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(11-21-2019, 12:10 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Assuming the rules don't get changed, these are the most current procedures for an impeachment trial in the Senate: https://www.law.cornell.edu/background/impeach/senaterules.pdf
The tl;dr is that the Articles of Impeachment serve as the "charges" against the official, in this case Trump. The Senate is then presided over by the Chief Justice of the United States (unique for POTUS/VPOTUS) to conduct the trial based on those charges. Witnesses are brought in, testimony is heard, evidence is received, the whole nine yards. Essentially, The House of Representatives acts as the prosecutor with POTUS as the defendant. The role of the Senate is intended to be that of a jury, hearing the case brought before them and determining whether or not the defendant is guilty of the charges brought before them by the House.
That really seems the best way to do it. I assume POTUS can call witnesses on his behalf?
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(11-21-2019, 01:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Do I? No. Do I think there's enough plausible deniability to get Trump "acquitted" in the Senate, thus far yes. I also don't think the majority of US voters care that much about this. It remains to be seen who will benefit from this process in 2020 but I would bet heavily that Trump remains in office until that election. Barring major, unforeseen, developments that is.
So why do you think the money was held?
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So we learned what we already knew: Trump believes Putin, Putin's underlings and Rudy above the entirety of the US investigations into Ukraine involvement in the 2016 US elections.
Someone in the Ukraine wrote things about not liking Trump so, being the petulant man child that he is, he thinks that is more "real".
In other words DJT did not change after winning the election...just like we all knew he would not.
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(11-21-2019, 01:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Do I? No. Do I think there's enough plausible deniability to get Trump "acquitted" in the Senate, thus far yes. I also don't think the majority of US voters care that much about this. It remains to be seen who will benefit from this process in 2020 but I would bet heavily that Trump remains in office until that election. Barring major, unforeseen, developments that is.
 Thanks. Obviously, neither do I.
[As for deniability, I might take issue with the word "plausible", for if a defense really goes along the lines of a Devin Nunes speech, then there will be no plausibility. I just guess it won't matter though.]
As for impeachment, would you agree that in principle, Trump's deeds were not only wrong, but indeed impeachable?
(11-21-2019, 01:19 PM)jj22 Wrote: So why do you think the money was held?
For the reason alleged. He answered in that sense.
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That these Trump supporters can make the disconnect in their own minds that, "sure Trump withheld the funds and meeting based on his belief in a disproved conspiracy and wanting aid from a foreign country for his own political gain ...BUT... this shouldn't be investigated because they can't prove it 100% with completely pure evidence and smoking guns because...uh...well because" is amazing to me.
Even THEY know DJT is shady and dirty and shouldn't be in office but they continue to not only defend what he says and does but also insist no one should ever investigate him unless they can absolutely find him guilty of something.
Even THEY know what he did on that call and before but they want to go after the people who brought it out of the shadows of a cover up rather than address what he did.
After the last three years I'm not surprised, but I am still disappointed.
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Well it's unfortunate that all of this was due to Trumps need to attack American Intel and defend Russia.
What's more unfortunate is that some "Americans" are fine with this, defend this, and have sided with Russia too.
If only Kaep would have colluded with foreign countries to attack America and then attack American Intel and her Allies in defense of these enemy's whose Country have enough nukes pointed at us to wipe us off the map in less than 30 minutes, he'd be beloved by these "Pro America, American first Patriots".
Instead he kneeled during some song from the 1800's, and he's deemed the enemy of the state by these same people.
It's time for us to take back the meaning of Patriotism and quit letting these Anti America people define it.
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Hill exposed what we all feared (and knew).
All roads end with Russia with this President and his supporters/defenders.
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(11-21-2019, 01:42 PM)hollodero Wrote: Thanks. Obviously, neither do I.
[As for deniability, I might take issue with the word "plausible", for if a defense really goes along the lines of a Devin Nunes speech, then there will be no plausibility. I just guess it won't matter though.]
The term means only, "is it possible". In that sense it is possible that Trump wanted this investigated for reasons other than damaging Joe Biden politically. I don't think that's the case, but it could be the case and it could easily be explained as the case. I am aware that Trump's own words hurt this defense.
Quote:As for impeachment, would you agree that in principle, Trump's deeds were not only wrong, but indeed impeachable?
Impeachable, yes. Grounds for removing him from office? That's trickier. I say that only because removing the POTUS from office is a cataclysmic level event. It's obviously never happened before, thus we have no real basis for comparison. Also, it's not a criminal trial, it's a political process. Because of that, partisanship is always going to be an issue. It was exactly that way during the Clinton impeachment and I don't expect it to be any different this go around. The only real question is who will this hurt and help in the 2020 elections. Obviously those who hate Trump will be unchanged regardless of outcome as will those who love him. What happens with those middle of the road voters is going to be the determinant.
Quote:For the reason alleged. He answered in that sense.
There seems to be a lot of failing to actually comprehend my clear points in this thread. I appreciate you pointing this out in this instance.
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Nunes: "Did you hear all the stuff I made up earlier and they report on FOX news?"
Witness: "I did hear you say it."
Nunes: "Do you have any proof that I am wrong?"
Witness: "I don't know anything about anything you just made up."
Nunes:"Then I must be telling the truth."
Me: This is sad. Nunes is just sad.
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(11-21-2019, 03:24 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The term means only, "is it possible". In that sense it is possible that Trump wanted this investigated for reasons other than damaging Joe Biden politically. I don't think that's the case, but it could be the case and it could easily be explained as the case. I am aware that Trump's own words hurt this defense.
Well, not just his wirds, right? Putting Mulvaney and Rudy aside (both pretty much admitted what they were up to), those witnesses had more or leass clear circumstantial evidence that Trump was behind the actions deemed to blackmail Ukraine into announcing two investigations of personal interest to Trump. Even without Trump's self-incrimination, I find it all but easy to explain away all the statements made.
And I have a feeling Republicans in the House agree with that. Their best defenses literally contain points like Schiff wants nudes of Trump, we were shut down when we talked out of turn, we can't bring Hunter Biden in and Fusion GPS was awful. There seems hardly any substantial defense.
(11-21-2019, 03:24 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Impeachable, yes. Grounds for removing him from office? That's trickier. I say that only because removing the POTUS from office is a cataclysmic level event. It's obviously never happened before, thus we have no real basis for comparison. Also, it's not a criminal trial, it's a political process. Because of that, partisanship is always going to be an issue. It was exactly that way during the Clinton impeachment and I don't expect it to be any different this go around. The only real question is who will this hurt and help in the 2020 elections. Obviously those who hate Trump will be unchanged regardless of outcome as will those who love him. What happens with those middle of the road voters is going to be the determinant.
I agree with that, though I always felt in a country where usually 50% do not vote at all voter turnout might be a bigger factor than middle of the road voters.
How this all helps Trump with those middling folk, I can not yet imagine. Those folkswon't buy the "unfair process" defense, and Trump looks horrible in all that.
Also I'd argue that a difference to Clinton might be that the grounds for his impeachment seemed rather petty to many (including me), while in Trump's case there is much more conduct that appears to be effectively damaging to US' national interests.
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(11-21-2019, 03:27 PM)GMDino Wrote: Me: This is sad. Nunes is just sad.
That is true. His openings and this line of questioning is absolutely cringy.
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(11-21-2019, 03:38 PM)hollodero Wrote: That is true. His openings and this line of questioning is absolutely cringy.
I agree.
This is what I was referring to for everyone who isn't listening today (bottom tweet):
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I'd really love to say Nunes did anything of merit but this is it:
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Hill is very good at this.
Having her on the last (possibly) day of public hearings after the GOP has been beat down is masterful.
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The GOP has shown that they will only attack and throw out accusations and don't want answers that demonstrate Trump did what he accused of.
It's been a bad look.
The latest attempt to show that Russia wants to use media to damage US fracking only reinforces that they are interfering.
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Dr. Hill has starred today.
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