Huge Podesta Email regarding immigration in Germany

[Mike M (the other one)]

(10-16-2016, 04:26 PM)Dill Wrote: To "Hillary it" apparently means to avoid rushing to black and white judgments with little information or context.

To "Hillary it" means you say a whole lot of nothing, to avoid answering the question.

(10-16-2016, 04:26 PM)Dill Wrote: A 10-year-old boy was raped by an Iraqi at a public swimming pool in Meidling, a suburb of Vienna, on December 2, 2015.

So now I am curious. How did you hear about this single rape which occurred 10 months ago in Austria , Mike? What is it's import for you?

Single tragedies are not usually the basis of policy decisions. When they are, it is usually a sign of panic and/or scapegoating
 

You are very correct sir, it was widely reported by the Right, and if you read the post I responded to, maybe you'll understand what he said about the Right.

(10-16-2016, 04:28 PM)GMDino Wrote: You are combing two different things:

Rape.

Immigration.

Just because a country increase immigration laws doesn't have to mean it's because there was an immigrant who committed a rape.

Just like when a priest rapes a child it has little to do with whether gays can get married in the US.

Sighs,
Please read my response to Dill's question.

(10-16-2016, 04:28 PM)GMDino Wrote: But you got one thing dead on:

And that is from both sides, neither group really understands the process.

(10-17-2016, 03:33 AM)hollodero Wrote: I said that is possible for I honestly could remember something about that, but not the whole story behind it. You could have taken it as a "yes" and none of my following words would have changed.


Yes! Jeez...


No in this case they don't. This is still a single incident and not part of any kind of pattern.
Don't be intellectually dishonest to yourself. You can't point to a single event and claim an "adding up" when there is no adding up.

Then why change your laws and beef up your borders if everything is hunky dory? You should be proudly showing the rest of world how much of a model country you are.

(10-17-2016, 03:33 AM)hollodero Wrote: OK, buddy. The immigration laws have nothing to do with this incident - and if they had, I'd be furious. What kind of question is that? There are dozens of other, much more valid reasons for stricter immigration laws; that one Iraqi guy is none of them.

How about the 9 more Iraqi refugees that just got arrested in August for raping a woman?
Or the Illegal Algerian Immigrant that stated in court he came here to "F*** the women?"
Or the 16 year old that managed to lure 2 women down to his basement with every intent to rape them (fortunately one got away and got the police there before he could rape the other one).
Or the one that forced the 13 year old to have sex with him for 3 months?
Or the 6 arrested from sexually assaulting women at a music festival?
American Nanny murdered by illegal immigrant?

None of those happened right?

(10-17-2016, 03:33 AM)hollodero Wrote: Sure... and some, you assume, are good people. I get it.
It's not really about our "desire", though. In the case of asylum seekers, it's about our moral obligation. Which is, as a rich country, to help people who are fleeing death and destruction in their country.

[quote='hollodero' pid='287567' dateline='1476686012']
Now of course - and I'm no "leftist" here - we also need to control immigration and can't just let any number of people in. We're not quite ready for an islamic population going over, let's say 10% (or something in that category).
There are other points to be made here, too. Some influx isn't always a bad thing. Muslims living in western countries could be a big contributor for better relations and understanding - and be it just that they testify we are not the devil and not bad people here. And we learn muslims aren't bad people, too. That's important. On the other hand there's the job market, expenses, social security and other aspects that speak for a capping of immigration. 

10% that sounds ....racist. Why not 100%, open your doors, open your borders, open your hearts, open your wallets. Isn't that what you keep telling us to do?

(10-17-2016, 03:33 AM)hollodero Wrote: See it as some kind of beam balance. We put different factors on the balance and try to give each aspect the weight it deserves (like the things I mentioned). Then we see how the balance is inclined. You can make a case of putting that one iraqi on the balance, on the side of "stricter immigration". But if you attach a weight to that, it just has to be a very, very light one. If it isn't, it's not an honest evaluation.

NO, I put a weight on every immigrant from that region. Many have very little education, struggle to fit into their new home country and in the end, and because they have a hard time fitting in, it makes them easy to be brainwashed by ISIS.

(10-17-2016, 03:33 AM)hollodero Wrote: That the right wing is feeding on stories like that is another thing. Here's why I do not really remember all the details of that particular story: The right wing forges and distorts so many stories, up to blatant lies. It's hard to keep track about waht is real and what is demagogy.

With every story there is a middle ground. You have to figure that out based on all sources. Ignoring 1 side completely is not being open-minded.

(10-17-2016, 03:33 AM)hollodero Wrote: If Iraqis would actually rape little kids on a weekly basis, believe me, I would give that aspect much more weight immediately. It's just that every data shows that immigrants are not significantly more likely to commit a crime as Austrians. THAT is the important data here. Not the stories in the yellow press.

Here's the data that you are ignoring, people that come from poverty and stay in poverty are more prone to commit crimes than those that don't.

(10-17-2016, 03:33 AM)hollodero Wrote: THAT is just hate speech.

Wow, talking about drugs and human trafficking coming over the Mexican border is now considered hate speech..
Have I not explained and posted links, showing that over 90% of all drugs that come into the US come from the US-Mexico border?
Guess what else comes with that? Human Trafficking. You probably don't hear about it much, but if a Cartel can find a way to make a buck, they will.

(10-17-2016, 03:33 AM)hollodero Wrote: Truth is, there are some people who do these deeds. The vast majority doesn't, and Mexican immigrants also are not significantly more likely to commit crimes than US citizens. Look here or google it, there are tons of scientific studies reaching that conclusion.

LOL the first problem with your report, is Mexican Immigrants, not illegal immigrants. Of course the legal immigrants are not going to commit crimes anymore than anyone else would. They came here the legal way.

(10-17-2016, 03:33 AM)hollodero Wrote: War refugees are not the main issue at the Mexican border, right? Plus, you should actually feel compelled to help refugees, too. You really should, moral obligation and such, so what's the point?

Popular to contrary belief, if you would read any of the links I have supplied, you would know that actual Mexicans do not make up as much of the border crossings as they used to.

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/understanding-central-american-refugee-crisis
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/27/us/politics/obama-refugees-central-america.html?_r=0

(10-17-2016, 03:33 AM)hollodero Wrote: I have no general problem with that. But there is an acute crisis going on, that's a bit of a specific problem. We need to help these people quickly. And Europe does, it would be nice and fair if you took some of the responsibility here, too. It really would be.

Fair? How many of the Mexicans/Central Americans in the last 20 years has your county taken in, since "fair" is obviously important to you.

(10-17-2016, 03:33 AM)hollodero Wrote: Says the guy who claims 95% of illegal immigration could be stopped with a wall.
But sure, I'm no expert on this issue. Which is why I in many aspects believe those who are. You should give that a try.

Says the guy that wants to limit Muslim Population to 10% in his own country....

You're right, we should leave it to the Professionals when talking about how effective a wall will be.
http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/this-stunning-chart-shows-how-trumps-border-wall-will-stop-illegal-immigration_03282016

There have been a lot of arguments put forth about Trump’s border wall idea.

Some say such a wall will do nothing to stem the tide of illegal immigrants crossing into the United States through our southern border. Others argue that the hundreds of miles of border can only be secured by a well constructed barrier.

The following chart from The Daily Caller should put any debate over the matter to rest.

The data is compiled from immigration statistics by the Hungarian Police and shows that not only does such a wall work, it begins working almost instantly.

Several European countries have erected fences to keep migrants out, and, according to the numbers, every case appears to have a large impact.
…
When the fence went up Oct. 17, the influx went down to 870 from 6,353 only a day earlier. Illegal border crossing were steadily below 40 per day throughout the rest of the month
____________________________________________

Wow.. 40/6353=0.63% per day. Hot dang, 99% effective. Than you Europe for giving us plenty of Models to base our numbers off of.
I take it, you'll leave it to the experts from this point forward right and stop mocking the wall.

[Dill]

(10-17-2016, 07:26 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: How about the 9 more Iraqi refugees that just got arrested in August for raping a woman?
Or the Illegal Algerian Immigrant that stated in court he came here to "F*** the women?"
Or the 16 year old that managed to lure 2 women down to his basement with every intent to rape them (fortunately one got away and got the police there before he could rape the other one).
Or the one that forced the 13 year old to have sex with him for 3 months?
Or the 6 arrested from sexually assaulting women at a music festival?
American Nanny murdered by illegal immigrant?.

Where is all this occurring? Got some links?  There were about 920 rape complaints in Austria in 2013 and 104 convictions. This was before the big influx of immigrants.  How much higher do you suppose the rate has climbed in 2014 and 2015? Maybe to 110?

Since following your posts I have discovered some websites in Europe that seem to be collecting rapes in the news and packaging the information into hate sites.   One is called "Rapefugees" and they even have a map of rapes and sex crimes by immigrants. http://www.rapefugees.net/start/

They claim to be non-partisan, just describing a problem that should not be left to the radical right, serving the public interest. Hollodero will cringe at the terrible English. These people are not social scientists.  http://www.rapefugees.net/tag/gruppenvergewaltigung-asylbewerber-abtenau-oesterreich/

This one is apparently set up in Switzerland, and begs people for further examples.
http://www.politikversagen.net/rubrik/vergewaltigung

Our very own Gatestone Institute ,I see, also has a German language version which helpfully "informs" people of the misdeeds of brown people in Europe. This May article describes a "rape epidemic" reaching Austria.  https://de.gatestoneinstitute.org/8054/migranten-vergewaltigungen-oesterreich

Looks like the point is to fuse hatred with bad social science to establish an international moral panic. This all may seem vaguely familiar to very old Germans.

What are some of the websites you find most informative, Mike?

[Dill]

(10-17-2016, 07:26 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: How about the 9 more Iraqi refugees that just got arrested in August for raping a woman?
Or the Illegal Algerian Immigrant that stated in court he came here to "F*** the women?"
Or the 16 year old that managed to lure 2 women down to his basement with every intent to rape them (fortunately one got away and got the police there before he could rape the other one).
Or the one that forced the 13 year old to have sex with him for 3 months?
Or the 6 arrested from sexually assaulting women at a music festival?
American Nanny murdered by illegal immigrant?

There is a similar problem with foreigners raping women on the opposite side of the world from Austria.  And it has a certain population up in arms and listing incidents and demanding the foreigners be expelled.

http://www.stripes.com/news/sailors-sentenced-for-gang-rape-in-case-that-sparked-curfew-1.210106

https://www.navytimes.com/story/military/crime/2016/07/15/sailor-navy-okinawa-rape/87117586/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/05/20/outrage-in-japan-as-american-arrested-in-connection-with-death-of-woman-on-okinawa/

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/05/21/national/crime-legal/okinawa-suspect-allegedly-admits-rape-woman-killing/#.WAVtc_6Qz5p

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/36354-okinawan-women-demand-us-forces-out-after-another-rape-and-murder

After the rape at a Naha hotel in March, another woman came forward to tell that she had become pregnant after being raped by a US soldier a year earlier. Parents also reported that their middle-school daughter had become pregnant after being raped, but that they had terminated the pregnancy without notifying police.

On May 20, the day after the suspect was arrested, 16 women's groups held a press conference and presented their written demand to both the Japanese and US governments to close the US bases.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/10/22/national/okinawa-rallies-reduced-base-burden-20-years-girls-rape/#.WAVs-_6Qz5o

[Mike M (the other one)]

(10-17-2016, 08:54 PM)Dill Wrote: Where is all this occurring? Got some links?  There were about 920 rape complaints in Austria in 2013 and 104 convictions. This was before the big influx of immigrants.  How much higher do you suppose the rate has climbed in 2014 and 2015? Maybe to 110?

Looks like the point is to fuse hatred with bad social science to establish an international moral panic. This all may seem vaguely familiar to very old Germans.

What are some of the websites you find most informative, Mike?

Nice, but I have never seen any of those before, and I have heard of Gate Stone Institute and I already know that they are heavily right biased so I make sure to take what they say with a grain of salt.

BUT That was not the point. I recall someone saying:

"Single tragedies are not usually the basis of policy decisions. When they are, it is usually a sign of panic and/or scapegoating"

I merely pointed out that even though I only listed 1 incident, that it was not just a "Single Tragedy". It was 1 of several "Single Tragedies" that happened over a period of time.

So we can agree now that several tragedies have contributed to Austria's decisions to start closing their borders and changing immigrant rules. I have never stated that it was the sole reason. So don't put those words in my mouth.

Can you post where you got your info on rapes from? I have not seen anything that current. Most current I have seen is 2010.

(10-17-2016, 09:43 PM)Dill Wrote: There is a similar problem with foreigners raping women on the opposite side of the world from Austria.  And it has a certain population up in arms and listing incidents and demanding the foreigners be expelled.


After the rape at a Naha hotel in March, another woman came forward to tell that she had become pregnant after being raped by a US soldier a year earlier. Parents also reported that their middle-school daughter had become pregnant after being raped, but that they had terminated the pregnancy without notifying police.

On May 20, the day after the suspect was arrested, 16 women's groups held a press conference and presented their written demand to both the Japanese and US governments to close the US bases.

And? You're going off on some tangent that doesn't have much to do with the OP or the point that I was trying to make.
It's up to Japan and the US Military to do what's best for both to prevent unnecessary animosity towards each other. Personally, I would shut it down.

[Dill]

(10-18-2016, 01:41 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: And? You're going off on some tangent that doesn't have much to do with the OP or the point that I was trying to make.
It's up to Japan and the US Military to do what's best for both to prevent unnecessary animosity towards each other. Personally, I would shut it down.

You see no analogy between serial American rapes and the local reaction against Americans in Japan, on the one hand,
and a handful of refugee rapes driving moral panic against Middle easterners in Europe, on the other?

A tangent of "individuals" creating individual tragedies in the former, while in the latter there is a valid connection between rape and massive fear of invading OTHERS?

100+ Bona fide Christian natural born Austrians are also raping other Austrians every year.
But you add a few incidents, or attempted incidents, to the rape of a boy last year, and appear ready to support the moral panic the radical right in the US and Europe is orchestrating at the moment

Austrian women and boys BEWARE?!?!  And Americans pay attention or we could be next?

Your few incidents stretched over two or three years may be statistically irrelevant to total Austrian rapes.

Here is the link for 2013 stats you asked for. Scroll down to P 5.   
"Vergewaltung" = rape.     "Anzeigen" = complaint.    "Verurteilung" = conviction.

http://www.frauennotrufe.at/cms/images/stories/ZAHLENDATENFAKTENzuSexuellerGewaltSeptember2014.pdf

I also saw a pdf with criminal stats from 2015, but the sex crime stats are not disaggregated.  Overall, crime has been dropping in Austria.  For all crimes: 35,000+ convictions in 2012 to 32,000+ in 2015.

Perhaps the arrival of all these mostly peaceful foreigners is skewing the stats downward?

[hollodero]

OK, Mr. other Mike M, you pin me to some extreme positions I never took, and that is not quite fair game. I did not claim everything was "honky donk", for example. But I'm tired of writing "I never said that", and it seems pointless to clarify or continue this line of debate. You seem enraged and in contradiction mood, but I am not up for that. I'm not for a wall, I'm for allowing Syrian refugees in, I call claims that German cities have turned into Baghdad at the height of the crisis awful lies; I tried to explai my reasoning, let's leave it at that for now. No novellas.

Let me instead just ask you two things I'm really curious about. Hope you don't Trump out of it.

First question.
You link to a site called shftplan.com. A site where I found claims that the US will use ISIS fighters to bring down Assad. Or, for heaven's sake, the Article "United Nations Soldier Says They Will Soon Occupy America: “Going Door-to-Door Taking Guns Or Shooting To Kill” .
I can't quite wrap my head around that.
You call the "regular" media biased, and fair enough, stay critical. But then you link to sites like these, where there is bias without any journalistic integrity. Doesn't that bother you? Using a source full of doomsday prognosis and dark conspiracies (and utter stupidity) as source to undermine your point?
Do you really think there is any credibility, any untold truth expected to be found on sites like that? A truth that politics, and the media, and experts, and scientists, fail to see or more likely keep secret from you?
And if so, I guess my question would be: why?
Because to me it always seems in some respect you want them to be credible. For it sure is not quite reasonable to do so without a certain will behind it.

Second question.
Concerning Syrian refugees. When I address the aspect that refugees are fleeing war and destruction and are in immediate need of help to survive - an aspect you always left out in your responses: Does that factor into your thoughts in any respect? Do you feel some empathy and maybe even some kind of moral obligation as a wealthy country to help fellow human beings?
Now I don't ask for quantities of help (I myself said repeatedly that I am all for capping immigration at some point). I just ask if it's a part of your thought process. 


And one clarification:

(10-17-2016, 07:26 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Wow, talking about drugs and human trafficking coming over the Mexican border is now considered hate speech.

No it isn't.

(10-16-2016, 02:31 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: And  you're right, we have a different waves of people coming over our borders, they are trafficking drugs and humans. 

THAT is.
There is an important difference.

And just to clarify, I didn't mean to call you hateful, just that some things you say might be considered hateful.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(10-18-2016, 04:35 PM)hollodero Wrote: Let me instead just ask you two things I'm really curious about. Hope you don't Trump out of it.

First question.
You link to a site called shftplan.com.

If you would've read the article, instead of other articles posted by then, then you would've noticed there were 2 links to other sites, one being where the raw data actually came from. instead, you wasted a lot of time trying to figure out the bias of the site.

"The data is compiled from immigration statistics by the Hungarian Police and shows that not only does such a wall work, it begins working almost instantly."

And the Hungarian Police Link takes us here where the actual data is derived from:
http://www.police.hu/hirek-es-informaciok/hatarinfo/elfogott-migransok-szama-lekerdezes?honap
It's in Hungarian, and it tells you the number of apprehended immigrants by day - and I didn't think most would appreciate that site.

or if you'd rather, follow the other link
http://dailycaller.com/2016/03/26/is-trump-wrong-about-a-border-wall-one-stunning-chart-has-the-answer/
gives another great example.

(10-18-2016, 04:35 PM)hollodero Wrote: Second question.
Concerning Syrian refugees. When I address the aspect that refugees are fleeing war and destruction and are in immediate need of help to survive - an aspect you always left out in your responses: Does that factor into your thoughts in any respect? Do you feel some empathy and maybe even some kind of moral obligation as a wealthy country to help fellow human beings?
Now I don't ask for quantities of help (I myself said repeatedly that I am all for capping immigration at some point). I just ask if it's a part of your thought process. 

No I do not factor that in anymore than you factor in the fact that we have our own war refugees showing up at the Mexican border, and large numbers of unaccompanied children. Are we supposed to turn them away so we can help the migrant problem in Europe?

We can't take them all in from both areas, so I'd rather help those in our own hemisphere first.

You know who you should be thanking for your migrant problems? Obama and Hillary, but oddly enough, you want us to elect Hillary to be POTUS? Why because she will just keep effing things up over there?

[Dill]

(10-18-2016, 07:48 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: If you would've read the article, instead of other articles posted by then, then you would've noticed there were 2 links to other sites, one being where the raw data actually came from. instead, you wasted a lot of time trying to figure out the bias of the site.

You know who you should be thanking for your migrant problems? Obama and Hillary, but oddly enough, you want us to elect Hillary to be POTUS? Why because she will just keep effing things up over there?

I rather agree with Hollodero's assessment of your site with the Hungarian stats. And the question is not whether the "raw data" are accurate, but rather the rush to believe the US border, with its very different circumstances, would be similarly manageable. What is the attraction of these hate sites, with their hysterical, simultaneous defense of racial and national boundaries?

Hillary did not break Iraq. She at least knows how government works and how to achieve long term diplomatic goals.
And the alternative to her is Trump, who cannot even organize a decent campaign, or prepare for a debate and remain focused during it. He has divided his own party and sent his own polls spiraling downward with his stunts.  Why wouldn't this guy break the executive from the inside, revoking previous, legal executive orders and attempting new, illegal ones, firing people he doesn't like, losing focus while pursuing personal vendettas, surrounding himself with opportunists who believe in conspiracy theories to function as his advisors, spurning experience, balance and competence in anything but reality tv drama?

[hollodero]

(10-18-2016, 07:48 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: If you would've read the article, instead of other articles posted by then, then you would've noticed there were 2 links to other sites, one being where the raw data actually came from. instead, you wasted a lot of time trying to figure out the bias of the site.

Not quite a lot of time, actually.

And there is no reading necessary, for I do not dispute that walls "work". We had a Berlin wall, and boy this one worked. I do not disagree that fences hinder Syrian refugees from entering, and I also never claimed a wall is totally ineffective. Of course it is somehow effective.
And of course much more so in Europe and regarding refugees, for we do not hand out visas to them so they could enter anyway (if we would, things would be quite different).
There's really no point to undermine.
And no article from right-wing hate sites ever will undermine a point.

I checked the links, one leads to yet another right-wing site (albeit being a little less doomsday focused, rather linking Hillary to organ trafficking and then some stuff) - and the other to an Hungarian chart I couldn't quite read for, well, it's in Hungarian. Again, the fence sure does work here, I didn't dispute that in the first place.

Now refugees try to cross the Mediterrean instead. And die trying in large numbers, a tragedy. One that does not bother you, obviously.

(10-18-2016, 07:48 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: No I do not factor that in anymore than you factor in the fact that we have our own war refugees showing up at the Mexican border, and large numbers of unaccompanied children. Are we supposed to turn them away so we can help the migrant problem in Europe?

No, please, grant them asylum, be decent and do not turn them away. You did some good with child refugees especially back in '14, there's no dispute. If there is a comparable wave of South American war refugees, please, we won't say any more then.
So let's just see if the numbers compare.

In FY 2015, 69,933 individuals arrived in the United States as refugees, according to data from the State Department’s Worldwide Refugee Admissions Processing System (WRAPS). This is very close to the number of refugees resettled in 2013 (69,926) and 2014 (69,987), but 20 percent higher than the 2012 total. Source.

- So 70.000 approx. in 2015, although there are reports that that number will sharply decrease in 2016. And btw. these are mostly not from your hemisphere.

In 2013 (there seems to be no more actual data) you granted 25.199 people asylum, so it's fair to assume 50% tops are admitted, just like in Europe.

So what about Europe?

Regarding 2015 alone: "Large numbers of refugees cross into the EU and by August there are 313,000 asylum applications across Europe. The largest numbers are recorded in Germany with over 89,000, and Sweden with over 62,000. More than 100,000 refugees cross into the EU in July,[100] and by September over 8,000 refugees cross daily. " (wikipedia)

Sweden had a total of 163.000 asylum applications in 2015. Germany had 442.000. Hungary over 150.000. Austria and Italy around 90.000, France over 50.000. Source.
In 2016 the number of asylum seekers is estimated to increase by 40%.

There are an estimated 4.8 million syrian refugees registered in March 2016. Up to right now, you took a whopping 14.473 Syrian refugees in altogether. Less than Belgium, Bulgaria, Armenia and a lot of other quite tiny countries.
Now sure, you can use your "we take care of other refugees" logic, it's just that the numbers don't really add up. When you compare bad to Sweden (less than 1/30 of US population) or my small country regarding total asylum applications, you can't quite make this case.

(10-18-2016, 07:48 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: You know who you should be thanking for your migrant problems? Obama and Hillary, but oddly enough, you want us to elect Hillary to be POTUS? Why because she will just keep effing things up over there?

Oh yes, I'm aware, I am not a Hillary fan. I have no reason to trust grabby Donald any more than her, though. No reason whatsoever.
But you're right, this Syria crisis to some part is your mess. It's not a partisan issue, you effed it up, George Bush did, Hillary and Obama (albeit to a lesser extent, but let's skip the details) kept doing it. And since it's an US mess (and not a "democratic" or "republican" mess), you as US might as well take at least some responsibility for that mess.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(10-18-2016, 04:07 PM)Dill Wrote: You see no analogy between serial American rapes and the local reaction against Americans in Japan, on the one hand,
and a handful of refugee rapes driving moral panic against Middle easterners in Europe, on the other?

A tangent of "individuals" creating individual tragedies in the former, while in the latter there is a valid connection between rape and massive fear of invading OTHERS?

100+ Bona fide Christian natural born Austrians are also raping other Austrians every year.
But you add a few incidents, or attempted incidents, to the rape of a boy last year, and appear ready to support the moral panic the radical right in the US and Europe is orchestrating at the moment

Austrian women and boys BEWARE?!?!  And Americans pay attention or we could be next?

Your few incidents stretched over two or three years may be statistically irrelevant to total Austrian rapes.

Here is the link for 2013 stats you asked for. Scroll down to P 5.   
"Vergewaltung" = rape.     "Anzeigen" = complaint.    "Verurteilung" = conviction.

http://www.frauennotrufe.at/cms/images/stories/ZAHLENDATENFAKTENzuSexuellerGewaltSeptember2014.pdf

I also saw a pdf with criminal stats from 2015, but the sex crime stats are not disaggregated.  Overall, crime has been dropping in Austria.  For all crimes: 35,000+ convictions in 2012 to 32,000+ in 2015.

Perhaps the arrival of all these mostly peaceful foreigners is skewing the stats downward?

Thanks for the site, I will check it out in my spare time.

Yes, the analogy is different, the US Military in Japan, they are legally there to do a job. They have a place to stay, food and money, once the job is done, they will return to the US. Once the Military and Japan work something out about the rapes, hopefully, that will be the end of it.

The Migrants have no job, no money and are waiting on the local government(s) to supply them with shelter, money and food, they will most likely not return to their home country once the war is over. In the meantime, what are they going to do for money?  Steal from the Locals?

How you can say these 2 sets of circumstances are the same is beyond me.

However, it is amusing that some Japanese want the Troops out, while some citizens of the countries where the migrants have made their home want them out as well. But I don't think that was your point.

Spare the rhetoric.

[Dill]

(10-19-2016, 02:31 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: The Migrants have no job, no money and are waiting on the local government(s) to supply them with shelter, money and food, they will most likely not return to their home country once the war is over. In the meantime, what are they going to do for money?  Steal from the Locals?

How you can say these 2 sets of circumstances are the same is beyond me.

However, it is amusing that some Japanese want the Troops out, while some citizens of the countries where the migrants have made their home want them out as well. But I don't think that was your point.

Spare the rhetoric.

I do think that was my point. (Perhaps I spared too much rhetoric?)

People in Austria, Germany, Norway, etc. are not filling their hate sites with stories about beaten down refugees receiving shelter, money and food.

They are, rather, all lathered up about hated foreign others touching their women and and boys and espousing a different religion.  They are not lathered up about their own rapists, statistically a much greater threat. 

The existence of these racially and culturally foreign bodies in the body of the nation is experienced as a violation by groups whose identity is based on conceptions of ethnic/national purity.

Many Japanese liberal feminists are upset over the perennial rape problem in Okinawa. For them, this is a human/civil rights issue. But Japanese also have their hardcore race nationalists, who don't give a fig about human rights, and what offends them, as with the European and American right (especially the alt right) is foreigners inside the border polluting their race and culture.

I am surprised that after WWII people still have difficulty recognizing the ideological form of fascism and the specific personality type to which it most appeals, with its promise to unify race and nation by forcibly expelling racial/cultural pollution, denigrating and humiliating the pollutants in every way possible in the process.




 

[THE Bigzoman]

(10-15-2016, 05:36 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Hollodero, the problem is that the argument here is, in the minds of some, black and white. Controlling immigration doesn't mean you don't want to accept refugees or that the reason is solely about their potential criminal threat. The drain on resources is, after all, a large issue. But, some people think there are only two choices: take them all or take none.

Why did Germany just open their arms nice and wide? Was it holocaust guilt? Was it virtue signaling?

[hollodero]

(10-27-2016, 10:24 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: Why did Germany just open their arms nice and wide? Was it holocaust guilt? Was it virtue signaling?

I'd say Merkel honestly felt it was the ethical thing to do. The situation in Hungary and elsewhere has gotten very grim for the refugees. And we could witness the distress on TV.

[Dill]

(10-27-2016, 10:24 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: Why did Germany just open their arms nice and wide? Was it holocaust guilt? Was it virtue signaling?

I'd be happy to accept some Syrian refugees as well, but I don't think it's because I feel guilty about slavery and segregation.

Since the costs of accepting all those refugees far outweigh the minimal benefit of appearing virtuous to a world that has largely forgotten WW2 and the Holocaust, I'd allow that a lot of Germans might have empathy for the suffering of others.