Immigrants as scapegoats

[*bfine32*]

(01-03-2019, 07:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  I googled it and got the suicide rate among white males.  Did not see any claims that the rate was due to "white privilege".  But I did see one claim that it was because white people felt like they had more to lose because they used to control everything but now minorities are taking over.

2.  I did not have to ask Bels for a link because I have seen with my own eyes hundreds of examples of minorities being turned into scapegoats.  And I already know the facts.  90% of the new wealth created in this country since 1970 has gone to the wealthiest 5%.  So I know immigrants are not the problem.

3.  People who blame minorities as the scapegoats are not suffering from cognitive dissonance because they reject the concept of "white privilege".   They do not hold any conflicting beliefs.  


But if you are saying that deep in their hearts white males really do acknowledge the reality of "white privilege" and "male privilege" but just talk like it does not exist then you might have a point.  Is that what you are claiming about all the guys here who deny the existence of "white privilege" or "male privilege"?  Because "cognitive dissonance" is defined by a persons own beliefs, not what other people say.

You forgot to change accounts before you replied

[Beaker]

(01-03-2019, 07:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote:  Is that what you are claiming about all the guys here who deny the existence of "white privilege" or "male privilege"?  

And what about the guys on here denying the existence of "minority privilege" or "female privilege"?

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2019, 08:49 PM)Beaker Wrote: And what about the guys on here denying the existence of "minority privilege" or "female privilege"?

I think they are honest and sincere in their beliefs.  I don't think any of them are going to kill themselves because down deep in their hearts they believe that minorities have it better than white people the way Bfine claims white men are doing over "white privilege".

What about you?  Do you think men who say there is no "white privilege" are actually suffering from cognitive dissonance because secretly they really do acknowledge that "white privilege" exists? 

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2019, 08:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You forgot to change accounts before you replied

No I did not.  I don't even remember my password for BengIll Communication.


But you forgot to reply to anything I said.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(01-03-2019, 06:16 PM)GMDino Wrote: Well I'm American and have only lived in America so I am talking about America.  The country that should be better than the rest, right?

Yes we should be better, but we are still humans with flaws, and you missed my point.

If you want to play the "white privilege" game, then you need to acknowledge that in Asia, they have "Asian Privilege", in African they have "African Privilege", in the Middle East they have "Indian privilege". In Central and South America it's "Latin Privilege", and most of Europe, US and Canada have the "White Privilege". it's not a privilege like you are making it out to be. If it was a true privilege, I should be able to go anywhere in the world and get my special treatment, but I can't, cause in the Middle East/Africa/Asia/CS America there is no such thing as "white privilege".  It's simply a geographical privilege based on the majority that lives in that location rather than a "White" one.

Now if there is a minority out there screaming about "white privilege" and it's that important to them, there is always a place where they can go and get "their privilege". I plan to move to Asia in a few more years, now if I got over there and start screaming about how unfair it is there for me and they have their "Asian Privilege" what do you think they are gonna do?

(01-03-2019, 06:16 PM)GMDino Wrote: Soooo....I was right?

Right and Wrong at the same time.

(01-03-2019, 06:16 PM)GMDino Wrote: There are exceptions to rules.  There are those who can rise above despite the odds.  And then there is the norm.

And that is what I hope I will be when I move to Asia.

(01-03-2019, 06:16 PM)GMDino Wrote: Guess I wasn't talking about you then.

And a lot of those problems are caused by being a minority in a country where the majority thinks you just don't work hard enough to pull yourself up.

No you weren't talking directly to me, but you have a very bad habit of generalizing with words like "all". Especially when it comes to Trump Supporters. You think "all" Trump supporters are the same in the way they think, live and behave. Trump supporters come from all background types same as non-Trump supporters. The only difference is we don't always share the same views on every subject.

And yes, I will be a minority in Aisa, I accept that, and expect that I won't always be treated fairly and I plan to thrive there.

(01-03-2019, 06:16 PM)GMDino Wrote: And a lot of those problems are caused by being a minority in a country where the majority thinks you just don't work hard enough to pull yourself up.

No, it's caused by people of the same race being less open minded about other races. People tend to flock together.

Should I get upset cause a successful black/indian/latino/asian businessman only hires people of his same race to work for him?

If it was a White person hiring only other whites, you would be screaming Racist!!!! Whether they are racist or not, but now you've declared war on them so you are actually forcing the divide, you can't force someone to like someone they are unfamiliar with. Usually the outcome is negative when it's forced because people are stubborn to change.

[*bfine32*]

Does this "Scapegoat Theory" hold true when minorities blame whitey for keeping them down or is that a "red herring"?

[Beaker]

(01-03-2019, 08:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What about you?  Do you think men who claim their is no "white privilege" are actually suffering from cognitive dissonance because secretly they really do acknowledge that "white privilege" exists? 

I can only answer for myself. No cognitive dissonance here. 

But I do worry that so many people truly believe that any racial "privilege" is something other than plain old racism. And that kind of racism can exist within any racial group.

[Belsnickel]

(01-03-2019, 09:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Does this "Scapegoat Theory" hold true when minorities blame whitey for keeping them down or is that a "red herring"?

The scapegoat theory is only an attempt to explain racism. The idea that members of one race blames members of another race for something is not contingent on their position of power in society.

[*bfine32*]

(01-03-2019, 09:11 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The scapegoat theory is only an attempt to explain racism. The idea that members of one race blames members of another race for something is not contingent on their position of power in society.

I've read it is used to explain prejudice; not racism; but it's Social Science so I'm sure there's many interpretations. So IMO the theory can go both ways as long as the individual displays prejudice. Or does it only count when white folks blame brown people? 

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2019, 09:06 PM)Beaker Wrote: But I do worry that so many people truly believe that any racial "privilege" is something other than plain old racism, and that anybody can be racist no matter what race they are.

Everyone who acknowledges that whit privilege exists 100% agree that it is racism.

They are just pointing out that the RESULTS of racism are much different for the majority who control a grossly disproportionate amount of the wealth and power than they are for the minorities who lack the power or authority to exploit, oppression, or damage to the majority in any way.

Both sides can be racist, but it is a privilege to be on the side with the disproportionate control of wealth and power. 

[Belsnickel]

(01-03-2019, 09:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've read it is used to explain prejudice; not racism; but it's Social Science so I'm sure there's many interpretations. So IMO the theory can go both ways as long as the individual displays prejudice. Or does it only count when white folks blame brown people? 

I was referring to its use with racism specifically because of the context of this thread, but you are correct that it is used to explain prejudice in general. As to last bit, I already answered that.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(01-03-2019, 08:15 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Fred covered it pretty well while I was absent. I'll throw in this link: https://www.thebalance.com/donald-trump-immigration-impact-on-economy-4151107

Reductions on refugees, turning away asylum seekers, Muslim travel ban, etc., etc., etc.

Your links show that he's tightening up legal migrant security.
What exactly is wrong with that? We can't verify people from the countries that are on the list.

Do you have a problem with limiting the H-1b's to hire American's first and stop abusing the process to get foreigners here to work for less pay in order to keep wages down for the American counterparts?

Which specific part do you wish to discuss? Otherwise I'll pull a Fred and cherry pick what I want to discuss.

[*bfine32*]

(01-03-2019, 09:20 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I was referring to its use with racism specifically because of the context of this thread, but you are correct that it is used to explain prejudice in general. As to last bit, I already answered that.

Most likely because the OP wanted it to be about race. Just look at the title. Sorta steers the context.

[Beaker]

(01-03-2019, 09:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Both sides can be racist, but it is a privilege to be on the side with the disproportionate control of wealth and power. 

Its a privilege to be on the side of anyone who has "wealth" or "power" if they extend you favors based on your skin color no matter what race they are, or what percentage of the population they are.  

[Belsnickel]

(01-03-2019, 09:23 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Your links show that he's tightening up legal migrant security.
What exactly is wrong with that? We can't verify people from the countries that are on the list.

Do you have a problem with limiting the H-1b's to hire American's first and stop abusing the process to get foreigners here to work for less pay in order to keep wages down for the American counterparts?

Which specific part do you wish to discuss? Otherwise I'll pull a Fred and cherry pick what I want to discuss.

I really don't care about discussing any of it. Your opinions on the merits of the policies put in place or called for don't matter to me. I was merely pointing out the attempts to limit, or attack, legal immigration under the Trump administration.

(01-03-2019, 09:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Most likely because the OP wanted it to be about race. Just look at the title. Sorta steers the context.

Immigrants are all one race? I specifically pointed out in the OP race, ethnicity, and nationality. Given those are the three characteristics that immigrants typically face prejudice in regards to, I figured those were adequate to cover the gambit. But, I didn't steer it towards race with the OP. The posts following it did, though. Like post #3, which focused only on race.

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2019, 09:03 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Yes we should be better, but we are still humans with flaws, and you missed my point.

If you want to play the "white privilege" game, then you need to acknowledge that in Asia, they have "Asian Privilege", in African they have "African Privilege", in the Middle East they have "Indian privilege". In Central and South America it's "Latin Privilege", and most of Europe, US and Canada have the "White Privilege". it's not a privilege like you are making it out to be. If it was a true privilege, I should be able to go anywhere in the world and get my special treatment, but I can't, cause in the Middle East/Africa/Asia/CS America there is no such thing as "white privilege".  It's simply a geographical privilege based on the majority that lives in that location rather than a "White" one.

Now if there is a minority out there screaming about "white privilege" and it's that important to them, there is always a place where they can go and get "their privilege". I plan to move to Asia in a few more years, now if I got over there and start screaming about how unfair it is there for me and they have their "Asian Privilege" what do you think they are gonna do?

No one "missed your point".  We all agree that "white privilege" is the same as "majority privilege" (except in rare historical cases where a minority actually controls most of the power like South Africa during Apartheid).

But most of us want to address the issue in some other way than running all the minorities out of America and making it 100% White Christian.

BTW if you are really moving to Asia I suggest you educate yourself a bit more on their culture.  For example Japanese don't have "Asian" privilege in China.  An American would be more welcome in many places there than a Japanese.

[*bfine32*]

(01-03-2019, 09:33 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Immigrants are all one race? I specifically pointed out in the OP race, ethnicity, and nationality. Given those are the three characteristics that immigrants typically face prejudice in regards to, I figured those were adequate to cover the gambit. But, I didn't steer it towards race with the OP. The posts following it did, though. Like post #3, which focused only on race.

I actually focused on race and gender, but we can pretend you were referencing immigrants from Norway when you referenced minorities in your OP.

[Belsnickel]

(01-03-2019, 09:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I actually focused on race and gender, but we can pretend you were referencing immigrants from Norway when you referenced minorities in your OP.

My apologies, however you still chose only one of the three I mentioned to focus on. Also, a minority group can be based on race, ethnicity, nationality, gender, sexual identity, sexual orientation, religion, etc., etc.

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2019, 09:29 PM)Beaker Wrote: Its a privilege to be on the side of anyone who has "wealth" or "power" if they extend you favors based on your skin color no matter what race they are, or what percentage of the population they are.  

I don't even know what this means.

You agree racism exists.

You agree that in America white people control a grossly disproportionate amount of the wealth and power.

So how can it NOT be a privilege to be a member of the majority.  Over ninety percent of the places you go in this country whites are the majority.  There are over 300 cities in the United States with a population over 100K and only 19 (6%) have a majority black population.  And even in these 6% of the cities there are large neighborhoods that are still majority white.  Plus even in majority black cities white people still own a majority of the businesses.   You don't have to worry about feeling out of place or about being judged or treated unfairly based on your race.  For minorities the opposite is true.  They are going to be in the minority in over 90% of the places in this country and they have to be concerned about being judged and treated unfairly based on the color of their skin.  Most of the businesses where they will apply for work are controlled by white people.  Blacks account for only 3.3% of all business owners.  Most of the banks where they will have to borrow money are controlled by white people.  Most police, judges, and members of juries are white people.

[Dill]

(01-03-2019, 03:03 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: You don't think they do? If Repubilicans tried to change something that helps people in poverty, the Democrats will say it's a bad thing and slander it to death. Same if positions are reversed. Neither wants the other doing good things to their voting base.

We are not leaders anymore in much of anything, education, health etc.

The politicians have the ability to make changes to the US and raise the standards here and in turn we can lead by example so other countries will strive to match us.

Face the facts, we can't control other nations. We have tried and tried and it backfires more often than not because WE HALF-ASS IT, we simply do not follow thru because we had no plan to begin with and politicians always change their minds every voting cycle.  
So we need to find a way thru trade etc to boost the economies of people that are making progress with their own nations human rights and those that continue to violate them, well blacklist them.

??? Not sure what you mean by "control".  The US, before Trump, had more diplomatic power than any country in the world.  Obama managed to get China, russia, and Iran to sign a nuclear deal along with Germany, France and Great Britain. No other country could engineer a deal like that, precisely because of how the US has behaved since WWII, building and upholding alliances. When the US throws its economic weight against Russia, it brings along the 17 trillion dollar EU economy.  That is only possible because something--a great deal--hasn't "backfired." Shouldn't we be facing those "facts"?

The major US foreign policy failures result from bad judgment, like the Iraq invasion or the Vietnam war--from politicians ignoring foreign policy experts and diplomacy.  Of course people who don't believe in nation building "have no plan"--with disastrous results. 

The US was "finding a way through trade to boost the economies of people that are making progress" etc. until Trump's America first project.

This brings me back to my primary question--What is your view of universal human rights? Should they be displaced by something like National rights?  Wh