If This The End Of The United States?

[Benton]

(01-13-2021, 05:21 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Would any of you care to elaborate on how any of my points are wrong or won't come to fruition or am I just supposed to accept no because you all said it?

We just survived a failed coup that attempted to keep in place the adminstration that tried to fend off a pandemic led by a real estate developer, advocated seizing personal property and forgoing due process, advocated violence against detractors and denied people their first amendment rights.

That administration is being replaced with 'obama the sequel' which was also supposed to turn the country into a liberal wasteland. But even when Obama had the votes to push anything he wanted, all he did was try to pass healthcare reform. Crappy healthcare reform , but it was a far cry from what people said was going to happen.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(01-13-2021, 05:38 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: The Second Amendment has been under attack since Regan got scared black people in California had guns and were against systemic racism. Blame conservatives.

You are 100% correct about this (I could go into more detail but your point is taken).  However, much like saying the Democrats are the party of slavery, it is wholly inaccurate to put any type of gun control within the last few decades at the feet of the GOP.  The Dems have wholly embraced chipping away at the Second Amendment and they are the only ones doing so.  Who started it isn't really relevant at this point.

[Belsnickel]

(01-13-2021, 04:53 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: What I mean by the end of the United States is it this the end of the things that made the country great?!

The end of our basic freedoms?

Mmm, no. Our basic freedoms are still very strong.

(01-13-2021, 04:53 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Biden's vision reflects a more liberal landscape, and Ronald Reagan said "if Fascism ever comes to America, it will come in the way of Liberalism."

And to quote Sinclair Lewis, "[b]ut he saw too that in America the struggle was befogged by the fact that the worst Fascists were they who disowned the word 'Fascism' and preached enslavement to Capitalism under the style of Constitutional and Traditional Native American Liberty."

Fascism has been in America for a long time, and Reagan was one who helped perpetuate it.

(01-13-2021, 04:53 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: The government is too big and has too much control.

I won't disagree, here, but the devil would be in the details if we were to compare our attitudes on it.

(01-13-2021, 04:53 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: The First Amendment is under attack because everyone is so easily offended by everything. We're raising a generation of people that are offended by everything and need safe spaces when things don't go their way.

This isn't an affront to our freedom of speech. Everyone still has the right to say what they please. However, no one has ever had the right to a platform from which to say it. No one has ever had the right to be free from societal consequences.

(01-13-2021, 04:53 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: The Second Amendment is obviously under attack and that needs no explanation.

Not going to deny this.

(01-13-2021, 04:53 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Biden and the Dems want to brainwash people into thinking that the government is daddy and should control everything.

Brainwashing claims when you're a part of Cult 45 are laughable.

(01-13-2021, 04:53 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: There's more, but is this the end of the country as we know it? Will all these snowflake college kids keep voting Democrat even if the next four years are a complete failure? Are we on our way to an authoritarian government?

Ah, snowflake Democrats when Republicans were so upset about losing an election they tried to overturn it by disrupting a legislative process. Snowflake claims about the left just don't work anymore, bud.

[Belsnickel]

(01-13-2021, 07:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You are 100% correct about this (I could go into more detail but your point is taken).  However, much like saying the Democrats are the party of slavery, it is wholly inaccurate to put any type of gun control within the last few decades at the feet of the GOP.  The Dems have wholly embraced chipping away at the Second Amendment and they are the only ones doing so.  Who started it isn't really relevant at this point.

Pretty much. Though interestingly enough, some of the first court opinions on the matter are due to gun control attempts by Kentucky and Arkansas. In the 20th century, though, the NFA passed in 1934 was really the jumping off point for much of the gun control we know, today.

I know you know this, but this is kind of for those that may not be as well versed in such things.

[Dill]

(01-13-2021, 05:21 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Would any of you care to elaborate on how any of my points are wrong or won't come to fruition or am I just supposed to accept no because you all said it?

Normally, you don't respond when people take apart your posts. So I think many just don't want to waste the words.

Trump was an autocrat who challenged democratic norms and institutions from the moment he got into office and began writing legally defective executive orders. 

He escaped his first impeachment when Republicans acted like a regime party, protecting him from accountability. One agreed he had behaved badly, but claimed he had "learned his lesson"--thus encouraging him to continue flouting the law, along with his leadership responsibilities during a pandemic.

He spent his last month in office pardoning criminals who protected him, and using social media to foment an insurrection with a lie about a rigged election--thus preventing the peaceful transfer of power for the first time in the history of the U.S. 

When he was banned from Twitter and other social media for fomenting murder and mayhem, the new Right wing issue became how all these big companies violated Trump's free speech right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater. Fox commentators complicit with Trump's sedition have spent the last week ginning up fear that Dems are going after "our freedoms" by curtailing the rights of active insurrectionists to organize on line.

While defending a president and his party who sought to overturn a democratic election, you pretend--or have been brainwashed to believe--that Democrats who will restore and respect the norms which Trump trashed are the real enemies of "our freedoms," not Trump and the cult of authoritarian followers which has supported and enabled him. 

[BFritz21]

(01-13-2021, 09:00 PM)Dill Wrote: Normally, you don't respond when people take apart your posts. So I think many just don't want to waste the words.

Trump was an autocrat who challenged democratic norms and institutions from the moment he got into office and began writing legally defective executive orders. 

He escaped his first impeachment when Republicans acted like a regime party, protecting him from accountability. One agreed he had behaved badly, but claimed he had "learned his lesson"--thus encouraging him to continue flouting the law, along with his leadership responsibilities during a pandemic.

He spent his last month in office pardoning criminals who protected him, and using social media to foment an insurrection with a lie about a rigged election--thus preventing the peaceful transfer of power for the first time in the history of the U.S. 

When he was banned from Twitter and other social media for fomenting murder and mayhem, the new Right wing issue became how all these big companies violated Trump's free speech right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater. Fox commentators complicit with Trump's sedition have spent the last week ginning up fear that Dems are going after "our freedoms" by curtailing the rights of active insurrectionists to organize on line.

While defending a president and his party who sought to overturn a democratic election, you pretend--or have been brainwashed to believe--that Democrats who will restore and respect the norms which Trump trashed are the real enemies of "our freedoms," not Trump and the cult of authoritarian followers which has supported and enabled him. 

The highlighted part is why you can't be taken seriously.  Trump called for peaceful assembly and protest:

Quote:He said: "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."

From your post, you obviously thought I'm too stupid to have known that.

[Benton]

(01-13-2021, 09:13 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: The highlighted part is why you can't be taken seriously.  Trump called for peaceful assembly and protest:

He also said "if you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore."


Along with saying erroneously that he won the election by a landslide and that the left was just trying to steal their stuff.

[BigPapaKain]

(01-13-2021, 09:23 PM)Benton Wrote: He also said "if you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore."


Along with saying erroneously that he won the election by a landslide and that the left was just trying to steal their stuff.

Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(01-13-2021, 09:13 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: The highlighted part is why you can't be taken seriously.  Trump called for peaceful assembly and protest:


From your post, you obviously thought I'm too stupid to have known that.

Three words, actually five.

Look
See
Over

"Look over there! See over there with the Democrats and their faults."

Look and See mean basically the same thing . . . but switch that around and they are complete opposites and pretty much the basis of the Republican party, especially the last four years(Democrats also, but nowhere near as much as the Republicans)

"Allow me to OVERLOOK all of my parties faults while I OVERSEE these exact same faults of the other side."

This is more obvious when looking at Fox, OAN and Newsmax.

Ronald Reagan fomented one of the core principals of the modern Republican party . . . attack the other side only. I've never heard a Democrat say "Never say anything bad about another Democrat". 

[Dill]

(01-13-2021, 09:13 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: The highlighted part is why you can't be taken seriously.  Trump called for peaceful assembly and protest:

From your post, you obviously thought I'm too stupid to have known that.

You wonder why people don't respond to your posts. 

You get someone who does respond with substance and promptly proclaim he cannot be taken seriously, while avoiding all the points made about Trump's autocratic behavior, which upend your characterization of Dems, not Trump, as the threat to "our freedoms." 

Here is a transcript of Trump's speech to the crowed he called to Washington to challenge the election. He plainly tells them the election is stolen and that they must go fight to get their country back.
https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/trumps-speech-what-did-he-say-minutes-before-capitol-riot/YM5NQXDKZZGQHPMHYAURW5CDUI/

Recall that the election was over. The votes were certified. Biden won. 

Instead of "calling for unity" and "working together," as so many of his Congressional sychophants did today, Trump refused to concede and convinced millions that the election was stolen, but that Mike Pence could fix that if he "did the right thing" on Jan. 6.

He called his followers to an assembly the morning of Jan. 6, as his own FBI warned the Capitol police of planned insurrection. (Did the FBI keep this from Trump?) 

And what was Trump's message? What was the point of a rally AFTER the election was lost, but on the day of a ceremonial certification of the results?

Was it to peacefully protest or,  following the above transcript, to "STOP THE STEAL"?!? 

So how was the angry crowd supposed to stop that steal? Did Trump say a "peaceful march" would undo the election? (I cannot find any transcript in which he says that.)

Or did he tell people wearing tactical gear and carrying zip ties to fight to get their country back--never mind the election results--and "weakness" meant failure? 

Murder and mayhem clearly resulted. But we must believe that the guy who convinced the mob their country had been stolen and sent them to fight to get it back, and then refused to intervene as he enjoyed the spectacle on television, bears no responsibility for that murder and mayhem?

[BFritz21]

(01-13-2021, 09:23 PM)Benton Wrote: He also said "if you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore."


Along with saying erroneously that he won the election by a landslide and that the left was just trying to steal their stuff.

So fight like hell is always literal and means taking something by storm?  

People "fight like hell" to make their marriages work, keep their jobs, and a million other things, but Trump meant by force even though he called for a peaceful assembly?

Weird.

[KillerGoose]

(01-13-2021, 10:00 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: So fight like hell is always literal and means taking something by storm?  

People "fight like hell" to make their marriages work, keep their jobs, and a million other things, but Trump meant by force even though he called for a peaceful assembly?

Weird.

People get attached to and assign value to different things in different ways. Of course, people will fight like hell to keep their marriage, and they don’t do it in a literal sense. However, we aren’t talking about a personal relationship. We are talking about a country, government, and a way of life that people believe are being taken from them. Trump has convinced many people, you included, that the election was stolen by crooked Joe.

I’m not here to argue the merits of that, but people react to this alternate reality in a variety of ways. Some people just tune out, some complain and argue online, and some choose to take action. Trump has energized that last group of people and emboldened them to actually take action instead of fantasizing about it. Did he call for peaceful protest? He used those words, but he has also been lying for the past two months about a stolen election, which has followed four incredibly divisive years. These people legitimately believe that the government has been compromised and they are losing their country.

You can find evidence of this on TheDonald, for instance. These people were preparing for “war” and discussing coming to the protest armed and ready. Why are they talking like this? What is causing this behavior? Presumably, these people were around and into politics when Obama won his terms and there was no attack on the Capitol. It can’t be that a Democrat won and that made people angry. It is the fact that these people believe the election was stolen and their government has been compromised, which are lies spewed by Trump.

[Dill]

(01-13-2021, 10:00 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: So fight like hell is always literal and means taking something by storm?  

People "fight like hell" to make their marriages work, keep their jobs, and a million other things, but Trump meant by force even though he called for a peaceful assembly?

Weird.

Well yes. 

That is what the phrase "take by storm" usually and literally means whenever an autocrat urges his followers to undo an election. 

Trump was not offering marriage counseling when he told an angry mob they had to be strong to get their country back.

To repeat my point, the election was over.  Trump lost.

Once the military had affirmed its neutrality, there was only one way to undo that election and keep Trump in power.

And it was not by a "peaceful march." It was not by showing "weakness."

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

Has an outgoing President ever held a rally just down the street from the Capitol on the day that the election is being certified?

He assembled the most passionate of his mis-informed base and incited them to the point of rage with more baseless lies.

[BmorePat87]

The line about being peaceful is cited to suggest that his words could not have riled up the terrorists, but that comes within the first few paragraphs of an hour long speech.

The last paragraphs, the lines he delivers immediately before they marched on the Capitol, are far different.

He spends the vast majority of his speech rambling on about various false claims about election fraud and the destruction of the country. He ends it with this rhetoric:

"you better do it before we have no country left. Today is not the end. It’s just the beginning."

"We must stop the steal and then we must ensure that such outrageous election fraud never happens again, can never be allowed to happen again, but we’re going forward. We’ll take care of going forward. We got to take care of going back."
"If we allow this group of people to illegally take over our country, because it’s illegal when the votes are illegal, when the way they got there is illegal, when the States that vote are given false and fraudulent information. "

"Now they want to take down the wall. Let’s let everyone flow in. Let’s let everybody flow in."

"we got rid of all of the stuff that we had to live with. But now the caravans, they think Biden’s getting in, the caravans are forming again. They want to come in again and rip off our country. Can’t let it happen. As this enormous crowd shows, we have truth and justice on our side. "

" Together we are determined to defend and preserve government of the people, by the people and for the people."

"but I said, 'Something’s wrong here. Something’s really wrong. Can’t have happened.' And we fight. We fight like Hell and if you don’t fight like Hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore."

" But we’re going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones, because the strong ones don’t need any of our help, we’re going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. So let’s walk down Pennsylvania Avenue"

[GMDino]

It's almost like when Trump told them to come to a rally and then told them it would be a wild rally and then gave a speech at the rally telling them to walk down to capitol and encourage the "weak" republicans that the proud boys and trump cult members and maga crowd thought that the potus wanted them there.

Very telling video of rioters outside the Capitol shouting at police: "We were invited here. We were invited by the president of the United States" pic.twitter.com/Ctt5M1ijoA

— Drew Harwell (@drewharwell) January 13, 2021

[*jason*]

Why did Trump silently watch all of this shit unfold in TV? The man called for a peaceful gathering at the capital. When he saw that all hell broke loose, why didn't he do a damn thing to stop it? People from his own party were pleading with him to make it stop... Or at least try. He couldn't be bothered.

[NATI BENGALS]

(01-13-2021, 04:53 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: What I mean by the end of the United States is it this the end of the things that made the country great?!

The end of our basic freedoms?

Biden's vision reflects a more liberal landscape, and Ronald Reagan said "if Fascism ever comes to America, it will come in the way of Liberalism."

The government is too big and has too much control.

The First Amendment is under attack because everyone is so easily offended by everything.  We're raising a generation of people that are offended by everything and need safe spaces when things don't go their way.

The Second Amendment is obviously under attack and that needs no explanation.

Biden and the Dems want to brainwash people into thinking that the government is daddy and should control everything.  

There's more, but is this the end of the country as we know it?  Will all these snowflake college kids keep voting Democrat even if the next four years are a complete failure?  Are we on our way to an authoritarian government?

Damn. Wow Brad. Good points. I too am afraid of an authoritarian gov. 

We should totally organize an event where we attack the capital and install a real leader. Someone who leads with authority who we will all line up behind and follow. A true strong leader. 

No idea why the majority of Americans voted for Biden. But by god they were wrong and this definitely wouldn't be the same America if we just let the guy most people voted for lead us. 

Hell we have lost so much of our American exceptionalism that our European allies won't even meet with our top diplomat in recent days. What a quick hard fall thanks to Biden. 

[*jason*]

(01-13-2021, 11:11 PM)GMDino Wrote: It's almost like when Trump told them to come to a rally and then told them it would be a wild rally and then gave a speech at the rally telling them to walk down to capitol and encourage the "weak" republicans that the proud boys and trump cult members and maga crowd thought that the potus wanted them there.

Very telling video of rioters outside the Capitol shouting at police: "We were invited here. We were invited by the president of the United States" pic.twitter.com/Ctt5M1ijoA

— Drew Harwell (@drewharwell) January 13, 2021

Antifa...

[Benton]

(01-13-2021, 10:00 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: So fight like hell is always literal and means taking something by storm?  

People "fight like hell" to make their marriages work, keep their jobs, and a million other things, but Trump meant by force even though he called for a peaceful assembly?

Weird.

To the second graf: dunno.

Why?

Because that's not what he said. What did he say? "If you don't right like hell you're not going to have a country any more."