I Would Like to Talk (Civilly) About the Generalization of "White People"

[*PhilHos*]

(09-29-2016, 01:07 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I've been waiting for my privilege card to arrive, I sure could benefit from being able to use it..

I love going into black and hispanic neighborhoods shouting racial epithets knowing that nothing would happen to me and if I call the police, they'll arrest the other guy no matter how much I was the one doing the threatening and assaulting.  

It's nice being able to label all my groups as "White" without any negativity from the community, from my White Entertaintment Televsion to my White Only College Fund. It's great.

I also love how I'm more likely to be shot if I'm ever pulled over by the police. That's nice, too, I guess.

I better stop before I go make all those people of color people jealous of my awesome white privilege that every single white person gets to enjoy!

[Mike M (the other one)]

NO matter which country you go to. The majority race discriminates against the minority race(s).
Not saying it's an excuse, just the way the world works. The US tries to equalize this, but it will always be an uphill battle for a minority group. I never hear SE Asians complaining much about Racism, even though they are a smaller minority than Blacks. I wonder why? BTW, when was the last time an SE Asian killed by an LEO?

[*bfine32*]

(09-29-2016, 12:22 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: My grandmother was off the boat German, but you would've never known it.  Though she could speak both German and English, she had no accent.  In fact growing up I didn't even really think of it, she was just grandma.   Then one day a distant relative from Germany visited and I heard Grandma talking to her German and I was like "holy shit Grandma can speak German?!?!"   Neither her or my great aunt Ruth speak it today (Grandma is dead and I don't see Aunt but about once a year) both married American men.  They're both of the WWII generation and both were somewhat ashamed to be German and wanted to prove they were real Americans.

My father and I both wish though that she would have passed down the language.  They just never spoke it.

All is not lost:

[GMDino]

(09-29-2016, 01:26 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: NO matter which country you go to. The majority race discriminates against the minority race(s).
Not saying it's an excuse, just the way the world works.

Then you agree there is racism in America and the majority race (whites) have the power to discriminate.

Finally!

(09-29-2016, 01:26 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: The US tries to equalize this, but it will always be an uphill battle for a minority group. I never hear SE Asians complaining much about Racism, even though they are a smaller minority than Blacks. I wonder why? BTW, when was the last time an SE Asian killed by an LEO?

Quote:MONDAY, JUL 11, 2016 06:58 PM EDT

Solidarity with Black Lives Matter: Asian Americans speaking out against police brutality
More Asian Americans are refusing to co-sign "model minority" status used to separate them from other non-whites

http://www.salon.com/2016/07/11/solidarity_with_black_lives_matter_asian_americans_speaking_out_against_police_brutality/

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(09-29-2016, 01:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: All is not lost:

Yeah I've always wanted to learn the language.  But my dad, who would be considered a second generation immigrant, can't speak the language.  Most second generation immigrants can speak both their native language and English.  The language is so foreign to me I might as well be trying to learn Greek or Chinese.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-29-2016, 02:12 AM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: They still lived under a king, but his power was limited relative to other European Kingdoms by Parliment.  The British almost always loved individual liberty, even to the point to where they started limiting the monarchy's power sooner than other European kingdoms. (The Magna Carta, for example).

I have to stress again how wrong the idea is that the U.S has a different law/moral identity from the British. The fact that the U.S still uses common law doctrine to this day shits all over that claim.

There were no doubt differences in some laws (although obviously we were going to have similarties to the country that spawned ours), we had to establish state governments - while adding new states - , had to deal with remaining native Americans, etc etc. To believe that a fresh new country could secede from it's old country seamlessly with no hard work ahead or differences is foolhardy. 

And no, the king was not some figurehead like you're making it seem. The king at that point was still commanding the military and the tax increases.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(09-29-2016, 01:34 PM)GMDino Wrote: Then you agree there is racism in America and the majority race (whites) have the power to discriminate.

Finally!









http://www.salon.com/2016/07/11/solidarity_with_black_lives_matter_asian_americans_speaking_out_against_police_brutality/

I never said there wasn't a problem with racism, dippy. I have said that the unarmed black man killings is way overblown.

Uhm, I asked last time an Asian was killed by the police. They are supporting them because of an incident of a black man getting killed, the only officer charged was the Asian Police Officer, that's not the same.

[fredtoast]

(09-29-2016, 12:04 PM)PhilHos Wrote: White privilege is NOT real. That's not to say there aren't racists in this country but there is no such thing as white privilege.

Yes it does.  Here is your historical factual proof.

(09-29-2016, 11:55 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No it isn't.  It is very real.  And you can't tell minorities they can't complain about racial profiling just because you never did it.

The white race has benefited greatly from the color of their skin, and that continues today.  The fact that some white people have failed does not mean that there is not a big white privilege in this country.  

Here is a perfect example from my own life.  I went to college in Knoxville less than 30 years ago.  When the University of Tennessee hired Wade Houston as the first black head basketball coach in the SEC the Cherokee Country Club who had provided a membership to every head coach of every sport at the University for decades, refused to offer him a membership because they did not allow black members.  This was not a bunch of ignorant red necks with rebel flags on their pick up trucks.  This was the power elite of Knoxville who controlled business decisions on hiring, promotions, business contracts.  Basically they controlled the economy of Knoxville and they were all such huge racists that they would not allow a wealthy, successful, college educated man join their social club just because of the color of his skin.

Now, if you are going to argue that there is on evidence that these racists were racists in their business dealings then I am not even going to respond.  Everyone knows that in the city of Knoxville white people had an advantage when applying for a job, trying to get a promotion, trying to borrow money, trying to gets contracts to supply or work with the larger businesses, etc etc.  All of these advantages increase wealth.  And because of this increased wealth the children of these people went to better schools, had access to more education resources (computers, tutors, summer camps), and continued to have more connections to people who can get them better jobs.

And this was not just isolated in Knoxville.  For example I know that Augusta National Country Club (where they play The Masters) did not have a white member until the early 90's.  I am pretty sure that most of the elite country clubs across the south reflected the deep racist beliefs held by the white power elite.

Racial profiling by law enforcement also continues to have a strong economic impact on the minority community.  I'll admit that the African american community has a problem with violent crime, but that does not justify racial profiling.  That is another argument that I would appreciate you keeping out of this thread.  

Racial profiling by law enforcement has been proven and even admitted to.  It is not a myth, and it does not just take place in bad neighborhoods.  And because of racial profiling many more minorities are charged with drug possession even though the same percentage of white people use illegal drugs as blacks.  The criminal justice system is a huge money sponge, and people with criminal charges have harder time getting decent jobs.  So the minority community is having more money and jobs being sucked away due to racial profiling.  This leads to more kids with fewer education resources which makes it harder for the community to compete.

So you can stomp your feet and cry all you want about how some white people still failed, but the fact is that the white race continues to reap the benefits of institutional systematic racism.  Minorities have made some great strides over the last 50 years, but that does not mean everything is suddenly equal.

BTW don't try to sidetrack this with talk of reparations.  I also agree that payments to individuals would be impossible to manage and probably not nearly as effective as pumping money onto education or social programs to help them work their way to equality and make the system more balanced.

Your opinion is completely meaningless when I post historical factual truth.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-29-2016, 12:04 PM)PhilHos Wrote: White privilege is NOT real. That's not to say there aren't racists in this country but there is no such thing as white privilege.

Start preaching this white priveledge BS at a local homeless shelter or unemployment line and watch how people look at you. The people who talk about stuff like that have probably never lived a hard day in their life. There has always been poverty and struggle, and those things aren't exclusive to certain races.

[fredtoast]

(09-29-2016, 01:15 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I love going into black and hispanic neighborhoods shouting racial epithets knowing that nothing would happen to me and if I call the police, they'll arrest the other guy no matter how much I was the one doing the threatening and assaulting.  

Are you seriously trying to argue that there is a precedent of police always arresting the WHITE GUY
when he is innocent and letting the black criminal go?

Really?

[GMDino]

(09-29-2016, 02:14 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I never said there wasn't a problem with racism, dippy. I have said that the unarmed black man killings is way overblown.

Uhm, I asked last time an Asian was killed by the police. They are supporting them because of an incident of a black man getting killed, the only officer charged was the Asian Police Officer, that's not the same.

The first one that comes up is 2007.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Cho

Although it appears that the Asian Americans are more upset that Asian officers actually get convicted.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/18/peter-liang-akai-gurley-killing-asian-american-response

Quote:...on 10 February 2015, Liang was indicted in the Gurley shooting, andconvicted of second-degree manslaughter a year later. He is scheduled to be sentenced on 19 April.

A rookie cop who’d been on the job for 18 months, he was the first New York City officer convicted for an on-duty shooting in more than 10 years.

It appears convictions against the police are more rare than them shooting Asians?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(09-29-2016, 02:28 PM)GMDino Wrote: The first one that comes up is 2007.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Cho

Although it appears that the Asian Americans are more upset that Asian officers actually get convicted.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/18/peter-liang-akai-gurley-killing-asian-american-response



It appears convictions against the police are more rare than them shooting Asians?

Good work.

If the LEO's are so racist, why is there only 1 Asian killed in the last 9 years?

[Millhouse]

(09-29-2016, 12:04 PM)PhilHos Wrote: White privilege is NOT real. That's not to say there aren't racists in this country but there is no such thing as white privilege.

It can be real for some white people in some scenarios. But it certainly isnt like it used to be like in the 1940s and 50s for example.

[GMDino]

(09-29-2016, 02:37 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Good work.

If the LEO's are so racist, why is there only 1 Asian killed in the last 9 years?

Was there only 1 in 9 years?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database

But, again, let's not talk in absolutes.  13 killed in 2016 doesn't mean they were race related.

However, again, people who want to ignore the "rare occurrences" simply want to ignore that it happens at all.

[BmorePat87]

(09-29-2016, 01:48 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Did the UK have city/state/federal government's? Heck, they were still ruled by royalty when we broke off from them. I'd say there was quite of bit of difference eventually, and I'm sure there was much to sort out for a brand new country. It's honestly ignorant to think otherwise.

And like I said, 80 years wasn't a long time in the grand scope of things. Especially for a new country that was still adding states and sorting out many things. Taxation, this new thing called "freedom", a system of government that had major differences, etc etc. Eventually, slavery was handled. It didn't take very long.

We essentially rolled the colonial governments into state governments. The same colonial governments that were following English common law. The crown honestly wasn't as involved as people would make it out to be. Our first few years was under the Articles of Confederation and the central government was nearly powerless, so it was just the states running themselves, just as the colonies were running themselves for the most part prior. We had a President of Congress in the same sense that Parliament had a Prime Minister during those days. 

We borrowed almost all of our ideas from English and French philosophers and preexisting English documents. As Bigzoman said, a lot of these limits on government and concepts of popular sovereignty and consent of the govern had been around for a while. The big difference was having a "democratically" elected President over a King, but even England had a period of time when they removed the King and attempted to have a legislative body in power.

The Constitution brought differences in our system (federal over confederacy), requiring us to add an executive branch and a judicial branch, but they were much smaller in scope then than they are now. 

If you look at a timeline of when other nations abolished slavery, it is a big deal. Nations were forming after we did in the Americas and were instantly abolishing slavery. We weren't even one of the first 10 in the Americas. Not even one of the first 25 in the world. It took a long time. That's like suggesting the 80 years between the end of Reconstruction and the Civil Rights movement wasn't a long time. 80 years of citizens being denied rights. 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-29-2016, 07:05 AM)GMDino Wrote: It took almost century for a group of men who demanded they no longer be under the rule of another country to decide that all the people who were bought and sold as property should be freed.

If it took longer than 10 seconds to realize now that they were no longer a British colony they could let ALL people be free it was too long.

They understood the concept of "freedom".  They also understood how to make a buck.

They inherited an economy that was built by the British, using British methods (slavery). If they had gotten rid of slavery from Day 1, their economy would have collapsed instantly, the brand new country would have fallen into ruin, and America would either...

1. Look like the Middle East today, with no government worth mentioning. (Doesn't Syria look lovely this time of year?)
or
2. Be under British rule again after they walked right in without a fight because the government couldn't pay or equip their soldiers, and then we'd have slavery for even longer and all the things that America invented or introduced technology or ideologically might not have ever happened.

Shitty that it lasted as long as it did? Most certainly. Horrible? Yup.

But lets not forget that as soon as the fledgling country was no longer in danger of instantly collapsing (they fought well over a dozen and a half wars in the 80 years between winning the Revolution and the Civil War) the US killed up to 750,000 of it's own (not even counting wounded) to end slavery (though there were other issues in the Civil War as well).



If you know a way to entirely rebuild an economy overnight after it had been a certain way for 150 years, while also fighting tons of wars against a lot of different countries that don't want you to exist, I would love to know it.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Are White people racists or is it just a flippant attitude towards everything?

What I mean by that is there are calls of racism for everything and White people are just "Who Cares" now.

[Wes Mantooth]

(09-29-2016, 11:55 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is a perfect example from my own life.  I went to college in Knoxville less than 30 years ago.  When the University of Tennessee hired Wade Houston as the first black head basketball coach in the SEC the Cherokee Country Club who had provided a membership to every head coach of every sport at the University for decades, refused to offer him a membership because they did not allow black members.  This was not a bunch of ignorant red necks with rebel flags on their pick up trucks.  This was the power elite of Knoxville who controlled business decisions on hiring, promotions, business contracts.  Basically they controlled the economy of Knoxville and they were all such huge racists that they would not allow a wealthy, successful, college educated man join their social club just because of the color of his skin.

Now, if you are going to argue that there is on evidence that these racists were racists in their business dealings then I am not even going to respond.  Everyone knows that in the city of Knoxville white people had an advantage when applying for a job, trying to get a promotion, trying to borrow money, trying to gets contracts to supply or work with the larger businesses, etc etc.  All of these advantages increase wealth.  And because of this increased wealth the children of these people went to better schools, had access to more education resources (computers, tutors, summer camps), and continued to have more connections to people who can get them better jobs.

I find this to be a terrible example when used to try convince me that white privilege exists for all whites in 2016.

You've given an example of some "white people", who are probably all dead by now, from 30 years ago, who had a racist club selection practices.

This does nothing to convince me that for all whites there is an inherit privilege just for simply being white in 2016.  Nothing.  There is no built economic advantage for all whites just for being white.  There is no built in educational advantage for all whites either.  Social advantage, that maybe can be discussed.  But I don't think you can ever apply it to everyone, in any case.

You simply can't talk in absolutes.  All whites benefiting from the color of thire skin is incorrect as saying that all blacks have been hindered by theirs.  Some have, some haven't.  Some.  There's a big difference.

There are plenty of white kids that are given nothing.  Nothing.  No money, terrible schools, terrible parenting, terrible health care.  And there's plenty of blacks that enjoy immense privileges.  Born into wealth, best schools, best healthcare, every resource imaginable.  Even if the numbers are disproportion there's a lot that goes into that.  Regardless, the idea of white privilege for all is just not true.  Not now, not in this time.

[GMDino]

(09-29-2016, 03:33 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: They inherited an economy that was built by the British, using British methods (slavery). If they had gotten rid of slavery from Day 1, their economy would have collapsed instantly, the brand new country would have fallen into ruin, and America would either...

1. Look like the Middle East today, with no government worth mentioning. (Doesn't Syria look lovely this time of year?)
or
2. Be under British rule again after they walked right in without a fight because the government couldn't pay or equip their soldiers, and then we'd have slavery for even longer and all the things that America invented or introduced technology or ideologically might not have ever happened.

Shitty that it lasted as long as it did? Most certainly. Horrible? Yup.

But lets not forget that as soon as the fledgling country was no longer in danger of instantly collapsing (they fought well over a dozen and a half wars in the 80 years between winning the Revolution and the Civil War) the US killed up to 750,000 of it's own (not even counting wounded) to end slavery (though there were other issues in the Civil War as well).



If you know a way to entirely rebuild an economy overnight after it had been a certain way for 150 years, while also fighting tons of wars against a lot of different countries that don't want you to exist, I would love to know it.

Like I said:

(09-29-2016, 07:05 AM)GMDino Wrote: They understood the concept of "freedom".  They also understood how to make a buck.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(09-29-2016, 02:49 PM)GMDino Wrote: Was there only 1 in 9 years?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database

But, again, let's not talk in absolutes.  13 killed in 2016 doesn't mean they were race related.

However, again, people who want to ignore the "rare occurrences" simply want to ignore that it happens at all.

Yes while you ignore the number of times there is interactions between PO's and blacks on a daily basis.