I Would Like to Talk (Civilly) About the Generalization of "White People"

[BmorePat87]

(09-28-2016, 02:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yep. Although you are not much for answering questions: when do you think we should start considering the U.S. a Nation?


I'd go with July 4th 1776.

I'm in agreement over the year, though I'd say the 2nd as the Second Continental Congress officially separated from England that day, though there's merit to the 4th as that's when we published it. 

Follow up question for anyone: Are the actions taken by the men in the Second Continental Congress and in the colonial (now State) legislatures wiped clean the moment we declared ourselves a sovereign nation? Can we claim any history prior to that point or be held responsible for the actions our founding fathers took while members of these legislative bodies?

[*bfine32*]

(09-28-2016, 02:58 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I'm in agreement over the year, though I'd say the 2nd as the Second Continental Congress officially separated from England that day, though there's merit to the 4th as that's when we published it. 

Follow up question for anyone: Are the actions taken by the men in the Second Continental Congress and in the colonial (now State) legislatures wiped clean the moment we declared ourselves a sovereign nation? Can we claim any history prior to that point or be held responsible for the actions our founding fathers took while members of these legislative bodies?

Regardless of the usual suspect trying to paint folks as racist, ect...We cannot wipe anything clean; we just cannot hold the United States of America responsible.

My follow up question for anyone: Can we say we hate this country because slavery was here before it was a country?

[BmorePat87]

(09-28-2016, 03:06 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Regardless of the usual suspect trying to paint folks as racist, ect...We cannot wipe anything clean; we just cannot hold the United States of America responsible.

My follow up question for anyone: Can we say we hate this country because slavery was here before it was a country?

I wouldn't say that, but I would say that we should hold our founding fathers responsible for everything that they did during colonial times. We can hold the US responsible for what it did after 1776. We can hold our founder fathers responsible for what they did. We can hold our early colonial and then state governments responsible for what they did. It would be silly to suggest that how the colonial governments, which turned into our state governments and sent us those who founded our first national legislative bodies, administered this area prior to 1776 isn't something we can hold against our history. It is a part of it.

I also am not one to get hung up on it, though. I'm not one to judge them with 2016 values. TJ was a great man for his time, the fact that he also owned slaves doesn't make him deplorable in my mind. However, anyone in 2016 who does would be judge differently by me. 

I can judge them for taking so long to end slavery when more than 20 other nations did it before us. 

[Wes Mantooth]

You know, the fact we've all spent this much time on this shows just convoluted and stupid it can get (not the subject matter or the points made, just the sheer volume of definition.

It really should be this simple: No one today, on this planet, is responsible for anyone's actions that lived prior to them. I can't control or change anything anyone did before I was born. It doesn't matter if it was the year before I was born, or 1,000 years ago. I did nothing, influenced nothing, controlled nothing, and was aware of absolutely nothing. The same goes for me, you and everybody.

I also have very little control or influence on what happens today outside of my own actions and the effects of my actions. Again, same goes for me, you and everybody.

Just from these two simple, yet obvious statements you should be able to surmise one key thing. The best way to judge someone, or gauge their responsibility for something, is by their own actions. You really can't judge anyone for something they didn't do, or they didn't affect.

So if I didn't do it, if I can't control it, if no one from my family did it, you're really reaching for to take more responsibility for it. I don't have to approach it with any different view than a Muslim, or Puerto Rican, or Budhist Monk. I'm an outsider, as much any other outsider. The only reason you could call for anything differently is because some people share the same skin color. That is the definition of racism.

And I mean, then of course you're going to tell me this all about white privilege even though the woman that sparked the thread clearly accused a random strange of having slave owner ancestors and ancestors who murdered Indians.

I think many don't consider the fact that while some white's were granted numerous privileges throughout history, not all whites were. Some may have monetarily benefited the family for generations, allowing for all sorts of advantages. No doubt, that's a privilege and they are white. But that's different than saying all whites have an inherit economic advantage. The legacy families, the Andy Bernard's of the world, yeah. They were born into some privilege. And some of that was a direct result of slavery, either by being a slave owner, descending from them, or just being here whe it influences the economy.

But a lot of white people weren't born into money, or automatic acceptances in Ivy League schools. They're not gifted a company or used nepotism to fast track their way to a cushy job. Plenty are born poor, and plenty have earned every single thing they have. Some against all odds.

To imply they benefit from white privilege is unfair and incredibly dismissive of their efforts. It's stupid. If there is no actual monetary gain, or advantage then what are they any more privileged about. Are you telling me some white kids don't go to some bad schools just like some black kids go to bad schools? Are you telling me, in today's world, all whites actually have an easier time getting into a University, or into a job or program? Today? In 2016?

Wheres the advantage? Where's this privilege for all? Are we talking about something outside of economics, and education? Perhaps social privileges? You may have some points there. And it can make for good discussion. But look how long I've spent just trying to say that: Hey, I wasn't part of it, a lot of whites weren't part of it. My family wasn't and others' families weren't either. I wasn't born into money, a lot of whites weren't born into money. I wasn't gifted a job, a lot of whites weren't gifted a job. Plenty of white people have access to equal or lesser schooling than plenty minorities. It spans across the races."

This idea of white privilege is so overstated and such a waste of time. The fact of the matter is, the more we all talk about race the more racist we all get. Everyone. You can't get over the differences in people if you won't stop talking about the differences in people. Judge people on their own actions and character. THE END.

[Wes Mantooth]

I mean, if we were to really discuss privileges, and this based only what you were given, they we should focus the most on the difference in privilege between good looking people and those who are unattractive and/or the intelligent and unintelligent.

Do you know how many advantages really good looking people have? Do you know how many disadvantages unattractive people have? Same goes for intelligence. There is a huge difference. HUGE.

Social status, jobs, income, etc. All of these are affected by one's looks and intelligence. Some are born into immense privilege. Being handed a combination of them can result in a winning lottery ticket, or a lump of coal.

I mean, if you were really bringing things into play that people didn't earn, or that were gifted with, why don't we spend more time on this? This spans across all races and nationalities. Good looking people and smart people are more privileged than those who are neither. Fact.

Is this where we are headed?

[Millhouse]

(09-28-2016, 03:20 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: You know, the fact we've all spent this much time on this shows just convoluted and stupid it can get (not the subject matter or the points made, just the sheer volume of definition.

It really should be this simple: No one today, on this planet, is responsible for anyone's actions that lived prior to them.  I can't control or change anything anyone did before I was born.  It doesn't matter if it was the year before I was born, or 1,000 years ago.  I did nothing, influenced nothing, controlled nothing, and was aware of absolutely nothing.  The same goes for me, you and everybody.

Apparently some U.N appointed experts think otherwise, as they think the U.S. should pay reparations to descendants of some kind. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/should-us-pay-reparations-for-slavery-united-nations-working-groups-think-so/

My response to them is to go **** off, and help some hungry kid somewhere as that is what they are pretty much good for anyways. They dont mention Europeans should also pay, which is convenient considering all this racist bullshit in the western hemisphere started with them to begin with.

So I agree, we shouldnt be held accountable for the actions of Europeans and Americans from 150 to 500 years ago. Besides  it was the Civil War that the ultimate price for slavery was paid, which was thousands of blood stained fields.

[*bfine32*]

(09-28-2016, 11:09 AM)Bmoreblitz Wrote: Nobody tells Jewish descendants to "get over" the holocaust.

Do you think Jewish folks should blame it on Modern day Germany?

[GMDino]

(09-28-2016, 03:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do you think Jewish folks should blame it on Modern day Germany?

I know you hate answering a question with a question but....


Do you think they'd continue to complain if there was a sense that Jews were still being discriminated against?



(He ask knowing he won't be answered...  )

[SunsetBengal]

I'm betting this is a damn good thread. Can't wait 'til I have time to read all the posts, before adding my opinion.

[GMDino]

(09-28-2016, 05:29 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm betting this is a damn good thread.  Can't wait 'til I have time to read all the posts, before adding my opinion.

Just tell everyone you have a black friend and your family never owned slaves in your lifetime.  

[Bmoreblitz]

(09-28-2016, 03:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do you think Jewish folks should blame it on Modern day Germany?

Do you think Modern day Germany says stop complaining, stop living in the past, stop playing the victim, stop trying to take advantage of people’s guilt for their own ends. It is Ancient History, it has Absolutely Nothing To Do With The Present. No one alive took part in it. “My family never killed any Jews!” And so on?

[SunsetBengal]

(09-28-2016, 05:45 PM)GMDino Wrote: Just tell everyone you have a black friend and your family never owned slaves in your lifetime.  

Well, it is true that my family first came to America in the early 1800's, and took up life as farmers, in what is now known as Seneca Co. Ohio.  Pretty sure that they never owned any slaves, but if you ask any farm kid, they'll tell you that life ain't much different..

[jmccracky]

(09-28-2016, 05:29 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm betting this is a damn good thread.  Can't wait 'til I have time to read all the posts, before adding my opinion.

Me too. I read a couple of things that Wes has said and a few others (Dino, etc), and it seems like a decent discussion. 

[Shake n Blake]

(09-27-2016, 09:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Who lived here before the country was founded and who lived here after it was founded?

Same people, right?

Slavery was "inherited" from the Bristish, so it's hard to fault "American's" still living under British rule for following British traditions and laws. Look at it this way...the Brits had slavery for hundreds of years. They then brought that to America, where it continued - under British rule - for roughly 150 more years. It only took America - as a sovereign nation - 80 years to abolish it. 

Maybe instead of guilt trips, we should celebrate the folks who helped finally put an end to such a dark era? Yay America?

(09-28-2016, 11:09 AM)Bmoreblitz Wrote: Nobody tells Jewish descendants to "get over" the holocaust.

Nobody tells modern Germans to feel guilty for the actions of previous generations.

[*bfine32*]

(09-28-2016, 05:52 PM)Bmoreblitz Wrote: Do you think Modern day Germany says stop complaining, stop living in the past, stop playing the victim, stop trying to take advantage of people’s guilt for their own ends. It is Ancient History, it has Absolutely Nothing To Do With The Present. No one alive took part in it. “My family never killed any Jews!” And so on?

Let's try this: You answer my question(s) and then pose your own.

Never mind, that never works; I'll just answer yours:

It depends on the context in which it is presented. For instance if someone were to say you owe me because your ancestors killed my ancestors I would tell them it is a terrible blight on history and man were influenced by an evil mad-man, but I do not owe you anything and it is your choice if you want to dwell on it, just understand that your point of view is rearward focused instead of forward focused.

[Bmoreblitz]

(09-28-2016, 09:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Nobody tells modern Germans to feel guilty for the actions of previous generations.

Uhhhhh.....yes they do.
Also maybe because many of those are still alive.

[GMDino]

(09-28-2016, 10:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Let's try this: You answer my question(s) and then pose your own.

Never mind, that never works; I'll just answer yours:

I wonder how many times you didn't answer anything but just asked a question or answered a question with a question?

(09-26-2016, 02:18 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You're new here aren't you?

(09-27-2016, 02:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: When was this country founded?

(09-28-2016, 03:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do you think Jewish folks should blame it on Modern day Germany?

Just.  This.  Thread.



Now stop being a hypocrite.  

[GMDino]

(09-28-2016, 09:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Slavery was "inherited" from the Bristish, so it's hard to fault "American's" still living under British rule for following British traditions and laws. Look at it this way...the Brits had slavery for hundreds of years. They then brought that to America, where it continued - under British rule - for roughly 150 more years. It only took America - as a sovereign nation - 80 years to abolish it. 

Maybe instead of guilt trips, we should celebrate the folks who helped finally put an end to such a dark era? Yay America?


Nobody tells modern Germans to feel guilty for the actions of previous generations.

So your take is that the newly minted Americans hated British rule but loved all that British stuff like having slaves.

Then I would propose it was the people (Americans) that bear the fault not the British government forcing them to have slaves.

Also, yes...Germany is still made to feel guilty about the holocaust.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-28-2016, 10:55 PM)GMDino Wrote: So your take is that the newly minted Americans hated British rule but loved all that British stuff like having slaves.

Then I would propose it was the people (Americans) that bear the fault not the British government forcing them to have slaves.

Also, yes...Germany is still made to feel guilty about the holocaust.

Will they 80 years from now. though?

Even if so, should they?

When's the last time you told a Japanese person they were racist because of the Rape of Nanking, Bataan Death March, or Pearl Harbor?
When's the last time you told a British person to go F themselves because their ancestors pressed thousands of US sailors into the Royal Navy, helping prompt the War of 1812?


Sometimes you just gotta get over it. Otherwise you can never move on.

[GMDino]

(09-28-2016, 11:26 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Will they 80 years from now. though?

Even if so, should they?

When's the last time you told a Japanese person they were racist because of the Rape of Nanking, Bataan Death March, or Pearl Harbor?
When's the last time you told a British person to go F themselves because their ancestors pressed thousands of US sailors into the Royal Navy, helping prompt the War of 1812?


Sometimes you just gotta get over it. Otherwise you can never move on.

I didn't say I did it.  I said it does happen.  But I am not Japanese, nor Jewish.  I am German, but my relatives came to America circa 1879 so no slaves and no Nazi's. 

I'd also say "getting over it" doesn't mean you forget about it or act like it never happened.

But while we're at it:

How about Americans get over 9/11?  I mean GEEZE!  It was 15 years ago!  And its not like every Arab person was in on it When are they going to move on and quit demanding "revenge"?!?!  And now they want to SUE other countries over it?!?!  What a bunch of losers.

How about the south gets over losing the Civil War? 
How about religious people get over gay marriage?