I Would Like to Talk (Civilly) About the Generalization of "White People"

[Wes Mantooth]

I'm reaching out to those who might come from a different view point than my own, and/or those who would like to have a legitimate discussion about the grouping of white people (by some) as a single entity. And perhaps I could actually learn something here, I would honestly love a different perspective.

First thing is first, let me explain why exactly this conversation popped into my head. I saw a video earlier this evening that featured a group of University of Kansas students having a debate about something to do with safe spaces on campus. One particular woman repeatedly used the term "white people" towards the group she was arguing with. Many times in reference to their ancestors. ie "Your ancestors benefited by enslaving my people". "White people" did this and that.

Now let me preface me sharing my perspective with this statement: Slavery was a terrible, terrible thing. So terrible in fact that I'm not sure there is even a word to describe just how awful it is and was. And that goes all throughout history. It's a dark stain on many of the books that write the history of mankind. Not only as a "white person", but as a human being, I feel a great shame that it has been a part of this world. I am in no way trying to diminish it's impact on modern society or the awfulness of it.

So here's the deal. I can't help but feeling that the term "white people" when used to lump all of us together, especially when describing past atrocities, is not only terribly unfair, but incredibly stupid. Beyond stupid. So stupid inf act that a person who does this doesn't even deserve a response.

People do know that the vast majority of the current white population, or "white people" not only personally had nothing to with slavery. but none of their ancestors did either, right? People do know that there weren't too many plantation owners that were German, or Irish, or Jewish, or Italian, or Greek, right? People have heard of Ellis Island, and the whole timeline of immigration have they not? If they gave, why do many always have these "white people" grouped together?

Not only do most "white people descend from families who weren't even prior to the late 1800's, there's also a number of them who descend from families that actually fought to free the slaves.

Personally, I am of Irish, German, and Romanian descent. No one from either of my families was here in the states prior to somewhere right around the turn of the century (1890-1910 range). Do I, as a "white person" need to feel any more amount of guilt or shame than any other nationality? If so, why exactly?

I would argue that vilifying me, simply because I'm white and white people owned slaves, is akin to vilifying an African American because of the actions of Somalia pirates. I mean, after all, the only thing in each example is skin tone, is it not?

Why is it ok to tell "white people" they need to acknowledge the actions of the ancestors when in fact many of the ancestors had nothing to do with any of what is being discussed. And when exactly can we just start apologizing for our own actions, you know, the one's we have actual control over?

Now, I understand there is this whole other discussion about "white privilege", which is a completely different animal. And I can sympathize with some of it, but much of it I think is greatly overstated, specially in regards to the economic advantage. But I digress. I do understand that is a different debate.

I'm sorry, I just think there is just this grouping by many of all white people together, as if we are guilty for the sins of our fathers, despite the fact they aren't are fathers. Why is it ok to group such an enormous amount of population together based only on skin tone, and not actual facts? It just seems incredibly stupid to scream into a white person's face about their ancestor when we all know damn well how many different nationalities make up this great country of ours.

Thoughts????

[Wes Mantooth]

As I've had some time since I posted this, and since it's generated zero discussion, I'm wondering it was a mistake to post it. I realize that so much of what surrounds discussion like this is a extremely sensitive subject. I do hope I explained myself and worded it in a way that is constructive and doesn't come across as insensitive.

Basically, the video I saw featured a woman, screaming into another woman's face, about what her ancestors did do her ancestors. I wondered, and have wondered numerous times, if the majority of people realize how wrong it is to describe all white people as the descendents of slaves owners. It's a broad brush I see used often, and it's seems both unfair and completely counterproductive to trying to promote actual diversity.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(09-26-2016, 02:07 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: As I've had some time since I posted this, and since it's generated zero discussion, I'm wondering it was a mistake to post it.  I realize that so much of what surrounds discussion like this is a extremely sensitive subject.  I do hope I explained myself and worded it in a way that is constructive and doesn't come across as insensitive.

Basically, the video I saw featured a woman, screaming into another woman's face, about what her ancestors did do her ancestors.  I wondered, and have wondered numerous times, if the majority of people realize how wrong it is to describe all white people as the descendents of slaves owners.  It's a broad brush I see used often, and it's seems both unfair and completely counterproductive to trying to promote actual diversity.

My apologies, it actually has had me thinking and do think it's interesting.  But as you eluded to it is complicated.  I can empathize of what people of color (or religion or sexual orientation for that matter) feel, but I am alas a strait white male.  So it is very difficult for me to truly know what it is like to be discriminated against in a systemic fashion in this country.  Even though great strides have been made in the last 20, 30, 40, and 50 yrs. I think more could be made.  I really believe that things will get better with time.  The ones that still think we should be segregated (and have drive through privileges) will die off eventually.  We will continue toward our goal of things being equal for everyone.  We must just continue the fight.  Discussion like this is key though.

[xxlt]

(09-26-2016, 12:21 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm reaching out to those who might come from a different view point than my own, and/or those who would like to have a legitimate discussion about the grouping of white people (by some) as a single entity.  And perhaps I could actually learn something here, I would honestly love a different perspective.

First thing is first, let me explain why exactly this conversation popped into my head.  I saw a video earlier this evening that featured a group of University of Kansas students having a debate about something to do with safe spaces on campus.  One particular woman repeatedly used the term "white people" towards the group she was arguing with. Many times in reference to their ancestors.  ie "Your ancestors benefited by enslaving my people".  "White people" did this and that.

Now let me preface me sharing my perspective with this statement: Slavery was a terrible, terrible thing.  So terrible in fact that I'm not sure there is even a word to describe just how awful it is and was.  And that goes all throughout history.  It's a dark stain on many of the books that write the history of mankind.  Not only as a "white person", but as a human being, I feel a great shame that it has been a part of this world.  I am in no way trying to diminish it's impact on modern society or the awfulness of it.

So here's the deal.  I can't help but feeling that the term "white people" when used to lump all of us together, especially when describing past atrocities, is not only terribly unfair, but incredibly stupid.  Beyond stupid.  So stupid inf act that a person who does this doesn't even deserve a response.

People do know that the vast majority of the current white population, or "white people" not only personally had nothing to with slavery. but none of their ancestors did either, right?  People do know that there weren't too many plantation owners that were German, or Irish, or Jewish, or Italian, or Greek, right?  People have heard of Ellis Island, and the whole timeline of immigration have they not?  If they gave, why do many always have these "white people" grouped together?

Not only do most "white people descend from families who weren't even prior to the late 1800's, there's also a number of them who descend from families that actually fought to free the slaves.

Personally, I am of Irish, German, and Romanian descent.  No one from either of my families was here in the states prior to somewhere right around the turn of the century (1890-1910 range).  Do I, as a "white person" need to feel any more amount of guilt or shame than any other nationality?  If so, why exactly?

I would argue that vilifying me, simply because I'm white and white people owned slaves, is akin to vilifying an African American because of the actions of Somalia pirates.  I mean, after all, the only thing in each example is skin tone, is it not?

Why is it ok to tell "white people" they need to acknowledge the actions of the ancestors when in fact many of the ancestors had nothing to do with any of what is being discussed.  And when exactly can we just start apologizing for our own actions, you know, the one's we have actual control over?

Now, I understand there is this whole other discussion about "white privilege", which is a completely different animal.  And I can sympathize with some of it, but much of it I think is greatly overstated, specially in regards to the economic advantage.  But I digress.  I do understand that is a different debate.

I'm sorry, I just think there is just this grouping by many of all white people together, as if we are guilty for the sins of our fathers, despite the fact they aren't are fathers.  Why is it ok to group such an enormous amount of population together based only on skin tone, and not actual facts?  It just seems incredibly stupid to scream into a white person's face about their ancestor when we all know damn well how many different nationalities make up this great country of ours.

Thoughts????

It is a fact that some white people went into Africa to capture and enslave black Africans. It is also a fact that many black Africans were captured by other black Africans and sold to white slave traders from Europe and America. So, there is blood on the hands of ancestors both black and white in terms of the slave trade.

You have a point about painting with a broad brush. Germans were responsible electing and supporting Hitler and for the war he launched. Blaming all whites for this is folly. Similarly, Americans were responsible for electing and supporting Bush and for the war he launched. Blaming all whites for this is folly.

But, I think you are off base in your understanding of modern history in terms of race, class, and culture. A couple of books you might want to look at are From Slavery to Freedom by John Hope Franklin, Black Like Me by John Howard Griffin, and Native Son by Richard Wright. There you have a history book, an autobiography written by a white man who darkened his skin to live in the deep South as a black man and learn what it was like, and a novel. I think each could give you insights into race, class, and culture that you presently do not have.

I don't think the average white person consciously and deliberately holds malice in their heart toward blacks or other minorities at this point, although many do. But what is more insidious than consciously chosen and espoused racism is the institutional racism that our country is thick with. It is what drives the person you object to in the OP to lump all white people together, and also what drives people to dismiss 300 years of systematic oppression of blacks as "ancient history" and "irrelevant." 

To better understand the phenomenon of institutional racism I would, again, suggest reading more. For a good contemporary perspective from a black public figure you might want to follow Kareem Abdul Jabbar on twitter. He's written some good op-ed pieces in the last year that you can find in his Twitter feed and I believe he has a book coming out soon too. 

[BmorePat87]

(09-26-2016, 12:21 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm reaching out to those who might come from a different view point than my own, and/or those who would like to have a legitimate discussion about the grouping of white people (by some) as a single entity.  And perhaps I could actually learn something here, I would honestly love a different perspective.

First thing is first, let me explain why exactly this conversation popped into my head.  I saw a video earlier this evening that featured a group of University of Kansas students having a debate about something to do with safe spaces on campus.  One particular woman repeatedly used the term "white people" towards the group she was arguing with. Many times in reference to their ancestors.  ie "Your ancestors benefited by enslaving my people".  "White people" did this and that.

Now let me preface me sharing my perspective with this statement: Slavery was a terrible, terrible thing.  So terrible in fact that I'm not sure there is even a word to describe just how awful it is and was.  And that goes all throughout history.  It's a dark stain on many of the books that write the history of mankind.  Not only as a "white person", but as a human being, I feel a great shame that it has been a part of this world.  I am in no way trying to diminish it's impact on modern society or the awfulness of it.

So here's the deal.  I can't help but feeling that the term "white people" when used to lump all of us together, especially when describing past atrocities, is not only terribly unfair, but incredibly stupid.  Beyond stupid.  So stupid inf act that a person who does this doesn't even deserve a response.

People do know that the vast majority of the current white population, or "white people" not only personally had nothing to with slavery. but none of their ancestors did either, right?  People do know that there weren't too many plantation owners that were German, or Irish, or Jewish, or Italian, or Greek, right?  People have heard of Ellis Island, and the whole timeline of immigration have they not?  If they gave, why do many always have these "white people" grouped together?

Not only do most "white people descend from families who weren't even prior to the late 1800's, there's also a number of them who descend from families that actually fought to free the slaves.

Personally, I am of Irish, German, and Romanian descent.  No one from either of my families was here in the states prior to somewhere right around the turn of the century (1890-1910 range).  Do I, as a "white person" need to feel any more amount of guilt or shame than any other nationality?  If so, why exactly?

I would argue that vilifying me, simply because I'm white and white people owned slaves, is akin to vilifying an African American because of the actions of Somalia pirates.  I mean, after all, the only thing in each example is skin tone, is it not?

Why is it ok to tell "white people" they need to acknowledge the actions of the ancestors when in fact many of the ancestors had nothing to do with any of what is being discussed.  And when exactly can we just start apologizing for our own actions, you know, the one's we have actual control over?

Now, I understand there is this whole other discussion about "white privilege", which is a completely different animal.  And I can sympathize with some of it, but much of it I think is greatly overstated, specially in regards to the economic advantage.  But I digress.  I do understand that is a different debate.

I'm sorry, I just think there is just this grouping by many of all white people together, as if we are guilty for the sins of our fathers, despite the fact they aren't are fathers.  Why is it ok to group such an enormous amount of population together based only on skin tone, and not actual facts?  It just seems incredibly stupid to scream into a white person's face about their ancestor when we all know damn well how many different nationalities make up this great country of ours.

Thoughts????

There's certainly a difference between saying "you white people are to blame" and saying "It is more beneficial in our society to be white, this is what you can do to help". The problem is you're referencing some idiot who needs a safe space on a college campus. You're not getting the most intellectually honest person. One side should concede that life is different for minorities. The other should concede that not all white people make up this group that has been discriminating for centuries. 

One thing I am going to say as a history teacher, though, is that most people didn't fight the Civil War to end slavery. While slavery is certainly the cause for the South to secede (revisionists, yes it is.), the primary cause for putting down this rebellion was to bring American territory back into the union. The North didn't want slavery to spread, but most soldiers in the Union army weren't fighting to free black people. Their complete disinterest in the lives of black people is what allowed reconstruction to end and Jim Crow to thrive for decades. 

[Bengalbug]

(09-26-2016, 10:04 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: There's certainly a difference between saying "you white people are to blame" and saying "It is more beneficial in our society to be white, this is what you can do to help". The problem is you're referencing some idiot who needs a safe space on a college campus. You're not getting the most intellectually honest person. One side should concede that life is different for minorities. The other should concede that not all white people make up this group that has been discriminating for centuries. 

One thing I am going to say as a history teacher, though, is that most people didn't fight the Civil War to end slavery. While slavery is certainly the cause for the South to concede (revisionists, yes it is.), the primary cause for putting down this rebellion was to bring American territory back into the union. The North didn't want slavery to spread, but most soldiers in the Union army weren't fighting to free black people. Their complete disinterest in the lives of black people is what allowed reconstruction to end and Jim Crow to thrive for decades. 

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that." Abraham Lincoln excerpt from a letter to Horace Greeley

[BmorePat87]

(09-26-2016, 10:25 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that." Abraham Lincoln excerpt from a letter to Horace Greeley

http://www.nytimes.com/1862/08/24/news/letter-president-lincoln-reply-horace-greeley-slavery-union-restoration-union.html

In case others want to see the full letter. 

[fredtoast]

I'll bet if a "good Muslim" or "good black person" wrote something like this a lot of people would be claiming that he should be doing something to stop the "bad Muslims" or "bad black people". But none of the "good white people" ever get ripped for not stopping the "bad white people" from being racists.

This country still has plenty of institutional and individual racism by white people. When this is pointed out to white people their response is always "but that is not me", and they never take any steps to stop the racism.

So if you are one of those white people who criticizes blacks for not addressing the problems in the black culture or who criticizes Muslims for not addressing the problems in radical Muslim culture then you need to start explaining what steps you are taking to address the issue of racism in white culture.

[Wes Mantooth]

(09-26-2016, 12:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I'll bet if a "good Muslim" or "good black person" wrote something like this a lot of people would be claiming that he should be doing something to stop the "bad Muslims" or "bad black people".  But none of the "good white people" ever get ripped for not stopping the "bad white people" from being racists.

This country still has plenty of institutional and individual racism by white people.  When this is pointed out to white people their response is always "but that is not me", and they never take any steps to stop the racism.

So if you are one of those white people who criticizes blacks for not addressing the problems in the black culture or who criticizes Muslims for not addressing the problems in radical Muslim culture then you need to start explaining what steps you are taking to address the issue of racism in white culture.

I'm not sure if you actually read what was written or not, but nowhere did I say anything about there not being white racism.

This entire thread was about the grouping of all white people together, specifically when discussing their involvement in slavery.  ie "Your ancestors did..."

IMHO, there seems to be a commonly held belief by many in this country that white people as a whole are responsible for slavery.  All I was trying to have a discussion about is just how many different nationalities make up what some just simplify as "white".

I'll give another example.  There was a Greek family that went to my school.  The father, along with the mother, immigrated here in the late 1970's I believe.  I'm pretty sure some or all of the kids came in tow.  No family here already, just them.  And of course the parents had very, very think accents.  So anyway, the kids spent near their entire lives here.  They are now grown.  They look "white", they talk "white".  By all accounts they are "white".  Should they feel any shame, or guilt, or responsibility when it comes to the subject of slavery?

Again, I'm not talking about white privilege, I even said as much before.  Many lump all whites together as their involvement or responsibility is concerned.  And I think that seems both odd and unfair, given the makeup of our country.

[fredtoast]

(09-26-2016, 12:41 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm not sure if you actually read what was written or not, but nowhere did I say anything about there not being white racism.

This entire thread was about the grouping of all white people together, specifically when discussing their involvement in slavery.  ie "Your ancestors did..."

I'm not sure if you actually read what was written or not, but I was specifically talking about how white people love to group all black people and Muslims together.

And who even cares about slavery when there is still racism by white people today?  The fact that slavery is over does not mean it is okay to be racists in other ways today.  I seriously doubt that black people would be complaining about slavery if they were not still being subject to racism.

[Rotobeast]

Until all peoples are willing to drop their defensive fronts and bare their naked souls to one another, we shall not advance as a society.
Far too long have we projected images and ideals, out of fear and protectionism.
There needs to be bravery on all sides, to be honest, without fear of reprisal.

This is a good topic, Toast.
I'm guessing the slow responses were due to people enjoying the games yesterday.


Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

[BmorePat87]

(09-26-2016, 12:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I'll bet if a "good Muslim" or "good black person" wrote something like this a lot of people would be claiming that he should be doing something to stop the "bad Muslims" or "bad black people".  But none of the "good white people" ever get ripped for not stopping the "bad white people" from being racists.

This country still has plenty of institutional and individual racism by white people.  When this is pointed out to white people their response is always "but that is not me", and they never take any steps to stop the racism.

So if you are one of those white people who criticizes blacks for not addressing the problems in the black culture or who criticizes Muslims for not addressing the problems in radical Muslim culture then you need to start explaining what steps you are taking to address the issue of racism in white culture.

This is a good point. There is often an expectation from some within other communities for groups to self police. "Muslims should be fighting against radical Islam" or "Black people need to be more concerned about black on black crime". 

If we accept institutionalized racism within a society in which white people are the majority, those who argue the first point of self policing should be accepting the same. At the same time, those arguing the first usually don't accept institutionalized racism as being a thing. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(09-26-2016, 12:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.) I'm not sure if you actually read what was written or not, but I was specifically talking about how white people love to group all black people and Muslims together.

2.) And who even cares about slavery when there is still racism by white people today?  3.) The fact that slavery is over does not mean it is okay to be racists in other ways today.  I seriously doubt that black people would be complaining about slavery if they were not still being subject to racism.

1.) Do you commonly make a point of barging into conversations and completely change the subject?  This thread had a pretty specific talking point, one that took time to reiterate numerous times.  I'm not sure how I could have been more clear.  I even took an entire paragraph to explain that this was not about "white privilege", as I understood that grouping was entire different debate.

This is specifically about when people lump all white people together in terms of their involvement in slavery, the perceived need for white guilt, and the whole "sins of the father" mentality.

2.) Apparently the girl that motivated me to start this thread.  I'm sorry you don't like the subject matter.  I guess I would suggest starting your own thread, to discuss what it is you feel is appropriate conversation.  The woman in the video I watched screamed into a strangers face that her ancestors enslaved her ancestors.  I think it is wrong to presume that just because someone is "white".  If you disagree then please explain why.

3.) Where did anyone says that it was?  Who exactly are you have a conversation with?  Because it's certainly not me, or anyone else that has participated in this thread.  Nowhere did anyone say, or imply anything even remotely close to this.

"White people" are often accused of enslaving "black people".  There's a lot of different white people that make up this country.  The vast majority descend from families that not only had no involvement in it, they weren't even here yet.  Telling a Jewish person, or an Italian that they were ancestors enslaved people is just factually wrong.

The difference between an Irish person and an Italian person is akin to the difference between a Chinese person and a Korean person.  It would be odd to bring up the Ming dynasty or something and apply it to a Korean would it not? 

[fredtoast]

(09-26-2016, 01:29 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: 1.) Do you commonly make a point of barging into conversations and completely change the subject?  This thread had a pretty specific talking point, one that took time to reiterate numerous times.  I'm not sure how I could have been more clear.  I even took an entire paragraph to explain that this was not about "white privilege", as I understood that grouping was entire different debate.a Korean person.  It would be odd to bring up the Ming dynasty or something and apply it to a Korean would it not? 

I never changed the subject.  I was just pointing out that you really have no basis to pull your victim card and get all upset over "grouping" when all races do it about all other races.

But since apparently you don't really want to talk about grouping, but instead just talk about the blame for slavery I will try to give you the "different perspective" that you claimed you wanted to hear.  Slavery did not just benefit the white slave owners.  Agricultural exports were a huge part of the nations economy for a long period of time and he entire United States benefited from the economic advantages of slavery.  The profits from slavery built a nation that was exclusively controlled by white people for hundreds of years.  So basically all white people benefited from slavery.  It took almost 200 years for blacks to receive protection from the Civil Rights Act and the Voters Rights Act.  You perents were born into a country that still oppressed bvlack people.  That advantage does not just disappear in one generation.  So while slavery has been gone for a long time the inequality and lingering effects that it created have not

[*bfine32*]

(09-26-2016, 01:29 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: 1.) Do you commonly make a point of barging into conversations and completely change the subject? 

You're new here aren't you?

[Wes Mantooth]

(09-26-2016, 01:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I never changed the subject.  I was just pointing out that you really have no basis to pull your victim card and get all upset over "grouping" when all races do it about all other races.

But since apparently you don't really want to talk about grouping, but instead just talk about the blame for slavery I will try to give you the "different perspective" that you claimed you wanted to hear.  Slavery did not just benefit the white slave owners.  Agricultural exports were a huge part of the nations economy for a long period of time and he entire United States benefited from the economic advantages of slavery.  The profits from slavery built a nation that was exclusively controlled by white people for hundreds of years.  So basically all white people benefited from slavery.  It took almost 200 years for blacks to receive protection from the Civil Rights Act and the Voters Rights Act.  You perents were born into a country that still oppressed bvlack people.  That advantage does not just disappear in one generation.  So while slavery has been gone for a long time the inequality and lingering effects that it created have not

I pulled this, copied and pasted, exactly from the OP.  Sorry I would have used the quote function but I'm not actually sure how to insert a quote into a reply of another quote.

Now, I understand there is this whole other discussion about "white privilege", which is a completely different animal.  And I can sympathize with some of it, but much of it I think is greatly overstated, specially in regards to the economic advantage.  But I digress.  I do understand that is a different debate.

I think it's pretty clear.  I understand there is a whole other debate in regards to the subject of "white privilege".  I do. And I would be happy to give you some of my thoughts on it if you would like.  But you are changing the subject.  Either you didn't read my entire post, you didn't understand it, or you're choosing to change the subject.  Take your pick.

There are a lot of people, and they have been a lot of instances, where white people are all grouped together in terms of relation to slavery.  I don't think anyone can I argue that.  But you're more than welcome to if you like.  This entire thread has been about how untrue and unfair that generalization is.

And fwiw, the woman who sparked me to start this conversation later went to make statements that (paraphrased) "Your people committed genocide on the Native Americans".

Again, ignorant.  Just because some "white people" owned slaves, and some "white people" killed countless Native Americans, does not mean that all white people descend from said people.  A "white" immigrant, who made is way to Ellis Island in the early 1900's has as much to do with slavery and Native American's as a Muslim or Cuban refugee does today.  None.  The only difference is the share the same skin color as those people.  Hell, they don't even share the same nationality.

How can someone preach about things like profiling and racism when they lump an entire group of people based only on skin color?  Many white American's people have as much hand in either of these atrocities as the woman who is referencing these events' people.

My people did jack shit in regards to slavery.  You want to talk about how they benefit from it, that's fine, we can do that. And they probably never even saw a Native American.  These are facts for most white Americans.  Yet it seems largely ignored by people hell bent on creating division.

Like I said, if you want to talk white privilege, I'd be happy to give you my thoughts.  Just keep in mind that is entirely different debate.  

[Wes Mantooth]

(09-26-2016, 02:18 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You're new here aren't you?

It never ceases to amaze me.  No matter what you actually write, even when you spell it out specifically in advance to something you know is coming if you don't go out of your way to address it (this about this and not that...) it still gets twisted. 

[*bfine32*]

(09-26-2016, 03:39 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: It never ceases to amaze me.  No matter what you actually write, even when you spell it out specifically in advance to something you know is coming if you don't go out of your way to address it (this about this and not that...) it still gets twisted. 

It is because many here talk in bumper sticker. If the OP cannot be answered by a bumper sticker slogan, it is often guided to a point to which it can be.

[fredtoast]

(09-26-2016, 03:39 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: It never ceases to amaze me.  No matter what you actually write, even when you spell it out specifically in advance to something you know is coming if you don't go out of your way to address it (this about this and not that...) it still gets twisted. 

What you are trying to do is take a large complicated issue and make a big deal out of a very small part of it.

It doesn't matter to most black people that only a very small percentage of white people are descendants from slave owners when the entire nation of white people benefited from slavery.  The argument is not just based on individual slave owners, but the fact that the development of the entire nation was tied to slave labor.

So if you want to claim a victory on one very small technical aspect of the issue you can.  But most people are more concerned about the big picture and the major issues that have to be resolved.  Sorry that I offended you so much by adding the proper context to your argument.  

[Bengalbug]

(09-26-2016, 03:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What you are trying to do is take a large complicated issue and make a big deal out of a very small part of it.

It doesn't matter to most black people that only a very small percentage of white people are descendants from slave owners when the entire nation of white people benefited from slavery.  The argument is not just based on individual slave owners, but the fact that the development of the entire nation was tied to slave labor.

So if you want to claim a victory on one very small technical aspect of the issue you can.  But most people are more concerned about the big picture and the major issues that have to be resolved.  Sorry that I offended you so much by adding the proper context to your argument.  

Its not about a victory. But based on the original post you are the one taking it out of context.  If you want to talk about the bigger picture, great.  But that wasn't the purpose here.

If I make a thread in jungle noise about the an aspect of the bengals (rushing offense for example) that doesnt mean I want to talk about the entire aspect of the bengals starting with Mike brown and ownership. 

No one is saying you are wrong, and no one has been necessarily been wrong here.  But I get where the OP was going and you completely tried your best to take the train off the tracks to best work with your opinion and agenda.