ICE Raids

[GMDino]

(07-23-2019, 03:12 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Intentionally misrepresenting Dino's posts multiple times is trolling.


As to the article he posted: it's scary to think an American citizen can go 3 weeks without any help as they are unjustly detained. It's also sad that a kid who grew up here and wants to be an American is being treated in a way where we try to discourage him from seeking citizenship, instead seeking to lump him up with gang members and drug traffickers.

Solution: protect dreamers. Give them a pathway. Don't use a great program as a bargaining chip for a useless wall.

Now comes the Trump Admin policy of deportation without due process .  What could go wrong?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(07-23-2019, 03:12 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Intentionally misrepresenting Dino's posts multiple times is trolling.


As to the article he posted: it's scary to think an American citizen can go 3 weeks without any help as they are unjustly detained. It's also sad that a kid who grew up here and wants to be an American is being treated in a way where we try to discourage him from seeking citizenship, instead seeking to lump him up with gang members and drug traffickers.

Solution: protect dreamers. Give them a pathway. Don't use a great program as a bargaining chip for a useless wall.

I didn't misrepresent his post, I took him to task for his choice of words.
What he said and means are not the same thing.

Anyways, yes it's terrible that they have kept a USC (not illegal alien) in custody for 3 months. I would like to know more of the story, if these "kids" have MS-13 tattoos on them, or even a criminal history. If they do, then does that change your stance about them?

[GMDino]

(07-23-2019, 03:12 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Intentionally misrepresenting Dino's posts multiple times is trolling.


As to the article he posted: it's scary to think an American citizen can go 3 weeks without any help as they are unjustly detained. It's also sad that a kid who grew up here and wants to be an American is being treated in a way where we try to discourage him from seeking citizenship, instead seeking to lump him up with gang members and drug traffickers.

Solution: protect dreamers. Give them a pathway. Don't use a great program as a bargaining chip for a useless wall.

(07-23-2019, 04:01 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I didn't misrepresent his post, I took him to task for his choice of words.
What he said and means are not the same thing.

Anyways, yes it's terrible that they have kept a USC (not illegal alien) in custody for 3 months. I would like to know more of the story, if these "kids" have MS-13 tattoos on them, or even a criminal history. If they do, then does that change your stance about them?

[*bfine32*]

(07-23-2019, 04:01 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I didn't misrepresent his post, I took him to task for his choice of words.
What he said and means are not the same thing.

Anyways, yes it's terrible that they have kept a USC (not illegal alien) in custody for 3 months. I would like to know more of the story, if these "kids" have MS-13 tattoos on them, or even a criminal history. If they do, then does that change your stance about them?

If you were a liberal bringinga conservative to task Pat would have said you're simply using Dino's words against him and perhaps applauded for "calling him out". Being as it's the other way around you are trolling. One thing you will not find in here is someone who just calls balls and strikes

[BmorePat87]

I made two very charged posts calling out what I saw as BS and trolling, which is rampant in PnR. I deleted them and I apologize for making them. I won't help contribute to the problem.

[BmorePat87]

(07-23-2019, 04:01 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I didn't misrepresent his post, I took him to task for his choice of words.
What he said and means are not the same thing.

I disagree with this entirely and I hope going back and reading his posts you can see how you misrepresented him. 

Quote:Anyways, yes it's terrible that they have kept a USC (not illegal alien) in custody for 3 months. I would like to know more of the story, if these "kids" have MS-13 tattoos on them, or even a criminal history. If they do, then does that change your stance about them?

The 18 year old's hypothetical criminal background wouldn't make me support a detention like that, especially for the reason he was detained.

I also do not automatically assume kids are criminals and gang members, but if the 17 year old was and it was a reason for being detained, I obviously would not lump him in with the group known as "dreamers" that I support wholeheartedly. 

[*bfine32*]

It appears some of the fine activists of Nashville support and defend lawlessness:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ice-tried-arrest-undocumented-man-213717733.html

Quote:Residents in a suburban Nashville neighborhood came together to protect an undocumented man as Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officers attempted to arrest him Monday morning.

After a four-hour attempted arrest — during which time the undocumented man and his young son barricaded themselves inside a van parked in front of their home — ICE agents left, and neighbors and activists on the scene created a human chain to allow the family to get indoors.

What's the word for refusing to abide by a law simply because you disagree with it?

[treee]

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

[BmorePat87]

(07-23-2019, 09:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What's the word for refusing to abide by a law simply because you disagree with it?

civil disobedience

[Vas Deferens]

(07-23-2019, 11:16 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: civil disobedience

The Declaration of Independence?

[*bfine32*]

(07-23-2019, 11:59 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: The Declaration of Independence?

I hope they get it. 

[*bfine32*]

(07-23-2019, 11:16 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: civil disobedience

Disobedience is a good word. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-23-2019, 11:16 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: civil disobedience

I do hope you'll back up the next California gun owner who is prosecuted under the states insane gun control laws.  Somehow I doubt people will be forming a human chain to prevent their being taken into custody.

[BmorePat87]

(07-24-2019, 12:11 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I do hope you'll back up the next California gun owner who is prosecuted under the states insane gun control laws.  Somehow I doubt people will be forming a human chain to prevent their being taken into custody.

I never declared support for the man or people referenced, I just provided the term that Bfine apparently didn't know. In this case I am cool with what they did as long as he didn't have a criminal background.

If you give me specific cases, I can make a case by case call on whether I'd support someone. I feel like my position on gun control has been pretty moderate and I often agree with you on reactionary policies that do not address the cause of individual mass shootings.

[BmorePat87]

(07-24-2019, 12:07 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Disobedience is a good word. 

Props to Thoreau for coining it. 

[*bfine32*]

(07-24-2019, 01:27 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I never declared support for the man or people referenced, I just provided the term that Bfine apparently didn't know. In this case I am cool with what they did as long as he didn't have a criminal background.

If you give me specific cases, I can make a case by case call on whether I'd support someone. I feel like my position on gun control has been pretty moderate and I often agree with you on reactionary policies that do not address the cause of individual mass shootings.

I asked the question well knowing meanings to certain phrases I just was curious to see what terms folks would provide. Would you also agree the term obstruction could be used or terms such as aiding and abetting?  How about criminal?

Like all those ICE is looking to deport he had been issued a final deportation order that he has failed to obey. 

I'm hearing a lot of Dems telling me this morning that no one is above the law; do you agree with them?

[BmorePat87]

(07-24-2019, 02:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Would you also agree the term obstruction could be used or terms such as aiding and abetting?  How about criminal?

Yes those terms apply as civil disobedience is a willful violation of a law considered by the protestor to be an unjust law, hence engaging in a criminal act as a means of protest.

Quote:Like all those ICE is looking to deport he had been issued a final deportation order that he has failed to obey. 


I'm hearing a lot of Dems telling me this morning that no one is above the law; do you agree with them?

No one is above the law. People engaging in civil disobedience do not believe themselves to be above the law, they believe the specific law to be flawed and worth violating, knowing full well the ramifications, considering it important to their cause to demonstrate a perceived immorality in the law. 

[*bfine32*]

(07-24-2019, 03:40 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Yes those terms apply as civil disobedience is a willful violation of a law considered by the protestor to be an unjust law, hence engaging in a criminal act as a means of protest.




No one is above the law. People engaging in civil disobedience do not believe themselves to be above the law, they believe the specific law to be flawed and worth violating, knowing full well the ramifications, considering it important to their cause to demonstrate a perceived immorality in the law. 

1. Do you call all these instances civil disobedience or only the population who defy laws you don't like. Where the Oregon occupiers exercising civil disobedience? 


2. Obviously they felt the man they were protecting was above the law. But as usual, we'll not see eye to eye on this. 

3. You stated you supported the actions of the "human chain" if the man had no criminal record. Is entering the country illegally and defying a final deportation order breaking the law? 

When folks try to find common ground they'll state "No one is Pro Illegal immigration"  but when put to task; their true feelings show. 

[BmorePat87]

(07-24-2019, 03:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. Do you call all these instances civil disobedience or only the population who defy laws you don't like. Where the Oregon occupiers exercising civil disobedience? 

An armed, violent takeover is not "peaceful" so it's not "civil". I have no doubt that they believed it to be, but the moment you're using armed force, it's terrorism not civil disobedience. 

Quote:2. Obviously they felt the man they were protecting was above the law. But as usual, we'll not see eye to eye on this. 

You're free to believe this.

Quote:3. You stated you supported the actions of the "human chain" if the man had no criminal record. Is entering the country illegally and defying a final deportation order breaking the law? 

Entering illegally is considered a crime. Unauthorized presence is a civil offense. I do not know if he illegally entered or overstayed a visa.  I will say that I do not consider merely illegally entering the US to qualify as a criminal background anymore than me hosting poker games at my house qualifies me with having one. I fully support going after actual criminals, not fathers and sons trying to contribute to this country. 

Quote:When folks try to find common ground they'll state "No one is Pro Illegal immigration"  but when put to task; their true feelings show. 

You have to understand that many wish to find an easy path to citizenship or legal residency to reduce illegal immigration, but when support for that hinges on also being open to spending tens of billions on a wall, you start to see the good faith leave and people will defend their neighbors regardless of documentation status. Deportation numbers were highest under Obama, as were border security numbers. People just sought to distinguish between people harming the nation and people trying to contribute to it.

[*bfine32*]

(07-24-2019, 04:13 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: 1. An armed, violent takeover is not "peaceful" so it's not "civil". I have no doubt that they believed it to be, but the moment you're using armed force, it's terrorism not civil disobedience. 






2. You're free to believe this.



3. Entering illegally is considered a crime. Unauthorized presence is a civil offense. I do not know if he illegally entered or overstayed a visa.  I will say that I do not consider merely illegally entering the US to qualify as a criminal background anymore than me hosting poker games at my house qualifies me with having one. I fully support going after actual criminals, not fathers and sons trying to contribute to this country. 



4. You have to understand that many wish to find an easy path to citizenship or legal residency to reduce illegal immigration, but when support for that hinges on also being open to spending tens of billions on a wall, you start to see the good faith leave and people will defend their neighbors regardless of documentation status. Deportation numbers were highest under Obama, as were border security numbers. People just sought to distinguish between people harming the nation and people trying to contribute to it.

1. Suppose I mis-remembered the violent forced takeover in Oregon. I thought they occupied a deserted place in the middle of nowhere. 

2. Thanks

3. He is breaking the law, he's had his day in court, and the decision was made that he should be deported. You can paint it how you will and apply your POV to it, but some believe we are a Nation of Laws

4. I've said many times: I give 2 shit's about a wall and I have no idea what it has to do with the subject at hand. You also have to understand that many feel those trying to immigrate legally shouldn't have to get in line behind people who illegally jumped in front of them.