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Immigration Changes (Green Card Rules)
#1
Seems many people are up in arms about this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/12/us/politics/trump-immigration-policy.html

WASHINGTON — President Trump on Monday broadened his assault on the nation’s immigration system, issuing a new rule targeting legal immigrants who want to remain in the United States but whose lack of financial resources is judged likely to make them a burden on taxpayers.

The new regulation is aimed at hundreds of thousands of immigrants who enter the country legally every year and then apply to become permanent residents. Starting in October, the government’s decision will be based on an aggressive wealth test to determine whether those immigrants have the means to support themselves.

Poor immigrants will be denied permanent legal status, also known as a green card, if they are deemed likely to use government benefit programs such as food stamps and subsidized housing. Wealthier immigrants, who are designated as less likely to require public assistance, will be able to obtain a green card.

Officials said the program would not apply to people who already have green cards, to certain members of the military, to refugees and asylum-seekers, or to pregnant women and children. But immigration advocates warned that vast numbers of immigrants, including those not actually subject to the regulation, may drop out of programs they need because they fear retribution by immigration authorities.

A spotlight on the people reshaping our politics. A conversation with voters across the country. And a guiding hand through the endless news cycle, telling you what you really need to know.

“This news is a cruel new step toward weaponizing programs that are intended to help people by making them, instead, a means of separating families and sending immigrants and communities of color one message: You are not welcome here,” said Marielena Hincapié, the executive director of the National Immigration Law Center.

She added: “It will have a dire humanitarian impact, forcing some families to forgo critical lifesaving health care and nutrition. The damage will be felt for decades to come.”

Mr. Trump has long insisted that the United States should welcome immigrants based only on the “merit” they demonstrate. And he has disparaged the idea of letting immigrants into the United States from poor and underdeveloped nations, which he once described in the most vulgar of terms.

Monday’s rule is an attempt to enact Mr. Trump’s priorities. It embraces people who have financial means while shunning immigrants who are struggling. That is certain to affect the flow of immigrants who have sought refuge in the United States from impoverished places in Africa, Central America and the Caribbean.

Kenneth T. Cuccinelli II, the acting director of United States Citizenship and Immigration Services, who announced the new regulation at the White House, said it would allow the government to insist that immigrants who come to the country were self-sufficient and would not be a drain on society.

“The benefit to taxpayers is a long-term benefit of seeking to ensure that our immigration system is bringing people to join us as American citizens, as legal permanent residents first, who can stand on their own two feet, who will not be reliant on the welfare system, especially in the age of the modern welfare state which is so expansive and expensive,” Mr. Cuccinelli said.

Under the new rule, the financial well-being of immigrants who are in the United States legally on temporary visas will be more heavily scrutinized when they seek a green card. Immigration officials will consider an immigrant’s age, health, family status, assets, resources, financial status and education. But the officials will be given broad leeway to determine whether an immigrant is likely to be a user of public benefits, to deny them a green card and to order them deported.

The rule has been the top priority of Stephen Miller, the architect of Mr. Trump’s immigration agenda. Mr. Miller has repeatedly pushed administration officials to finish drafting the regulation, known as the public charge rule, at one point telling them that he wanted them to work on nothing other than that until it was completed.

L. Francis Cissna, the former director of Citizenship and Immigration Services, had resisted the rush to finish the rule, drafts of which were several hundred pages long and extremely complicated. But Mr. Cissna was forced out of his position this year and replaced by Mr. Cuccinelli, a former Virginia attorney general and immigration hard-liner who shares Mr. Miller’s view that immigrants should not rely on financial support from the government.

The complex regulation, which is scheduled to go into effect in 60 days, would give the Trump administration a powerful new tool to narrow the demographic of people who come to live and work in the country. According to the new rule, the United States wants immigrants who can support themselves, not those who “depend on public resources to meet their needs.”

Maria, who is five months pregnant, came to the United States from Colombia. Melissa Golden for The New York Times
The ability of immigrants to support themselves has long been a consideration in whether they were granted the right to permanently live and work in the United States. But the Trump administration’s new move has made assessing the financial resources of immigrants a more central part of that decision-making process.

An applicant who speaks English, shows formal letters of support and has private health insurance would be more likely to be approved than someone whose financial situation suggests they would probably need housing vouchers or enroll in Medicaid in the future if they were given a green card.

Immigrants who have incomes equal to or greater than 250 percent of the official poverty line — about $64,000 for a family of four — are not likely to be declared public charges, according to the new regulation. Immigrants with incomes far less than that who are seeking green cards will have to prove that they will not require public benefits in the future. Over time, administration officials hope that the tough policy will shift the composition of the American immigration system by favoring wealthier immigrants.

Asked about the 1903 plaque on the Statue of Liberty that invites “your tired, your poor, your huddled masses,” Mr. Cuccinelli said: “I’m certainly not prepared to take anything down off the Statue of Liberty. We have a long history of being one of the most welcoming nations in the world.”
But immigration advocates reacted with anger at the announcement, describing it as a cruel policy that they said was already causing immigrants around the country to abandon housing and medical benefits because they were concerned about the impact that using them might have on their immigration status or the status of someone in their family.

“Shame on the Trump administration for expanding a rule with racist roots in a shameful ploy to rig the immigration system for the wealthy,” said Cynthia Buiza, the executive director of the California Immigrant Policy Center. “We thank all who stood up against the administration’s hate-filled agenda, and we will continue to fight for our values of community, compassion and common humanity.”

The fear touched off by the new rule is illustrated by Maria, a 28-year-old woman from Colombia who is five months pregnant and asked that her last name not be used because she feared reprisals by American immigration officials. A couple of weeks ago she reached out to her lawyer for advice after she started seeing coverage of the draft version of the public charge rule. Her husband, a childhood friend from Colombia, is an American citizen, and she is in the United States on a tourist visa while she applies for a green card with him as a sponsor.

Maria’s husband, a high school teacher, had been off work during the summer break, forcing them to enroll in supplemental nutritional program for women, infants and children, known as WIC, in order to afford food and prenatal care. Though the new rule specifically does not penalize pregnant women for seeking such assistance, she said she feared that it could be used against her anyway. She said she wished she could stop accepting the help.

“I can’t,” said Maria, who worked as an industrial engineer in Colombia. “Right now we need to use it,” she said, adding, “Whatever happens, the most important thing is that the baby is O.K., right?”

How many people the rule will affect is in dispute. Citizenship and Immigration Services did not conduct an “in-depth” analysis to estimate that, according to a senior administration official, who asked for anonymity to brief reporters on the rule.

But in the Federal Register, Department of Homeland Security officials estimated that more than 382,000 immigrants seek an adjustment to their immigration status each year and would be subject to the public charge review. More than 324,000 people in households with noncitizens are estimated to drop out or not enroll in public benefit programs.

Advocacy organizations say the number of people affected by the regulation is vastly larger, estimating that 26 million immigrants living in the United States legally will reconsider their use of government benefits because they fear how accepting assistance could affect their ability to remain in the United States.

Several immigration groups have pledged to sue the administration in an attempt to block the regulation from going into effect. Tens of thousands of people opposed the rule in a public comment period over the past several months.

When the regulation was published in the Federal Register on Monday morning, it contained an acknowledgment of how contentious the debate over it has been. “While some commenters provided support for the rule,” it said, “the vast majority of commenters opposed the rule.”

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I've reviewed it, and I am ok with the changes. The changes of the 250% income needed in order to sponsor someone is a little high, wouldn't have gone to 250%, 150% maybe, but I understand the point of it. Going to be a whole lot less people coming here (via marriage and sponsorship).
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#2
Is it a wealth test or a job test? I don't know their immigration status, but I see a lot of Latinos up on roofs for 12 hours a day in the middle of summer. I don't know what their wealth is, but I'm happy for them to receive their green card if they don't have one yet and aren't citizens.
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall

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#3
(08-16-2019, 01:12 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Is it a wealth test or a job test?  I don't know their immigration status, but I see a lot of Latinos up on roofs for 12 hours a day in the middle of summer.  I don't know what their wealth is, but I'm happy for them to receive their green card if they don't have one yet and aren't citizens.

Wealth test. If you don't have a Green Card, you can't have a legal job.
But the person sponsoring you has to make a certain amount of money, and that amount is going to be 250% of the federal poverty level instead of the poverty level being the miniumum now.

Say:
for a family of 2, the fed limit is like 22k, now it will be something like 54k in order to sponsor someone for a green card.
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#4
Pretty standard republican stuff. Shit on the low and middle class. Look out for the ones who are well off.
#5
(08-16-2019, 02:01 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Pretty standard republican stuff. Shit on the low and middle class. Look out for the ones who are well off.

And do you know just how many come here and once become USC's actually get gov help?
This is what they are trying to cut back on. You want to come here, then you have to be able to prove that you will not be a burden to the US Taxpayer. We have enough of our own to deal with.
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#6
(08-16-2019, 01:32 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Wealth test. If you don't have a Green Card, you can't have a legal job.

Incorrect. A green card means you are a permanent legal resident. You can receive a work visa which can potentially lead to a green card down the road, but still have a job without a green card.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR

"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
#7
I'm not surprised at all by this. Trump has said in that past that he believes that immigration should be merit based. So, to him, an immigrant who can't support themselves is pretty much worthless to this country. It's like that Immigration guy that added a phrase to the poem on the Statue of Liberty.

"Give Me Your Tired, Your Poor... Who Can Stand On Their Own 2 Feet"

It's an ideology that is very prevalent in his cabinet and has been evident from his handling of the border and other immigration affairs since he entered office.
#8
(08-16-2019, 01:12 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Is it a wealth test or a job test?  I don't know their immigration status, but I see a lot of Latinos up on roofs for 12 hours a day in the middle of summer.  I don't know what their wealth is, but I'm happy for them to receive their green card if they don't have one yet and aren't citizens.

Taking jobs from real Americans who WANT to spread that asphalt in 90% heat!! Rant
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#9
(08-16-2019, 03:46 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I'm not surprised at all by this. Trump has said in that past that he believes that immigration should be merit based. So, to him, an immigrant who can't support themselves is pretty much worthless to this country. It's like that Immigration guy that added a phrase to the poem on the Statue of Liberty.

"Give Me Your Tired, Your Poor... Who Can Stand On Their Own 2 Feet"

It's an ideology that is very prevalent in his cabinet and has been evident from his handling of the border and other immigration affairs since he entered office.

Monday’s rule is an attempt to enact Mr. Trump’s priorities. It embraces people who have financial means while shunning immigrants who are struggling. That is certain to affect the flow of immigrants who have sought refuge in the United States from impoverished places in Africa, Central America and the Caribbean.

Is it possible that, in his view, some immigrants who can support themselves are still "worthless"?  I.e., could the economic criteria have the desired effect of explicitly ethnic or racial criteria--without stating such criterion?
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#10
(08-19-2019, 12:48 PM)Dill Wrote: Is it possible that, in his view, some immigrants who can support themselves are still "worthless"?  I.e., could the economic criteria have the desired effect of explicitly ethnic or racial criteria--without stating such criterion?

While it would never be admitted, absolutely. I would wager my life's earnings that these rules, if implemented and left for the long haul, would result in not just a lower level of immigration, but whiter immigration at that.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR

"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
#11
(08-19-2019, 12:48 PM)Dill Wrote: Monday’s rule is an attempt to enact Mr. Trump’s priorities. It embraces people who have financial means while shunning immigrants who are struggling. That is certain to affect the flow of immigrants who have sought refuge in the United States from impoverished places in Africa, Central America and the Caribbean.

Is it possible that, in his view, some immigrants who can support themselves are still "worthless"?  I.e., could the economic criteria have the desired effect of explicitly ethnic or racial criteria--without stating such criterion?

Well yea. I mean anything that is based on wealth is going to be inherently drawing a line racially as well. European (and therefore, white) history is basically a collection of stories of the various colored people that white people robbed over the years, whether it be of their countries' resources, treasures, land, labor or people, so if you're going to base your immigration off of wealth, the majority of people will be white.

Is that intentional? I believe it is. I don't think it's a coincidence that Trump would love more immigrants from Norway rather than Mexico or any African country. 

But this is what's been going on with the far right for quite a while now.
#12
(08-20-2019, 08:20 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Well yea. I mean anything that is based on wealth is going to be inherently drawing a line racially as well. European (and therefore, white) history is basically a collection of stories of the various colored people that white people robbed over the years, whether it be of their countries' resources, treasures, land, labor or people, so if you're going to base your immigration off of wealth, the majority of people will be white.

Is that intentional? I believe it is. I don't think it's a coincidence that Trump would love more immigrants from Norway rather than Mexico or any African country. 

But this is what's been going on with the far right for quite a while now.

Since the Civil War at least. When the Civil Rights act of 1866 and the 14th Amendment made it impossible to discriminate directly by race, southern politicians began legal innovation to create discriminating laws without reference to race.  Voting laws continue this tradition in many places, proposing ID qualifications and time limits and the like which affect one demographic more than another.

So that is what I am thinking of in the case of these immigration changes. They look to me like a continuation of this particular legal tradition. 

And anyone who raises this history and this issue could then be framed as playing "the race card" when there is no mention of "race" at all.
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#13
(08-19-2019, 12:48 PM)Dill Wrote: Monday’s rule is an attempt to enact Mr. Trump’s priorities. It embraces people who have financial means while shunning immigrants who are struggling. That is certain to affect the flow of immigrants who have sought refuge in the United States from impoverished places in Africa, Central America and the Caribbean.

Is it possible that, in his view, some immigrants who can support themselves are still "worthless"?  I.e., could the economic criteria have the desired effect of explicitly ethnic or racial criteria--without stating such criterion?
 
(08-19-2019, 12:53 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: While it would never be admitted, absolutely. I would wager my life's earnings that these rules, if implemented and left for the long haul, would result in not just a lower level of immigration, but whiter immigration at that.

Good to know you guys think only whites can attain and maintain a high level of wealth.  Whatever
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#14
(08-21-2019, 11:52 AM)PhilHos Wrote:  Good to know you guys think only whites can attain and maintain a high level of wealth.  Whatever

That is a nice straw man that you have built there. The real implications behind my statements were revolving around the fact that predominantly white, western nations have, on average, a higher degree of individual average wealth.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR

"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
#15
(08-21-2019, 12:05 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: That is a nice straw man that you have built there. The real implications behind my statements were revolving around the fact that predominantly white, western nations have, on average, a higher degree of individual average wealth.

So, again, you're saying that non-white people are by-and-large not going to attain or maintain higher wealth. I'm sure you have your reasons for it like saying that white nations tend to be richer, but you're still saying non-white people from predominantly non-white countries are not able to attain or maintain higher wealth. 

I fail to see the straw man in pointing out the exact thing you're saying. 
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#16
(08-21-2019, 12:09 PM)PhilHos Wrote: So, again, you're saying that non-white people are by-and-large not going to attain or maintain higher wealth. I'm sure you have your reasons for it like saying that white nations tend to be richer, but you're still saying non-white people from predominantly non-white countries are not able to attain or maintain higher wealth

I fail to see the straw man in pointing out the exact thing you're saying. 

I'll let you look at those two statements in bold to see the difference and understand how much that changes the meaning. I will give you a hint: the first one is what I am saying, the second is a straw man and what you said initially about Dill and myself.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR

"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
#17
(08-21-2019, 12:05 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: That is a nice straw man that you have built there. The real implications behind my statements were revolving around the fact that predominantly white, western nations have, on average, a higher degree of individual average wealth.

"Racist"!!  Somehow. Wink
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#18
(08-21-2019, 12:09 PM)PhilHos Wrote: So, again, you're saying that non-white people are by-and-large not going to attain or maintain higher wealth. I'm sure you have your reasons for it like saying that white nations tend to be richer, but you're still saying non-white people from predominantly non-white countries are not able to attain or maintain higher wealth. 

I fail to see the straw man in pointing out the exact thing you're saying. 

It's not a matter of "able" or "not able." It's simply a matter of statistics.

The majority of the richest countries in the world are predominantly white.

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/richest-countries-in-the-world/

Of the top 25 richest nations, 18 are predominantly White/Caucasian (some countries like Italy are sometimes considered non-white for the purposes of relation to the US's definition, but I would count them as white here). 2 are Arab/Western Asian. 4 are Eastern Asian. 1 is Hispanic.
0 are African or black.

Meanwhile, the poorest nations are comprised primarily of African, Eastern European (many former Soviet Union), Asian, South American and Central American countries.

https://www.focus-economics.com/blog/the-poorest-countries-in-the-world

So, if you were to make an educated guess or hypothesis, would you estimate that a wealth test would make the immigrant pool entering the US more or less diverse?
#19
(08-21-2019, 11:52 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Good to know you guys think only whites can attain and maintain a high level of wealth.  Whatever

whoa! We're not the one's making immigration policy.

Monday’s rule is an attempt to enact Mr. Trump’s priorities. It embraces people who have financial means while shunning immigrants who are struggling. That is certain to affect the flow of immigrants who have sought refuge in the United States from impoverished places in Africa, Central America and the Caribbean.

Two questions:

1. Do you think the average per capita income of all African, Central American, and Caribbean "shithole" countries is higher, lower, or about the same as the per capita average income of European countries?

2. If the average per capita income of African, C American and Caribbean countries were lower, much lower, so immigrants from those countries would arrive poorer than those from Europe and more reliant on social services (especially those seeking 'refuge'), then how, over the long term, might a "wealth test" affect immigration from THOSE countries as opposed to immigration from Europe?

If I understand you correctly, we should expect to see no change in the ratio of immigrants from southern countries to those from northern because people from non-white countries "can attain wealth too." So which group collectively started out with more wealth would not matter. Is that hat you are saying?
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#20
(08-21-2019, 12:36 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'll let you look at those two statements in bold to see the difference and understand how much that changes the meaning. I will give you a hint: the first one is what I am saying, the second is a straw man and what you said initially about Dill and myself.

There is no difference, other than in one statement I broadly said "non-white people" as opposed to "non-white people from predominatnely non-white countries." My meaning is the same: you're saying non-white immigrants are generally not able to attain or maintain a certain level of wealth.

That's not a strawman. You either believe it or you don't, but that's what you said.  
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