I Would Like to Talk (Civilly) About the Generalization of "White People"

[Wes Mantooth]

Reparations may be the most ridiculous subject of all. It's as simply explained as stupid as the proposed minimum wages increases are .

Look, I don't consider myself all that smart. I have the ACT and SAT scores, and the 2.4 college GPA to prove it. My income somewhat supports this as well. Einstein I am not. So I feel like things that are easily understood by me should be easily understood my most. And if they're not easily understood, they should be understood regardless. When someone takes the time or even if they have someone break it down for them, it should be ever apparent that the idea of reparations is not only foolish but counterproductive to making this country any more color blind. Some questions:

1.) Who would pay them? Specifically.

Would it just be Americans, and if so why exactly. African slaves made it all over Europe. Hell, they probably made it to every continent but one. Africa itself, as a country, or some select population, surely is responsible as well are they not?

So I'm not sure why (some of) the American people would be the only ones on the hook. Because if they were, the need to have them and the action of awarding them wouldn't be based on actual responsibility.

But let's just assume, yeah, (some) Americans are responsible for reparations. Let's dig deeper...

2.) Of Americans, because somehow the rest of the world shares no blame, who pays out?

Is it just all white people? How is that fair? Again, what about people who immigrated here after the fact? What about who people immigrated here in the last 20 years? Do they have pay into it because just they're "white"? How would you define those who need to either be taxed or charged for this payout?

Really think about this, it's already all sorts of convoluted. How are you really going to decide who is responsible for them? Because it starting to sound as unfair as sticking America with the bill alone.

3.) Of the people you've now decided need to pay, how much do they pay? Is it a flat amount, the same goes for everyone? Is it a sliding scale based on income? Is it somehow based on your genealogy? Is their a way that someone who descends from old, old, old, olddddd money pays more than some poor "white" schmuck that immigrated here the 1980's.

4.) Who gets them? Is it all African-Americans? And how much do they get? Is it all equal? Could that too be dependent on income, and there's a sliding scale. And much like the questions posed before, does genealogy count for anything. Would an "African-American" family that's been here longer get more than a someone immigrated here much later on?

And what about African immigrates that recently immigrated here? Do they get anything? Does everyone involved do their due diligence to insure that people like recent African, Jamaican and Haitian immigrants don't get paid out?

I mean, do you know how many can simply check off "African-American" on a box? We'd see some Dominican-Americans attempting to cash in, I guarantee it. So who is going to figure all this out? A 10,000 person team with a premium Ancestory.com account?

5.) What about people who are bi-racial? Do they get reparations? I mean, they should right? But then again, you could argue that they pay out too? Does the black side of them trump the white side of them, or is it the other way around? Is it neither? Do they just get stuck in the middle? Pay nothing, get nothing.

What about mixed couples? Does the husband get taxed at a different rate than the wife? Does the husband send off a lump sum check, only to see the wife receive a lump sum check in the mail? Kinda a wash there is it not? That white guy didn't really have to pay anything, while that black lady didn't get her fare share. That doesn't make sense either?

6.) How would go about collecting them? Taxes? Would you be required to pay immediately or would you have time? What happens if you can't pay anything? Are you off the hook forever, or is it like student loan debt that never dies?

7.) How do you go about making sure people don't abuse the system? We can't even put rules and regulations to prevent food stamp fraud. How can we insure the money is getting to the appropriate people? Also, how can we insure everyone is paying their fair share?

8.) What's the statue of limitations on these types of things? Is 300 years? 400? 500? 2000 years? What's the magic number? Can other countries and nationalities start attempting to collect money from their own atrocious history? People could make the case the world over for reparations. And if you argue, no, only current living African-Americans can then why is that? Tell me.

9.) This government could barely build a working health care website. It takes years to fix sections of highways, and decades to fix our bridges. How in the hell are they going to manage figure all of this out? It would be impossible. We all know how much red-tape there is, how many loopholes there are, how many ways to abuse the system there are. There is simply no way they could even execute something like this in a fair and equal manner, in any amount of time that would be deemed appropriate.

It would take years and years, and years. And you end with a whole clusterfrack of people who were either unfairly punished or rewarded.
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It's a waste of time to discuss. There is no fair way to do it, there is no clear right way to award it or charge it. There is no reason that this is our country alone's burden to bare. And even assuming you want to ignore of all that, it's simply not feasible. It can't be done. And even if it could (it can't) it would only hurt race relations even more.

You can either debate and waste time on the subject of reparations, only creating more ill-will and unrealistic demands, or you can simply realize it's not worth it, and move on to a worthwhile topic.

Calling for and demanding reparations is almost like asking someone what needs to be done to fix something (your wife, your boss, your client, etc.) and them replying that you need to fly to Pluto back. In no way is it a realistic demand, and it doesn't nothing to address or fix the problem. It only suggest that the person you're trying to appease is irrational. Like I said, you don't have to be a genius to understand this stuff.

[THE Bigzoman]

(09-28-2016, 11:09 AM)Bmoreblitz Wrote: Nobody tells Jewish descendants to "get over" the holocaust.

They do when Isreal tries to use it as a shield from criticism when they're blatently being dicks.


Similar things happen to blacks when they pull the race card or "dindu nuffin" outrage.

[THE Bigzoman]

(09-28-2016, 11:26 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote:
Will they 80 years from now. though?

Even if so, should they?

When's the last time you told a Japanese person they were racist because of the Rape of Nanking, Bataan Death March, or Pearl Harbor?
When's the last time you told a British person to go F themselves because their ancestors pressed thousands of US sailors into the Royal Navy, helping prompt the War of 1812?


Sometimes you just gotta get over it. Otherwise you can never move on.

I hope not.

Germans shouldn't be made to feel bad about Hitler. Any other nation going through the postwar economic nightmare Germany was going through prior to WW2 probably would've done the same. Shitting on the german people for bringing HItler to power (and let's be honest, he wasn't very direct on everything he was going to do) ignores the historical context that gave rise to him in the first place.


The blame, IMO, lies solely on those responsible for drafting the Treaty of Versaillis following WWI. 

But I actually put more thought into things than "**** you Germans"

[*bfine32*]

(09-28-2016, 10:53 PM)GMDino Wrote:

I wonder how many times you didn't answer anything but just asked a question or answered a question with a question?







Just.  This.  Thread.



Now stop being a hypocrite.  

None of the posts you quoted were a response to a question asked of me. They were simply questions that I posed.

If you wish to keep embarrassing yourself by obsessing with the gotcha game; please continue. 

[THE Bigzoman]

(09-26-2016, 09:27 PM)Millhouse Wrote: People like to say that slavery was America's great sin of the past. Yes it was a sin. But it was an imported sin from the Europeans. Those bastards were the ones that originated all of it from the get go. Spain, England, France, Dutch, and others all originated the slave trade to the Americas from the 1500's to 1700s. And it was the European racist mentality that got ingrained into the American landscape for generations to come as we are still feeling the after effects from centuries ago. So thank the Europeans for all this racist bull**** we see today, cause they were the ones that started it all.

So that said, imagine if the Euros werent racist at the extreme levels, and if Africans werent brought over here against their will. Would the Africans have built up their nations better than what we have seen? Maybe, but hard to say. Certainly not all of African countries would be a first world country, as I dont think even one exists on that continent. So basically I agree with you, that black citizens over here definitely benefit from their ancestors misfortunes at the hands of Europeans, otherwise they could very well be living in Africa, for better or for probably worse.

Europe benefited geographically from being at the center of everything, so they were able to incorporate ideas and trade from all over. A really really breif summary, but it nails it on the head.

When you look at the big picture historically, Europe was also more open to newer ideas; their institutions resisted change less than everyone elses'.

So in short, no. Non-European countries wouldn't have advanced past Europe if there were no slavery. By the time Europeans interacted with other groups of people they were already way ahead of the curve because of the reasons I listed.

[Bmoreblitz]

(09-28-2016, 11:33 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Reparations may be the most ridiculous subject of all.



1.) Who would pay them? Specifically.

Would it just be Americans, and if so why exactly. Hell, they probably made it to every continent but one. Africa itself, as a country.

Damn I didn't know Africa was a country. I thought it was a continent made up of about 54 countries.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-28-2016, 10:49 PM)Bmoreblitz Wrote: Uhhhhh.....yes they do.
Also maybe because many of those  are still alive.

No, they don't. My father-in-law lives in Germany and says it's not a huge issue over there. Certainly not like slavery is here the state's.

(09-28-2016, 10:55 PM)GMDino Wrote: So your take is that the newly minted Americans hated British rule but loved all that British stuff like having slaves.

Then I would propose it was the people (Americans) that bear the fault not the British government forcing them to have slaves.

Also, yes...Germany is still made to feel guilty about the holocaust.

No. My take is that it took some time for America to find it's footing as a country and establish it's own identity, morals and laws. 80 years isn't a long time in the grand scope of things.

[THE Bigzoman]

(09-29-2016, 01:22 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: No, they don't. My father-in-law lives in Germany and says it's not a huge issue over there. Certainly not like slavery is here the state's.


No. My take is that it took some time for America to find it's footing as a country and establish it's own identity, morals and laws. 80 years isn't a long time in the grand scope of things.

This makes no sense.

The U.S never branched too far from the UK in morals/laws. The U.S still practices common law, and a lot of "American"ideals were just reworded versions of british ideas (Liberty, the enlightenment, the whole shebang etc).

[Shake n Blake]

(09-29-2016, 01:33 AM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: This makes no sense.

The U.S never branched too far from the UK in morals/laws. The U.S still practices common law, and a lot of "American"ideals were just reworded versions of british ideas (Liberty, the enlightenment, the whole shebang etc).

Did the UK have city/state/federal government's? Heck, they were still ruled by royalty when we broke off from them. I'd say there was quite of bit of difference eventually, and I'm sure there was much to sort out for a brand new country. It's honestly ignorant to think otherwise.

And like I said, 80 years wasn't a long time in the grand scope of things. Especially for a new country that was still adding states and sorting out many things. Taxation, this new thing called "freedom", a system of government that had major differences, etc etc. Eventually, slavery was handled. It didn't take very long.

[THE Bigzoman]

(09-29-2016, 01:48 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Did the UK have city/state/federal government's? Heck, they were still ruled by royalty when we broke off from them. I'd say there was quite of bit of difference eventually, and I'm sure there was much to sort out for a brand new country. It's honestly ignorant to think otherwise.

And like I said, 80 years wasn't a long time in the grand scope of things. Especially for a new country that was still adding states and sorting out many things. Taxation, this new thing called "freedom", a system of government that had major differences, etc etc. Eventually, slavery was handled. It didn't take very long.

They still lived under a king, but his power was limited relative to other European Kingdoms by Parliment.  The British almost always loved individual liberty, even to the point to where they started limiting the monarchy's power sooner than other European kingdoms. (The Magna Carta, for example).

I have to stress again how wrong the idea is that the U.S has a different law/moral identity from the British. The fact that the U.S still uses common law doctrine to this day shits all over that claim.

[THE Bigzoman]

(09-28-2016, 12:03 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Francesca Ramsey (sp?) from MTV's Decoded series. She says that blacks (and other minorities) can be "prejudiced" but she has said they can't be racist. There are others that I've seen in various YouTube videos as well as various "news" shows that feature both sides of an issue as well as with some people in my community.

Basically, it boils down to them changing the definition of "racist". To these idiots, they basically attribute the definition of oppression as the definition of racism. They say that they can't be racist because a racist is someone who has power and authority behind them. It's moronic, but there are MANY who believe this

What you're describing is some SJW BS striaght out of the deepest dungeons of social sciences/academia. It's a cultural marxist spin on the definition of racism, and they're trying to make it true by repeating it again and again. 

[GMDino]

(09-29-2016, 01:48 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Did the UK have city/state/federal government's? Heck, they were still ruled by royalty when we broke off from them. I'd say there was quite of bit of difference eventually, and I'm sure there was much to sort out for a brand new country. It's honestly ignorant to think otherwise.

And like I said, 80 years wasn't a long time in the grand scope of things. Especially for a new country that was still adding states and sorting out many things. Taxation, this new thing called "freedom", a system of government that had major differences, etc etc. Eventually, slavery was handled. It didn't take very long.

It took almost century for a group of men who demanded they no longer be under the rule of another country to decide that all the people who were bought and sold as property should be freed.

If it took longer than 10 seconds to realize now that they were no longer a British colony they could let ALL people be free it was too long.

They understood the concept of "freedom".  They also understood how to make a buck.

[Bmoreblitz]

(09-29-2016, 01:22 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: No, they don't. My father-in-law lives in Germany and says it's not a huge issue over there. Certainly not like slavery is here the state's.


No. My take is that it took some time for America to find it's footing as a country and establish it's own identity, morals and laws. 80 years isn't a long time in the grand scope of things.

Nah for real they do.... I've lived there for over 6 years. They really walk on egg shells there

[*michaelsean*]

(09-29-2016, 10:45 AM)Bmoreblitz Wrote: Nah for real they do.... I've lived there for over 6 years. They really walk on egg shells there

So can I go over there and get in their face, and they will just bow their heads in shame?  That might be fun.

[fredtoast]

(09-28-2016, 12:59 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: What kinda power they talking?  Skulls and crossbones type of shat?  The Illuminati?  

No.  They are simply talking about how white people control a highly disproportionate amount of high level jobs and elected positions that give them power.

Elected officials make the laws and enforce the policies that control this country.   Businessmen make the decisions that determine who controls the wealth in this country.

Since blacks a hold a disproportionately small percentage of these top positions they do not have the power to oppress the majority.

[fredtoast]

(09-28-2016, 12:51 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Yes, I've seen this thinking a whole bunch.  I think it's a pretty commonly held belief.  So common in fact that I'm sure it's taught in any number of universities, from all across the country. 

I think it is ridiculous to get so upset over semantics.

I disagree with defining "racist" strictly as "oppressive", but to me the semantics really don't matter as much as the underlying truth in the statement that minorities can be racists but not oppressive.  

And, honestly, most minorities admit that minorities are also racists.  Maybe you guys need a deeper exposure to minorities.  They are not all like the radicals that dominate the media.

[fredtoast]

(09-28-2016, 03:20 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This idea of white privilege is so overstated and such a waste of time. 

No it isn't.  It is very real.  And you can't tell minorities they can't complain about racial profiling just because you never did it.

The white race has benefited greatly from the color of their skin, and that continues today.  The fact that some white people have failed does not mean that there is not a big white privilege in this country.  

Here is a perfect example from my own life.  I went to college in Knoxville less than 30 years ago.  When the University of Tennessee hired Wade Houston as the first black head basketball coach in the SEC the Cherokee Country Club who had provided a membership to every head coach of every sport at the University for decades, refused to offer him a membership because they did not allow black members.  This was not a bunch of ignorant red necks with rebel flags on their pick up trucks.  This was the power elite of Knoxville who controlled business decisions on hiring, promotions, business contracts.  Basically they controlled the economy of Knoxville and they were all such huge racists that they would not allow a wealthy, successful, college educated man join their social club just because of the color of his skin.

Now, if you are going to argue that there is on evidence that these racists were racists in their business dealings then I am not even going to respond.  Everyone knows that in the city of Knoxville white people had an advantage when applying for a job, trying to get a promotion, trying to borrow money, trying to gets contracts to supply or work with the larger businesses, etc etc.  All of these advantages increase wealth.  And because of this increased wealth the children of these people went to better schools, had access to more education resources (computers, tutors, summer camps), and continued to have more connections to people who can get them better jobs.

And this was not just isolated in Knoxville.  For example I know that Augusta National Country Club (where they play The Masters) did not have a white member until the early 90's.  I am pretty sure that most of the elite country clubs across the south reflected the deep racist beliefs held by the white power elite.

Racial profiling by law enforcement also continues to have a strong economic impact on the minority community.  I'll admit that the African american community has a problem with violent crime, but that does not justify racial profiling.  That is another argument that I would appreciate you keeping out of this thread.  

Racial profiling by law enforcement has been proven and even admitted to.  It is not a myth, and it does not just take place in bad neighborhoods.  And because of racial profiling many more minorities are charged with drug possession even though the same percentage of white people use illegal drugs as blacks.  The criminal justice system is a huge money sponge, and people with criminal charges have harder time getting decent jobs.  So the minority community is having more money and jobs being sucked away due to racial profiling.  This leads to more kids with fewer education resources which makes it harder for the community to compete.

So you can stomp your feet and cry all you want about how some white people still failed, but the fact is that the white race continues to reap the benefits of institutional systematic racism.  Minorities have made some great strides over the last 50 years, but that does not mean everything is suddenly equal.

BTW don't try to sidetrack this with talk of reparations.  I also agree that payments to individuals would be impossible to manage and probably not nearly as effective as pumping money onto education or social programs to help them work their way to equality and make the system more balanced.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-29-2016, 11:55 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No it isn't.  It is very real. 

White privilege is NOT real. That's not to say there aren't racists in this country but there is no such thing as white privilege.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(09-29-2016, 10:45 AM)Bmoreblitz Wrote: Nah for real they do.... I've lived there for over 6 years. They really walk on egg shells there

My grandmother was off the boat German, but you would've never known it.  Though she could speak both German and English, she had no accent.  In fact growing up I didn't even really think of it, she was just grandma.   Then one day a distant relative from Germany visited and I heard Grandma talking to her German and I was like "holy shit Grandma can speak German?!?!"   Neither her or my great aunt Ruth speak it today (Grandma is dead and I don't see Aunt but about once a year) both married American men.  They're both of the WWII generation and both were somewhat ashamed to be German and wanted to prove they were real Americans.

My father and I both wish though that she would have passed down the language.  They just never spoke it.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-29-2016, 12:04 PM)PhilHos Wrote: White privilege is NOT real. That's not to say there aren't racists in this country but there is no such thing as white privilege.

I've been waiting for my privilege card to arrive, I sure could benefit from being able to use it..