I think this is a good idea

[masonbengals fan]

We should make an effort to get along on here even if we are on different sides of the isle. (Or in the middle of it) Some would say why bother but people should strive to get along whether in real life or on a internet message board. IMHO

Nothing wrong with putting your opinion on things out there for discussion. That's why we are here.

[*bfine32*]

(06-26-2020, 11:40 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I can’t find a link, but years ago there was a psychological experiment in which two participants were asked to slap each other, but only as hard as they thought they other person slapped them. If they slapped you softly, you slapped them back equally as softly. If they slapped you hard you slapped them back equally as hard. They could stop at any time.

Invariably, they kept slapping each other harder and harder until they were slappin’ the shit out of each other. Because they all thought they were slapped harder than the other person.

Here's the hoot.

I made a thread exactly like this a couple years back and got suspended for 3 months. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-27-2020, 06:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Here's the hoot.

I made a thread exactly like this a couple years back and got suspended for 3 months. 

There are over 4,000 threads in this sub-forum, but there haven’t been over 4,000 suspensions for starting threads. I’m 99% certain there is more to this story than just starting a thread. The alternative is god has a plan and it included you being suspended for three months for just starting a thread.

[*bfine32*]

(06-27-2020, 08:52 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: There are over 4,000 threads in this sub-forum, but there haven’t been over 4,000 suspensions for starting threads. I’m 99% certain there is more to this story than just starting a thread. The alternative is god has a plan and it included you being suspended for three months for just starting a thread.

I'm 100% certain there was more to it. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-27-2020, 09:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm 100% certain there was more to it. 

Oh, yeah; the liberal, deep state, thebengalsboard.com lizard people Illuminati conspiracy to punish you more than anyone else here.

[Dill]

(06-27-2020, 04:46 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: We should make an effort to get along on here even if we are on different sides of the isle. (Or in the middle of it) Some would say why bother but people should strive to get along whether in real life or on a internet message board. IMHO

Nothing wrong with putting your opinion on things out there for discussion. That's why we are here.

Agreed mason.

I like diversity much better than groupthink.  

[GMDino]

(06-27-2020, 04:46 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: We should make an effort to get along on here even if we are on different sides of the isle. (Or in the middle of it) Some would say why bother but people should strive to get along whether in real life or on a internet message board. IMHO

Nothing wrong with putting your opinion on things out there for discussion. That's why we are here.

Agree 100%.

Sometimes though people believe their opinions are facts.  And more than a few times they don't want to admit they were wrong.

That kills discussions.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-28-2020, 01:15 PM)GMDino Wrote: Agree 100%.

Sometimes though people believe their opinions are facts.

You and your boy Fred being among them.  Be the change you want to see.  We'll all benefit.

Quote:  And more than a few times they don't want to admit they were wrong.

I've admitted this on several occasions.  I can't recall you ever doing so except in your enormous foot in mouth debut in this forum that you don't like to talk about.

Quote:That kills discussions.

So does flippant, sarcastic condescension.  Again, be the change you want to see.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-27-2020, 04:36 PM)Dill Wrote: I don't think "smarmy posts" and "condescension" are big problems driving people away.

Well, the rep messages I get from numerous posters would indicate otherwise.  No, I'm not going to out them, that's their story to tell and I don't care if you believe me or not.

Quote:Outright personal insults is still the main reason threads degenerate and get shut down. They drive people away from such threads. They're a lot easier to see than "condescension." And that could account for my "hypocrisy" with regards to Dino. If someone demanded I produce an example of a Dino personal attack, much less a series of them bold and frequent enough to drive someone from the list, I could not.  I wonder if anyone else could.

Someone certainly could as he's been suspended from this sub forum numerous times for that exact behavior.  Fred is probably the leader in suspensions for a poster who hasn't been outright banned.  Odd that you seem to be unaware of this.

Quote:I can produce instances of "condescension" as referred to in 2 above. That is, people boxed in by the persons or principles they have chosen to defend. But that is a structural problem inherent to such positions. Until the list is turned into a "safe space" for posting only good things about candidates, I don't see that changing.

The only people demanding "safe spaces" are the OP and the like minded.  I'd be fine with a free for all.  The problem is too many people in this sub forum have proven they can't handle that.  You don't see what you don't want to see.  That's OK, but be aware that it's also well known.

[GMDino]

(06-28-2020, 10:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You and your boy Fred being among them.  Be the change you want to see.  We'll all benefit.

I try to label my opinions as such. I try to provide links and sources more than many on the board.

I do try to do better if I make a mistake. Thanks.

(06-28-2020, 10:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I've admitted this on several occasions.  I can't recall you ever doing so except in your enormous foot in mouth debut in this forum that you don't like to talk about.

OK, I didn't speak to anyone or mention anyone. You're talking about the first time I was wrong, certainly not the last. I have spoken of it often on these boards and it wasn't even my "debut"...lol. But yeah I was wrong and admitted it. And it seems that has been held against me since then. But that's not on me...that's on whoever wants to use it as a reason to think I am wrong about other things.

(06-28-2020, 10:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So does flippant, sarcastic condescension.  Again, be the change you want to see.

I don't think I understand where this part came from based on what was quoted? Whatever the motivation or thinking I do try and am trying. No one has to accept or believe that. That's on me...not anyone else.

[GMDino]

(06-28-2020, 10:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Well, the rep messages I get from numerous posters would indicate otherwise.  No, I'm not going to out them, that's their story to tell and I don't care if you believe me or not.



Someone certainly could as he's been suspended from this sub forum numerous times for that exact behavior.  Fred is probably the leader in suspensions for a poster who hasn't been outright banned.  Odd that you seem to be unaware of this.


The only people demanding "safe spaces" are the OP and the like minded.  I'd be fine with a free for all.  The problem is too many people in this sub forum have proven they can't handle that.  You don't see what you don't want to see.  That's OK, but be aware that it's also well known.

Just wanted to respond since I'm the OP.  I didn't ask for a "safe space"  I suggested that maybe going back to the forum being closed on the weekends would help cool things down.  I didn't threaten to leave, complain that I didn't like how I was spoken to or claim others tell me I'm right and it's everyone else's fault.

I can handle this forum but thought that maybe it was sliding back toward the days when the mods had to have a heavier hand and bans were more routine.

If I wasn't clear about that I apologize.  I mean the forum is still open this weekend and I'm still posting...lol.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-28-2020, 10:42 PM)GMDino Wrote: I try to label my opinions as such.  I try to provide links and sources more than many on the board.

I do try to do better if I make a mistake.  Thanks.

You're welcome.

Quote:OK, I didn't speak to anyone or mention anyone.  You're talking about the first time I was wrong, certainly not the last.  I have spoken of it often on these boards and it wasn't even my "debut"...lol.  But yeah I was wrong and admitted it.  And it seems that has been held against me since then.  But that's not on me...that's on whoever wants to use it as a reason to think I am wrong about other things.

It pretty much was your debut, you didn't post in P&R pre-Ferguson.  To say your initial performance left much to be desired is an understatement.  If you have multiple instances of you admitting you were wrong please feel free to post them.

Quote:I don't think I understand where this part came from based on what was quoted?  Whatever the motivation or thinking I do try and am trying.  No one has to accept or believe that.  That's on me...not anyone else.

Ohh, you think we're only talking about this thread?  I thought it was abundantly clear we were talking about posting history in its entirety.  Now that you know that you can take another stab at your response.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-28-2020, 10:45 PM)GMDino Wrote: Just wanted to respond since I'm the OP.  I didn't ask for a "safe space"  I suggested that maybe going back to the forum being closed on the weekends would help cool things down.  I didn't threaten to leave, complain that I didn't like how I was spoken to or claim others tell me I'm right and it's everyone else's fault.

You've claimed you didn't like how you were spoke to on numerous occasions, please don't pretend otherwise.  I will admit that you did only ask for he resumption of the weekend shut down.

Quote:I can handle this forum but thought that maybe it was sliding back toward the days when the mods had to have a heavier hand and bans were more routine.

Given your history of complaining about the posts of others I don't think I can believe you here.

Quote:If I wasn't clear about that I apologize.  I mean the forum is still open this weekend and I'm still posting...lol.

Fair enough.  It was clear.  I suppose I was responding more to Dill's assertions than your initial post.

[Dill]

(06-28-2020, 10:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Well, the rep messages I get from numerous posters would indicate otherwise.  No, I'm not going to out them, that's their story to tell and I don't care if you believe me or not.
Someone certainly could as he's been suspended from this sub forum numerous times for that exact behavior.  Fred is probably the leader in suspensions for a poster who hasn't been outright banned.  Odd that you seem to be unaware of this.
The only people demanding "safe spaces" are the OP and the like minded.  I'd be fine with a free for all.  The problem is too many people in this sub forum have proven they can't handle that.  You don't see what you don't want to see.  That's OK, but be aware that it's also well known.

Why do you keep referencing people who agree with you IN PRIVATE, as if that somehow PROVED your impression?  That's the opposite of actually citing examples.  If you don't care whether I believe you, then who is your audience, really? 

Same when you tell me "be aware that it's also well known." As if just saying so makes it so. Non-proof added to an empty claim.

I get that you don't like the rule against personal attack. You are comfortable with nasty. But I reject your framing of people who "can't handle that" as the problem.

A "free for all" of personal attack disrupts civil discourse. When responsible arguments are met with quips and nasty insults, rational debate breaks down. That gets threads shut down and drives people away from the Message Board, and that's why the mods suspend people for personal attacks, but not "smarmy posts" or "condescension." On analogy, it's the same reason pro football players aren't allowed to punch and kick the other team during a game.

Further, claiming that supposedly smarmy condescending posts are somehow just as bad as personal insults just erases the important distinction between these behaviors. That's the message board equivalent of a frivolous lawsuit.

Not saying that condescension doesn't exist or can't be made plain. It is certainly there when someone claims to be laughing at others' idiocy or to demand deference claiming he just knows more. Few people do that, but those that do do it pretty regularly. After that, most cases are ambiguous, may only be in the eye of the beholder. People losing arguments often perceive condescension even when there is none, especially if they have previously signaled tremendous confidence in their argumentative skills. It is probably hard for someone NOT to feel some condescension if flagged for uncivil behavior.   Moderators could hardly sort out the intended from the merely perceived in such cases, in contrast to direct personal insults like name calling.

Finally, I've noticed many personal attacks arise precisely when another poster is making a good, evidence based argument--and the attacker appears unable to respond in kind. I.e. he cannot "handle it."  Like a football player who knows the game is lost and slugs the guy across from him.
 

[fredtoast]

(06-28-2020, 10:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You and your boy Fred being among them.  Be the change you want to see.  We'll all benefit.

I already did change.  I posted it here in this very thread.  I editied a post to remove a pesonal attack against you.

And you immediately responded with another personal attack against me.

Are you saying that YOU don't have to change anuything about the way you post?  Why should I change if you refuse to?

I don't really understand what your point is.

[Dill]

(06-29-2020, 11:05 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I already did change.  I posted it here in this very thread.  I editied a post to remove a pesonal attack against you.
And you immediately responded with another personal attack against me.
Are you saying that YOU don't have to change anuything about the way you post?  Why should I change if you refuse to?
I don't really understand what your point is.

Don't go there. Don't lower your standards because another poster won't raise his.

This isn't just an ethical recommendation. It is a practical one for anyone interested in making and following quality political arguments.

People who resort frequently to personal attacks* are usually more comfortable with that.  Every debate ends in a "tie" that way. 

But they are not comfortable if you don't take the bait and continue making rational arguments on topic. That requires more patience and skill. 

So the moment someone begins a personal attack against you is exactly the moment you don't want to return it in kind.

That's the moment the other guy has reached the limit of his ability to explain/defend claims, and senses things won't go his way if debaters stick to rational discussion kept on topic.  If you return a personal attack, that's his out. His input suddenly good as yours.

If enough posters on this MB recognized and agreed with these points, personal attacks would soon be a thing of the past. Personal attack is not the only means of deflecting arguments, but it is the most damaging to civil discourse and easiest to flag. No threads would be shut down. People might still leave if they could not effectively defend their political views, but that's not the same as being driven away because they could never sufficiently articulate them without drawing personal attacks.

*I am excluding here people who rarely engage in personal attack, but may do so if they suddenly feel, or are, attacked. In such cases it is a verbal "flee or fight" response.

[fredtoast]

(06-29-2020, 12:28 PM)Dill Wrote: Don't go there. Don't lower your standards because another poster won't raise his.

I agree.  I will continue to promote civil discoure even if others don't