
It looks like a colossal amalgam of rumblings we've been hearing.

I'm mainly dropping this here to get Matt's opinion (some stuff in German and whatnot), but all are welcome to chime in.

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/295#

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[Rotobeast]

Btw.... Orca100 is yet to be identified, so the relevance is debatable.
I was just thinking "dang, someone put a lot of effort into that".

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[Belsnickel]

That's a lengthy email. I don't have the time at the moment to look into the veracity of the information. I know in previous discussions I have had with Berliners they have not encountered any problems like what they talk about here, but it's hard to say. I may go looking at the links later.

Couple of things to keep in mind, though, that the Turkish population is rather large in Germany and has been for some years, so them being represented in high numbers is not going to be unusual. Also, the first link in there to a der Spiegel article, is almost a decade old.

I wouldn't have the time to fact check the whole thing, but I'm sure there is a mixture of truths, misleading statements, and outright inaccuracies in it. Which is the case with most things of this nature.

[Rotobeast]

(10-12-2016, 04:38 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: That's a lengthy email. I don't have the time at the moment to look into the veracity of the information. I know in previous discussions I have had with Berliners they have not encountered any problems like what they talk about here, but it's hard to say. I may go looking at the links later.

Couple of things to keep in mind, though, that the Turkish population is rather large in Germany and has been for some years, so them being represented in high numbers is not going to be unusual. Also, the first link in there to a der Spiegel article, is almost a decade old.

I wouldn't have the time to fact check the whole thing, but I'm sure there is a mixture of truths, misleading statements, and outright inaccuracies in it. Which is the case with most things of this nature.

I agree that it's probably contrived, but considering we used to discuss the topic heavily and it was included in the recent email release, I thought it might warrant a look.

I hope the identity of the sender is discovered soon.
That would put things into perspective.


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[Rotobeast]

Dear God, something just hit me....
Read this in Nigel Farage's voice.
I'm off to do some research.
I'm trying to find a link with him and Orca Telecom.

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[hollodero]

I read very shortly until the

"The German police admits that large immigrant areas of Berlin, Hamburg, the Ruhr Area, etc. have become police no-go areas, where criminals and extremists have free reign. Within no time at all, a lone police patrol car making a foray into Germany's ethnic war zones finds itself surrounded by a baying lynch mob, much like US soldiers in Baghdad at the height of the troubles"

part at the very beginning. That is utter nonsense. I then turned in one youtube video. Unsurprisingly the description was vastly exaggerated.

No one says all is beer and skittles, but these claims are just absurd.

[Belsnickel]

(10-13-2016, 03:30 AM)hollodero Wrote: I read very shortly until the

"The German police admits that large immigrant areas of Berlin, Hamburg, the Ruhr Area, etc. have become police no-go areas, where criminals and extremists have free reign. Within no time at all, a lone police patrol car making a foray into Germany's ethnic war zones finds itself surrounded by a baying lynch mob, much like US soldiers in Baghdad at the height of the troubles"

part at the very beginning. That is utter nonsense. I then turned in one youtube video. Unsurprisingly the description was vastly exaggerated.

No one says all is beer and skittles, but these claims are just absurd.

Yeah. I interact with people from all over Germany, including Berlin, on WhatsApp with relative frequency. One thing some Americans bring up are claims like those and they are always dismissed by the folks in Germany.

[BmorePat87]

I want more Tom DeLonge emails to him about aliens

[hollodero]

(10-13-2016, 07:50 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah. I interact with people from all over Germany, including Berlin, on WhatsApp with relative frequency. One thing some Americans bring up are claims like those and they are always dismissed by the folks in Germany.

Sad thing is how easily the right can bring these things even up and feed on them. Even though they are almost completely fictional.

People believe shit, it's absurd. And every one of them thinks he's so smart and gets it because he eats up what is fed to him. Utter right-wing nonsense they just don't bother questioning. 

And NO, it's not the same the other way round. That's just another lie.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(10-13-2016, 03:52 PM)hollodero Wrote: Sad thing is how easily the right can bring these things even up and feed on them. Even though they are almost completely fictional.

People believe shit, it's absurd. And every one of them thinks he's so smart and gets it because he eats up what is fed to him. Utter right-wing nonsense they just don't bother questioning. 

And NO, it's not the same the other way round. That's just another lie.

So tell me, was a 10 year old raped by an Iraqi immigrant in a public swimming pool in Vienna recently?

Is your country preparing to put up more fence line surrounding your border? Yet, you complain about us want to protect our borders.
Have you started approving stricter immigration laws?

Or is this all BS?

[hollodero]

(10-14-2016, 02:52 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: So tell me, was a 10 year old raped by an Iraqi immigrant in a public swimming pool in Vienna recently?

That is possible. No one said immigrants are all angels. Bad people are everywhere and in any ethnic group. If an American committed a crime like that here, we wouldn't start questioning all US-citizens within our borders.
Such single tragedies cannot influence the general policy of a country. If you think it should, you're just thinking too small to run a country. It's just reality.

(10-14-2016, 02:52 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Is your country preparing to put up more fence line surrounding your border? Yet, you complain about us want to protect our borders.

Yes, we do.*
I never said I was against protecting the borders. I never claimed (and explicitely said so) that we (you, us, any country) can just allow rampant immigration without restrictions. I'm not delusional, and you shouldn't assume.
Our situation is quite different from yours right now. We deal with a whole different wave of refugees. These are not Mexicans looking for a job at Walmart to get started. These are islamic refugees - you know, the kind you're so afraid of - in enormous numbers - and in honest need for our help to just live.
You think it's just like Mexico? Then you're wrong.

(10-14-2016, 02:52 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Have you started approving stricter immigration laws?

Well, of course we have. I do not see where you're getting with that.

*Plus, let me additionally state that I am not personally responsible for every decision the Austrian government makes. The situation is in many ways handled quite poorly, and I'm against some things happening here as well. Like this fence talk.

[Belsnickel]

Hollodero, the problem is that the argument here is, in the minds of some, black and white. Controlling immigration doesn't mean you don't want to accept refugees or that the reason is solely about their potential criminal threat. The drain on resources is, after all, a large issue. But, some people think there are only two choices: take them all or take none.

[Dill]

(10-14-2016, 11:57 PM)hollodero Wrote: If an American committed a crime like that here, we wouldn't start questioning all US-citizens within our borders.
Such single tragedies cannot influence the general policy of a country. If you think it should, you're just thinking too small to run a country. It's just reality.

LOL--Are you with us or the with terrorists, hollodero?  That's all I want to know!

[*wildcats forever*]

(10-15-2016, 05:36 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Hollodero, the problem is that the argument here is, in the minds of some, black and white. Controlling immigration doesn't mean you don't want to accept refugees or that the reason is solely about their potential criminal threat. The drain on resources is, after all, a large issue. But, some people think there are only two choices: take them all or take none.

I think another relevant issue is understanding the immigration laws and process. Plus which laws aren't being enforced and why. All I see being bandied about is 'reform' with no specific reference. To me it's just another political buzzword with little or no supporting detail. God knows I couldn't carry an intelligent discussion on it beyond a few minutes, if I'm lucky. 

[hollodero]

(10-15-2016, 07:45 PM)Dill Wrote: LOL--Are you with us or the with terrorists, hollodero?  That's all I want to know!

Now that of course immediately made me jump up and sing the star spangled banner. I need to let you know of course, don't want to alarm homeland security.

Envy you though. You at least can go Johnson when giving these choices.
I probably would go Norway. Since I can't, I take the decent choice. Ooh say can you see...

(10-15-2016, 05:36 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Hollodero, the problem is that the argument here is, in the minds of some, black and white. 

Yeah, no kidding.
Americans tend to see things that way. Analyze that for me :) How comes?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(10-14-2016, 11:57 PM)hollodero Wrote: That is possible. No one said immigrants are all angels. Bad people are everywhere and in any ethnic group. If an American committed a crime like that here, we wouldn't start questioning all US-citizens within our borders.
Such single tragedies cannot influence the general policy of a country. If you think it should, you're just thinking too small to run a country. It's just reality.


Yes, we do.*
I never said I was against protecting the borders. I never claimed (and explicitely said so) that we (you, us, any country) can just allow rampant immigration without restrictions. I'm not delusional, and you shouldn't assume.
Our situation is quite different from yours right now. We deal with a whole different wave of refugees. These are not Mexicans looking for a job at Walmart to get started. These are islamic refugees - you know, the kind you're so afraid of - in enormous numbers - and in honest need for our help to just live.
You think it's just like Mexico? Then you're wrong.


Well, of course we have. I do not see where you're getting with that.

*Plus, let me additionally state that I am not personally responsible for every decision the Austrian government makes. The situation is in many ways handled quite poorly, and I'm against some things happening here as well. Like this fence talk.

Why can't you answer the question with a yes or no, don't try to Hillary it.
Again, was a 10 year old raped by an Iraqi immigrant in a public swimming pool in Vienna recently?
Single tragedies add up. If they weren't a problem, then why the beefing up of the border and immigration laws? You're contradicting yourself there.

I never said all were bad, but when you have open borders you get more of all types rather than the ones you desire.

And you're right, we have a different waves of people coming over our borders, they are trafficking drugs and humans. There is also a bunch fleeing the war torn countries in Central America. So we have plenty of War Refugees as well, and yes, some just want to make a buck. You should read up on some stuff before you jump to conclusions about who we have coming thru our borders otherwise you are sounding a bit pompous.

(10-15-2016, 05:36 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Hollodero, the problem is that the argument here is, in the minds of some, black and white. Controlling immigration doesn't mean you don't want to accept refugees or that the reason is solely about their potential criminal threat. The drain on resources is, after all, a large issue. But, some people think there are only two choices: take them all or take none.

I certainly hope you are not trying to speak for me on this issue.
Then what's the problem with Trump wanting to put a hold on Immigration from the Middle East until we have a better Vetting system before allowing them to come here? Seems like a logical idea. Obama did it for Iraqi Refugee's.

(10-16-2016, 12:32 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah, no kidding.
Americans tend to see things that way. Analyze that for me :) How comes?

Rhetoric, and most don't understand the whole immigration system to begin with.

[Dill]

(10-16-2016, 02:31 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Why can't you answer the question with a yes or no, don't try to Hillary it.
Again, was a 10 year old raped by an Iraqi immigrant in a public swimming pool in Vienna recently?
Single tragedies add up. If they weren't a problem, then why the beefing up of the border and immigration laws? You're contradicting yourself there.

To "Hillary it" apparently means to avoid rushing to black and white judgments with little information or context.

A 10-year-old boy was raped by an Iraqi at a public swimming pool in Meidling, a suburb of Vienna, on December 2, 2015.

Breitbart.com was all over this two months after the fact, as was the UK's Daily Mail.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/02/05/ten-year-old-boy-brutally-raped-by-iraqi-migrant-at-pool-in-vienna/

The Breitbart article is followed by long commentaries, including Europeans claiming all the rapes in their countries are by non-white immigrants.

By Feb 9, 2016, the Frankfurter Allgemeine Newspaper ran an article on how, despite the fact the incident was reported in Austrian papers at the time,  in many internet forums it was being bandied about that the the incident had only recently (Feb 2016) come to light, therefore suggesting a conspiracy among police and media to suppress news about immigrant crimes. This is coupled with another apparent "crime"--a 26-year-old Syrian man who is married to a 13-year-old Syrian girl was sleeping with her in a refugee camp, and was arrested for "rape."  The point of the article is that since the New Year's incidents in Cologne, both in Germany and Austria there has has been a heightened tendency to report or claim or otherwise discuss refugee-related crimes in the public sphere.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/europa/fall-in-oesterreich-fluechtling-vergewaltigt-zehnjaehrigen-in-hallenbad-14061059.html

So now I am curious. How did you hear about this single rape which occurred 10 months ago in Austria , Mike? What is it's import for you?

Single tragedies are not usually the basis of policy decisions. When they are, it is usually a sign of panic and/or scapegoating
 

[GMDino]

(10-16-2016, 02:31 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Again, was a 10 year old raped by an Iraqi immigrant in a public swimming pool in Vienna recently?
Single tragedies add up. If they weren't a problem, then why the beefing up of the border and immigration laws? You're contradicting yourself there.

I never said all were bad, but when you have open borders you get  more of all types rather than the ones you desire.


Rhetoric, and most don't understand the whole immigration system to begin with.

You are combing two different things:

Rape.

Immigration.

Just because a country increase immigration laws doesn't have to mean it's because there was an immigrant who committed a rape.

Just like when a priest rapes a child it has little to do with whether gays can get married in the US.

But you got one thing dead on:

Quote:Rhetoric, and most don't understand the whole immigration system to begin with.

[Belsnickel]

(10-16-2016, 12:32 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah, no kidding.
Americans tend to see things that way. Analyze that for me :) How comes?

I wish I knew.

[hollodero]

(10-16-2016, 02:31 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Why can't you answer the question with a yes or no, don't try to Hillary it.

I said that is possible for I honestly could remember something about that, but not the whole story behind it. You could have taken it as a "yes" and none of my following words would have changed.

(10-16-2016, 02:31 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Again, was a 10 year old raped by an Iraqi immigrant in a public swimming pool in Vienna recently?

Yes! Jeez...

(10-16-2016, 02:31 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Single tragedies add up.

No in this case they don't. This is still a single incident and not part of any kind of pattern.
Don't be intellectually dishonest to yourself. You can't point to a single event and claim an "adding up" when there is no adding up.

(10-16-2016, 02:31 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: If they weren't a problem, then why the beefing up of the border and immigration laws? You're contradicting yourself there.

OK, buddy. The immigration laws have nothing to do with this incident - and if they had, I'd be furious. What kind of question is that? There are dozens of other, much more valid reasons for stricter immigration laws; that one Iraqi guy is none of them.

(10-16-2016, 02:31 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I never said all were bad, but when you have open borders you get  more of all types rather than the ones you desire.

Sure... and some, you assume, are good people. I get it.
It's not really about our "desire", though. In the case of asylum seekers, it's about our moral obligation. Which is, as a rich country, to help people who are fleeing death and destruction in their country.
Now of course - and I'm no "leftist" here - we also need to control immigration and can't just let any number of people in. We're not quite ready for an islamic population going over, let's say 10% (or something in that category).
There are other points to be made here, too. Some influx isn't always a bad thing. Muslims living in western countries could be a big contributor for better relations and understanding - and be it just that they testify we are not the devil and not bad people here. And we learn muslims aren't bad people, too. That's important. On the other hand there's the job market, expenses, social security and other aspects that speak for a capping of immigration. 

See it as some kind of beam balance. We put different factors on the balance and try to give each aspect the weight it deserves (like the things I mentioned). Then we see how the balance is inclined. You can make a case of putting that one iraqi on the balance, on the side of "stricter immigration". But if you attach a weight to that, it just has to be a very, very light one. If it isn't, it's not an honest evaluation.

That the right wing is feeding on stories like that is another thing. Here's why I do not really remember all the details of that particular story: The right wing forges and distorts so many stories, up to blatant lies. It's hard to keep track about waht is real and what is demagogy.
If Iraqis would actually rape little kids on a weekly basis, believe me, I would give that aspect much more weight immediately. It's just that every data shows that immigrants are not significantly more likely to commit a crime as Austrians. THAT is the important data here. Not the stories in the yellow press.

(10-16-2016, 02:31 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: And  you're right, we have a different waves of people coming over our borders, they are trafficking drugs and humans.

THAT is just hate speech.
Truth is, there are some people who do these deeds. The vast majority doesn't, and Mexican immigrants also are not significantly more likely to commit crimes than US citizens. Look here or google it, there are tons of scientific studies reaching that conclusion.

(10-16-2016, 02:31 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: There is also a bunch fleeing the war torn countries in Central America. So we have plenty of War Refugees as well, and yes, some just want to make a buck. You should read up on some stuff before you jump to conclusions about who we have coming thru our borders otherwise you are sounding a bit pompous.

War refugees are not the main issue at the Mexican border, right? Plus, you should actually feel compelled to help refugees, too. You really should, moral obligation and such, so what's the point?

(10-16-2016, 02:31 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Then what's the problem with Trump wanting to put a hold on Immigration from the Middle East until we have a better Vetting system before allowing them to come here? Seems like a logical idea. Obama did it for Iraqi Refugee's.

I have no general problem with that. But there is an acute crisis going on, that's a bit of a specific problem. We need to help these people quickly. And Europe does, it would be nice and fair if you took some of the responsibility here, too. It really would be.

(10-16-2016, 02:31 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Rhetoric, and most don't understand the whole immigration system to begin with.

Says the guy who claims 95% of illegal immigration could be stopped with a wall.
But sure, I'm no expert on this issue. Which is why I in many aspects believe those who are. You should give that a try.