I would like to ask the left to give me their position on illegal immigration.

[*michaelsean*]

I will tell you my perception is that the left doesn't really care. They don't think it's a problem. I mean anyone who brings up anything about it is labeled a racist as if it's our fault that the vast vast majority of people coming here illegally have darker skin. Which makes me think it's more of a political thing for them.

As I said, that's my perception. So I'll ask. Do you think we should have open borders? If you are not for open borders, do you think that once someone gets here, and let's say away from the border, that they should be allowed to stay as long as they have no criminal record?

I'm just honestly curious because I really don't know what the stance of the average liberal is.

[*michaelsean*]

I don't know if it would work or not, but one thing I'd do, and this depends on how realistic it is, is to make the system quicker and easier, and raise the limits if possible. Now I don't know if quicker and easier is a possibility. Maybe there are good reasons it is the way it is.

[Belsnickel]

(02-20-2017, 06:24 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I don't know if it would work or not, but one thing I'd do, and this depends on how realistic it is, is to make the system quicker and easier, and raise the limits if possible. Now I don't know if quicker and easier is a possibility. Maybe there are good reasons it is the way it is.

This is one of the big things to me, is making it easier. But I would also like us to focus on penalizing those that employ the undocumented immigrants, or those that traffic them. I don't think it should be like "hey, you're in, good on you!", but rethinking our policies would be good.

Being here illegally is not a crime. It is against the law, but it is a civil issue, not criminal. The crime that almost all of them are guilty of is illegal entry, which is a misdemeanor. The statute of limitations for almost all federal crimes is 5 years. Why can't we have a path to citizenship in place with that in mind?

As to the racism bit, I've never really heard that bandied about as casually as you seem to have. I see it used when people talk in a negative way about groups of people with information not based in facts but instead in misleading propaganda, but the idea of improving our border security and deporting undocumented immigrants is not something that I have seen generate that kind of label so readily.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-20-2017, 06:41 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is one of the big things to me, is making it easier. But I would also like us to focus on penalizing those that employ the undocumented immigrants, or those that traffic them. I don't think it should be like "hey, you're in, good on you!", but rethinking our policies would be good.

Being here illegally is not a crime. It is against the law, but it is a civil issue, not criminal. The crime that almost all of them are guilty of is illegal entry, which is a misdemeanor. The statute of limitations for almost all federal crimes is 5 years. Why can't we have a path to citizenship in place with that in mind?

As to the racism bit, I've never really heard that bandied about as casually as you seem to have. I see it used when people talk in a negative way about groups of people with information not based in facts but instead in misleading propaganda, but the idea of improving our border security and deporting undocumented immigrants is not something that I have seen generate that kind of label so readily.

Yes I should have included focusing on penalizing employers.  I assume the majority of them hire illegals because they are cheaper, not to help them out.

You can find the label right on this board.  It usually includes the term "brown people" to insinuate that is your motive.

[Belsnickel]

(02-20-2017, 06:45 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Yes I should have included focusing on penalizing employers.  I assume the majority of them hire illegals because they are cheaper, not to help them out.

And because they will do the jobs. I live in what was once the turkey capital of the world, I'm in poultry country. We have a lot of undocumented immigrants here that work in those plants. I know plenty of jobless citizens that turn their nose up at the work here. It doesn't pay bad, but it's rough work.

(02-20-2017, 06:45 PM)michaelsean Wrote: You can find the label right on this board.  It usually includes the term "brown people" to insinuate that is your motive.

I usually start skipping posts when name calling ensues, so it may be that I just move on past that sort of thing on here.

[CKwi88]

Full disclosure: I'm a former illegal immigrant (not to US) and work with illegal immigrants on a daily basis in the court system.


In the vast majority of my experiences, these people just want to come here and make a better life for themselves. They are not the drug carrying, 8.75 month pregnant, welfare sucking people that some paint them to be. A lot of them live in crap conditions, are treated like crap by their employers, and yet they still pay taxes on their earnings as well as contributing to society in a productive manner.

Open borders are about as good an idea as wanting to build a wall along the border, and I've seen very few reasonable people advocate for an open border. It's as idealistic and unrealistic as it gets.

To me, the process needs to be streamlined. The "well come here legally" argument has its merits, but oftentimes that process is more a question of how much money do you have. When my wife and I came back to the US, it was an exorbitant amount of money for lawyers, forms, transcripts, official documents. I'm lucky enough to count myself among those who have the monetary means. Not many of the people coming here seeking a better life are as lucky. And "well tough noogies" isn't a good enough response for me.

Maybe it's my time living abroad, but I realize just how lucky most of us are to have been born in the US. A lot of places in South/Central America really suck. So I have a hard time condemning people who come here looking for a better life. I wish everyone were so lucky.

In short, I'm all for letting people come here to work. They often do a lot of jobs that Americans won't do. So if they come here, legally with a tourist visa that expires, or otherwise and they find work? Let 'em work. Give 'em a visa that allows them to work that is renewable every two years. Make sure they're holding a job and supporting themselves. After a certain amount of time, let them ask to be naturalized. They get caught peddling drugs or involved with violent crime? GTFO. They come back illegally after? If they get so much as a traffic citation GTFO again.

Give them a chance. If they blow it, that's on them. I'd wager 90% of them will take advantage of it.


Unfortunately, For every 100 illegals I run across in the court system that aren't violent criminals, there's that one who crossed the border illegally to murder his daughter. We can all guess which gets the most attention.

[Benton]

(02-20-2017, 06:41 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is one of the big things to me, is making it easier. But I would also like us to focus on penalizing those that employ the undocumented immigrants, or those that traffic them. I don't think it should be like "hey, you're in, good on you!", but rethinking our policies would be good.

.

that's pretty much my stance.

as far as the liberal opinion goes, most dont seem to think its an issue. And when it is mentioned, its usually more about using the system already in place. We have immigration laws, sometimes fairly strict ones. We just don't fund their enforcement.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

Having worked in restaurants a majority of my adult life, and in retail.  I've worked with a ton of immigrants, and most I know are just trying to secure a better life doing the work that many of our citizens don't want to do.  Now that being said, the best way to enforce illegal immigration IMO is to crack down on employers who hire them.  It's ironic to me that we are a nation of immigrants, yet we shun immigrants.  We have a long history of it, Irish, Italians, Jews, Germans, Mexicans, and on and on...etc. All have been persecuted upon arrival.  People that are migrating to this country are doing so out of extreme desperation.

Most are trying to migrate here because of war or extreme poverty (or both).  Where some of these people have had to live, I couldn't fathom.  It's amazing to me that so many lack empathy for them.  I couldn't think of how bad things would have to get to pick up my entire life and move to a country that I didn't understand the language, customs, and culture. It's not something one takes lightly.

On that note vetting is needed we can't just let anybody in. However I believe the process we've been using works, but throwing the baby out with the bath water (as Trumps policy orders) is a bad idea.  Many innocents get caught in wide sweep, breaking up family's.  I read the USA TODAY almost daily and I read an article about a woman who'd been here since she was 14yo and was being deported leaving behind her American husband and children.  She has been denied citizenship, because she's been convicted of a crime.  Her crime...entering the USA illegally when she was 14yo.  That is devastating, so yea IMO some things need to change.

[Au165]

I consider myself somewhere in the middle, but I'll answer anyways. I simply don't think it's that big of an issue, yet gets turned into one by both parties. I think it is used as something politicians can point to on both sides as a platform but in actuality means very little to the majority of the people in the country and their problems. It isn't the reason why many of the unemployed are unemployed, it isn't the reason for the majority of our crime, it isn't the main reason for rising healthcare costs, it isn't the reason we are fighting wars in the middle east, and it isn't the reason for the high racial tensions in the country.

We spend all the time discussing something that really should be a peripheral issue, but it has somehow consumed the country.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-21-2017, 03:34 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Having worked in restaurants a majority of my adult life, and in retail.  I've worked with a ton of immigrants, and most I know are just trying to secure a better life doing the work that many of our citizens don't want to do.  Now that being said, the best way to enforce illegal immigration IMO is to crack down on employers who hire them.  It's ironic to me that we are a nation of immigrants, yet we shun immigrants.  We have a long history of it, Irish, Italians, Jews, Germans, Mexicans, and on and on...etc. All have been persecuted upon arrival.  People that are migrating to this country are doing so out of extreme desperation.

Most are trying to migrate here because of war or extreme poverty (or both).  Where some of these people have had to live, I couldn't fathom.  It's amazing to me that so many lack empathy for them.  I couldn't think of how bad things would have to get to pick up my entire life and move to a country that I didn't understand the language, customs, and culture. It's not something one takes lightly.

On that note vetting is needed we can't just let anybody in. However I believe the process we've been using works, but throwing the baby out with the bath water (as Trumps policy orders) is a bad idea.  Many innocents get caught in wide sweep, breaking up family's.  I read the USA TODAY almost daily and I read an article about a woman who'd been here since she was 14yo and was being deported leaving behind her American husband and children.  She has been denied citizenship, because she's been convicted of a crime.  Her crime...entering the USA illegally when she was 14yo.  That is devastating, so yea IMO some things need to change.

I agree that the vast majority of legal and illegal immigrants are here for nothing more to better their lives, and I believe they work hard at it.  

OK let's look at the empathy?  Where does it end?  If we do crack down on employers, then where does that leave those they would have hired?

[GMDino]

(02-21-2017, 09:46 AM)Au165 Wrote: I consider myself somewhere in the middle, but I'll answer anyways. I simply don't think it's that big of an issue, yet gets turned into one by both parties. I think it is used as something politicians can point to on both sides as a platform but in actuality means very little to the majority of the people in the country and their problems. It isn't the reason why many of the unemployed are unemployed, it isn't the reason for the majority of our crime, it isn't the main reason for rising healthcare costs, it isn't the reason we are fighting wars in the middle east, and it isn't the reason for the high racial tensions in the country.

We spend all the time discussing something that really should be a peripheral issue, but it has somehow consumed the country.

I think all of the answer have been very good but the bolded sentence was what I was going to say also.

Hundreds of millions of people in the US and so few problems with immigrants and that seems to be the fear du jour.

But as has also already been said we as a country to love to fear monger about "them" coming here and destroying "our" way of life.  The "them" just changes from generation to generation.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-21-2017, 10:05 AM)GMDino Wrote: I think all of the answer have been very good but the bolded sentence was what I was going to say also.

Hundreds of millions of people in the US and so few problems with immigrants and that seems to be the fear du jour.

But as has also already been said we as a country to love to fear monger about "them" coming here and destroying "our" way of life.  The "them" just changes from generation to generation.

For me it's not fear, it's just do you have borders or don't you?  Do you let whomever wants to come in stay as long as they get past the first line of defense?

[BmorePat87]

(02-21-2017, 10:33 AM)michaelsean Wrote: For me it's not fear, it's just do you have borders or don't you?  Do you let whomever wants to come in stay as long as they get past the first line of defense?

If they contribute to the economy and do not commit crimes? Sure.


From a center left, quasi libertarian perspective, I really do not care if someone is here illegally as long as they are not criminals. 

[*michaelsean*]

(02-21-2017, 10:48 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: If they contribute to the economy and do not commit crimes? Sure.


From a center left, quasi libertarian perspective, I really do not care if someone is here illegally as long as they are not criminals. 

So if you are OK with them being here once they get here, do we attempt to stop them at all?  

[GMDino]

(02-21-2017, 10:33 AM)michaelsean Wrote: For me it's not fear, it's just do you have borders or don't you?  Do you let whomever wants to come in stay as long as they get past the first line of defense?

Sure we do.  But, again, it's such a small problem.  

I'm sure someone will come along to tell us the billions of dollars they cost us or how much crime the do though.

[Au165]

(02-21-2017, 10:54 AM)michaelsean Wrote: So if you are OK with them being here once they get here, do we attempt to stop them at all?  

I'm not sure you do. I think borders are for stopping other countries from taking over your sovereign power not to limit the flow of citizens between countries. As it was pointed out, if they aren't committing crimes then it really isn't an issue, if they do then they are treated like the citizens of the country that also commit crimes.

[BmorePat87]

(02-21-2017, 10:54 AM)michaelsean Wrote: So if you are OK with them being here once they get here, do we attempt to stop them at all?  

Sure, particularly because those who get them here often take advantage of them and it becomes a humanitarian crisis. Also, because we should observe our borders.

I just question the current cost of enforcement. 

[*michaelsean*]

(02-21-2017, 11:04 AM)Au165 Wrote: I'm not sure you do. I think borders are for stopping other countries from taking over your sovereign power not to limit the flow of citizens between countries. As it was pointed out, if they aren't committing crimes then it really isn't an issue, if they do then they are treated like the citizens of the country that also commit crimes.

So you are thinking more like travel between the states is.

[Au165]

(02-21-2017, 11:21 AM)michaelsean Wrote: So you are thinking more like travel between the states is.

Pretty much. We live in a different world than the one that existed when hard borders were developed.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-21-2017, 11:25 AM)Au165 Wrote: Pretty much. We live in a different world than the one that existed when hard borders were developed.

And do you think we have a right to control our borders, and just shouldn't or that we don't have the right in the first place?