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**jj22** · 08-09-2018, 01:40 PM

Ok ok. I know I've been pretty hard on Trump and people probably don't believe me anymore when I say I am an independent (I am I just can't help not liking the guy).

But not trying to start any trouble, or "another anti Trump thread".

I do want to however give my opinion on this, and the overall phenomenum of turning people away from joining our military for reasons (political) other than health...

https://apnews.com/193bead238ef407a882756be5fd74fbe/For-now,-Army-suspends-discharges-of-immigrant-recruits?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP&utm_campaign=SocialFlow

Why do we keep trying to stop those (gays, immigrants) from serving in our Military. Many people aren't willing to risk their lives to serve in the military, and I feel like this administration or Republicans in general, spend a lot of time dictating who can serve this country based off of sexual orientation, and now immigrants.

I personally don't understand it and am curious to see who agrees with this and why?

Why tell a health person they can't risk their life for their country or at least to show they are committed to this country as these immigrants were trying to do?

**jj22** · 08-09-2018, 01:44 PM

On a side note, I've often argued that non violent criminals should get the option of joining the military to get their sentences reduced or ended. What are you guys thoughts on that?

***Nately120*** · 08-09-2018, 01:49 PM

My cynical view is that people in the military are viewed as heroes and certain people don't like the idea of calling gays, trans people, etc heroes. The other argument is that people in the military don't want gays and trans people in the military, but I'm not sure how true that is or how they reacted to women being in the military, either.

**jj22** · 08-09-2018, 01:58 PM

I know there was an argument against paying for their sex change (which I actually understand that part), but other than that.....

**Yojimbo** · 08-09-2018, 02:00 PM

(08-09-2018, 01:44 PM)jj22 Wrote: On a side note, I've often argued that non violent criminals should get the option of joining the military to get their sentences reduced or ended. What are you guys thoughts on that?

That is an option that judges can give convicted criminals, in some cases. A guy I went to high school with got that ultimatum when he was 18. Join the military or go to jail.

The most common argument against, that I see, is the logistics of birthing and showering. Although, I find it sad/funny/ironic that “tough guys” are afraid to sleep or shower with anybody except straight men.

***michaelsean*** · 08-09-2018, 03:29 PM

(08-09-2018, 01:44 PM)jj22 Wrote: On a side note, I've often argued that non violent criminals should get the option of joining the military to get their sentences reduced or ended. What are you guys thoughts on that?

Britain took over the world with murderers, rapists and general thugs. But why would you want the non-violent ones?

***bfine32*** · 08-09-2018, 03:44 PM

(08-09-2018, 01:40 PM)jj22 Wrote: Ok ok. I know I've been pretty hard on Trump and people probably don't believe me anymore when I say I am an independent (I am I just can't help not liking the guy).

But not trying to start any trouble, or "another anti Trump thread".

I do want to however give my opinion on this, and the overall phenomenum of turning people away from joining our military for reasons (political) other than health...

https://apnews.com/193bead238ef407a882756be5fd74fbe/For-now,-Army-suspends-discharges-of-immigrant-recruits?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP&utm_campaign=SocialFlow

Why do we keep trying to stop those (gays, immigrants) from serving in our Military. Many people aren't willing to risk their lives to serve in the military, and I feel like this administration or Republicans in general, spend a lot of time dictating who can serve this country based off of sexual orientation, and now immigrants.

I personally don't understand it and am curious to see who agrees with this and why?

Why tell a health person they can't risk their life for their country or at least to show they are committed to this country as these immigrants were trying to do?

As to immigrants:

To be fair it was a Republican (Bush JR) who opened the flood gates for immigrant expedited citizenship connected with Military Service. So we can stop with the Republicans "don't want" spin.

He/we just didn't see how slippery the slope was and folks are trying to fix what they view is broken: It is not partisan.

As to Gays:
They can be in the Army

As to transgender:
(IMO) Should not be able to transform while in the Military. But this is a relatively new dynamic.

**jj22** · 08-09-2018, 04:17 PM

Well I certainly don't see these issues when Dems are running the country. It's only when Republicans run the country do we see them try to decide who can or can't be in the military based on things other than health.....

And no, they don't want gays in the military..... They fought against it for years, but lost (they've never supported gay rights, it's against their core principles). That's how we got the "Don't ask Don't tell" compromise.

***PhilHos*** · 08-09-2018, 04:25 PM

(08-09-2018, 04:17 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well I certainly don't see these issues when Dems are running the country. It's only when Republicans run the country do we see them try to decide who can or can't be in the military based on things other than health.....

There wasn't a huge deal made about gays in the military until Clinton was president and he enacted his "don't ask, don't tell" policy, sooooooooooooooooooo...

***bfine32*** · 08-09-2018, 04:31 PM

(08-09-2018, 04:17 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well I certainly don't see these issues when Dems are running the country. It's only when Republicans run the country do we see them try to decide who can or can't be in the military based on things other than health.....

And no, they don't want gays in the military..... They fought against it for years, but lost (they've never supported gay rights, it's against their core principles). That's how we got the "Don't ask Don't tell" compromise.

The Democratic administration was the one that started the extreme vetting of the program started by Bush.

**jj22** · 08-09-2018, 05:32 PM

Well at least you haven't blamed Hillary yet for the Trump administration kicking out healthy folks who want to serve their country or show their dedication to their country from the military. (Unfortunately, the Bill card was used).

**BmorePat87** · 08-09-2018, 05:38 PM

(08-09-2018, 05:32 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well at least you haven't blamed Hillary yet for the Trump administration kicking out healthy folks who want to serve their country or show their dedication to their country from the military. (Unfortunately, the Bill card was used).

Honestly, bringing that up like this in response to them pointing out the fact that Bill signed don't ask don't tell is just as bad as someone else bringing it up as an actual response.

Either way it serves as an irrelevant distraction to the actual issue. Phil and Bfine gave you earnest and on topic responses without any sort of bs.

**jj22** · 08-09-2018, 06:15 PM

I brought up don't ask don't tell first and it was a compromise for the pressure from Republicans who were and still are against gays in the military. But ignore that if you want. However, they brought nothing new to the convo.

I must have missed where they discussed Trump Administration policy on the matter. If they agreed or not.... All I read was it was the fault of Bush and Clinton, Democrats (anyone but Trump). Maybe you read differently.

***PhilHos*** · 08-09-2018, 06:26 PM

(08-09-2018, 05:32 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well at least you haven't blamed Hillary yet for the Trump administration kicking out healthy folks who want to serve their country or show their dedication to their country from the military. (Unfortunately, the Bill card was used).

Spoken like a true independent and not an extreme anti-conservative, anti-Republican, pro-liberal, pro-Democrat independent. Whatever

(08-09-2018, 05:38 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Honestly, bringing that up like this in response to them pointing out the fact that Bill signed don't ask don't tell is just as bad as someone else bringing it up as an actual response.

Either way it serves as an irrelevant distraction to the actual issue. Phil and Bfine gave you earnest and on topic responses without any sort of bs.

:andy:

***PhilHos*** · 08-09-2018, 06:32 PM

(08-09-2018, 06:15 PM)jj22 Wrote: I brought up don't ask don't tell first and it was a compromise for the pressure from Republicans who were and still are against gays in the military. But ignore that if you want. However, they brought nothing new to the convo.

Sorry that bringing FACTS into this discussion bothers you.

You claimed it was only an issue when "Republicans were running the country". Bill Clinton tried to compromise with the 'don't ask don't tell' which didn't do anything but exacerbate the problem as conservatives were still upset at gays not being kicked out and gays were upset that they still had to hide their gayness. But, he was still a Democrat running the country when this was an issue.

(08-09-2018, 06:15 PM)jj22 Wrote: I must have missed where they discussed Trump Administration policy on the matter. If they agreed or not.... All I read was it was the fault of Bush and Clinton, Democrats (anyone but Trump). Maybe you read differently.

You need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills, man. I never blamed anyone. I only pointed out that people being turned away from the military for non-health related reasons was an issue when a Democrat (Bill Clinton) was running the country.

**jj22** · 08-10-2018, 09:59 AM

My voting record speaks for itself. Which you don't know so there's no reason to explain. But if you did, you'd realize how silly you sound. Many of us don't care for Trump. It's not that outrageous to not like a guy like that. It's more telling of folks who do like a lying, colluding, sexual assaulting con.

But thanks for admitting what I was saying all along which was Clinton was pressured by the Republican congress and their voters to do something about Gays in the military and came with that compromise.

Of course now Trump supporters want to act like it was all him and Dems (even as they admit he was pressured into a compromise).

Maybe some of your fellow Trump supporters will believe this new line of attack that Dems are the ones anti gay rights, and Republicans are for gays rights, and fought for the compromise to stop Clinton from kicking gays, and transgender Americans out of the Military....

Either way that doesn't explain or discuss what Trump has been doing now, which is what you guys want to avoid by attacking Clinton with this Fake News.

**Dill** · 08-10-2018, 10:24 AM

(08-10-2018, 09:59 AM)jj22 Wrote: My voting record speaks for itself. Which you don't know so there's no reason to explain. But if you did, you'd realize how silly you sound. Many of us don't are for Trump. It's not that outrageous to like a guy like that. It's more telling of folks who do like a lying, colluding, sexual assaulting con.

But thanks for admitting what I was saying all along which was Clinton was pressured by the Republican congress and their voters to do something about Gays in the military and came with that compromise.

Of course now Trump supporters want to act like it was all him and Dems (even as they admit he was pressured into a compromise).

Maybe some of your fellow Trump supporters will believe this new line of attack that Dems are the ones anti gay rights, and Republicans are for gays rights, and fought for the compromise to stop Clinton from kicking gays, and transgender Americans out of the Military....

Either way that doesn't explain or discuss what Trump has been doing now, which is what you guys want to avoid by attacking Clinton with this Fake News.

Yes. Gay rights activists pushed the issue to a head under Clinton and he was forced into a compromise by the conservative republican reaction. Pretty clear that dems as a party have been more progressive on this issue.

In any case the gop is no longer the party of Bush Dole and Reagan. Those were the good old days.

**jj22** · 08-10-2018, 11:20 AM

It's hard to sell me that it was Clinton and Dems against gays in the military and Republicans were the ones fighting for their rights to join and be open in the military all this time. But it's whatever. If that's their new spin (and it's clearly getting traction from other posters) then so beit. Maybe I've forgotten some history. It's possible.

**Millhouse** · 08-10-2018, 12:06 PM

(08-10-2018, 11:20 AM)jj22 Wrote: It's hard to sell me that it was Clinton and Dems against gays in the military and Republicans were the ones fighting for their rights to join and be open in the military all this time. But it's whatever. If that's their new spin (and it's clearly getting traction from other posters) then so beit. Maybe I've forgotten some history. It's possible.

If I had to make a guess, I would say up until 10 -20 years ago or so, most people from both sides of the aisle though more on the right side, weren't in favor of gays and transgenders serving openly in the military. Since then though the left has become much more 'progressive' on this than the right. Again, just a guess.

**GMDino** · 08-10-2018, 12:12 PM

(08-10-2018, 12:06 PM)Millhouse Wrote: If I had to make a guess, I would say up until 10 -20 years ago or so, most people from both sides of the aisle though more on the right side, weren't in favor of gays and transgenders serving openly in the military. Since then though the left has become much more 'progressive' on this than the right. Again, just a guess.

I *think* Clinton was against gay marriage too. I know Obama was and then he changed his mind.

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