Impeachment Hearings

[masonbengals fan]

Both sides should be careful what they wish for.

[Benton]

(01-29-2020, 06:50 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: We are a good ally and like a stable planet I guess? We like to do the right thing and stand up for people and help people. Stuff like that probably.

Doing the right thing by whom?

I'm not being a jerk, I just don't think it's our place to let the country fall apart so that another country's people have an easier time.

[Benton]

(01-29-2020, 11:29 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Both sides should be careful what they wish for.

Tax breaks for the rich and unsustainable amounts of pork going to certain states based on committees?

[masonbengals fan]

(01-29-2020, 11:44 AM)Benton Wrote: Tax breaks for the rich and unsustainable amounts of pork going to certain states based on committees?

 I'm for neither.

[hollodero]

(01-29-2020, 11:40 AM)Benton Wrote: Doing the right thing by whom?

I'm not being a jerk, I just don't think it's our place to let the country fall apart so that another country's people have an easier time.

Some might argue that if you don't spend on fighting Russia now, you will have to spend way more, in funds and possibly lifes, to fight them later. And so in a sense, Ukraine fights a proxy war.
Also, you're not alone in those efforts. The US gave around 3 billion dollars to Ukraine since 2014, much of which are loans. The EU gave 12 billion in the same timeframe.

There are possibly some other things the US spends money on that doesn't help yourself or friends or allies. Like a new aircraft carrier or a space force. The US spends 650 billion on the military, and this is not necessary to protect Ukraine or otrher countries. You could start there.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-29-2020, 12:07 PM)hollodero Wrote: Some might argue that if you don't spend on fighting Russia now, you will have to spend way more, in funds and possibly lifes, to fight them later. And so in a sense, Ukraine fights a proxy war.
Also, you're not alone in those efforts. The US gave around 3 billion dollars to Ukraine since 2014, much of which are loans. The EU gave 12 billion in the same timeframe.

There are possibly some other things the US spends money on that doesn't help yourself or friends or allies. Like a new aircraft carrier or a space force. The US spends 650 billion on the military, and this is not necessary to protect Ukraine or otrher countries. You could start there.

Well they are  in Europe after all.  

[hollodero]

(01-29-2020, 12:10 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Well they are  in Europe after all.  

Sure. And that leads to a whole different can of worms. I'm aware of that.

I just wanted to say that the US is not alone in their efforts. Many countries deem it important that there is a counterweight to Russian expansion. And this is a global issue, not an Europeans only issue.

[jj22]

As Trump attacks Bolton I have to ask his supporters and defenders why he keeps having to save this country from the men he hired?

I thought he hired all great people?

Over the last 3 years he's done more to persuade us he's saving us from all these people who are horrible and a disgrace that he ......... wait for it....... hired.

Only his defenders/supporters let him talk out of both sides of his openings like this. Or it's more likely they are so conned their heads spin.

If you don't have pride for your country have pride for yourself and your family name. How can you keep willfully getting conned?

[*michaelsean*]

(01-29-2020, 12:17 PM)hollodero Wrote: Sure. And that leads to a whole different can of worms. I'm aware of that.

I just wanted to say that the US is not alone in their efforts. Many countries deem it important that there is a counterweight to Russian expansion. And this is a global issue, not an Europeans only issue.

Just have to protect that gap or pass (can't remember the name) in Germany where the Russians were going to roll their tanks through.  

[GMDino]

BREAKING: House Foreign Affairs Chairman Eliot Engel says Bolton told him on a Sept. 23 call that “the committee look into the recall of Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch” and “strongly implied that something improper had occurred around her removal as our top diplomat in Kyiv.” pic.twitter.com/oAx3fCZx7R

— Andrew Desiderio (@AndrewDesiderio) January 29, 2020

[GMDino]

Nothing says innocence like the abject terror the White House is in. https://t.co/rauw8XNn8z

— Molly Jong-Fast (@MollyJongFast) January 29, 2020

 

[hollodero]

OK, I waited for a long time to find the most ridiculous argument, but this one right now at least has to be in the top three for me:

"A president naturally assumes his reelection is in the public interest, hence a quid pro quo serving that purpose is not impeachable".

Wow.

[BmorePat87]

(01-29-2020, 04:18 PM)hollodero Wrote: OK, I waited for a long time to find the most ridiculous argument, but this one right now at least has to be in the top three for me:

"A president naturally assumes his reelection is in the public interest, hence a quid pro quo serving that purpose is not impeachable".

Wow.

Who said that?

[Dill]

(01-29-2020, 10:40 AM)Belsnickel Wrote:
I have long advocated for a big shakeup with our government. That being said, what I want to happen isn't what most people think would be the right thing, but I think we are at a place where many of the weaknesses in our democracy are being laid bare and we need to see that.

Yes, but it's not like the problem is all in Washington and with gaps in the Constitution.

The prime problem is that we have so many people now who cannot sort fact from fiction, are susceptible to conspiracy theories, don't know much about how the law or government work, and don't much care because they feel aggrieved.

Before Trump already, that mass could be stoked up and directed against threats to class structure, protecting the source of their own grievance.  But since Trump's election, he is steering the ship now, not the people who built it.  If you don't want to be tossed overboard, you do what the captain says. Kind of a problem, since he has never been a captain before, knows nothing about seafaring and only picks crew members who agree with him.  

[Dill]

(01-29-2020, 12:39 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Just have to protect that gap or pass (can't remember the name) in Germany where the Russians were going to roll their tanks through.  

Fulda Gap.

[Dill]

(01-29-2020, 05:15 AM)Benton Wrote: Well trump wasn't bribing. Congress had already issued the funds. Trump was just inserting himself to use the funds for his advantage (dirt on a political opponent and an attempt to clear Russia of campaign meddling conspiracy theories).

But you strike on one of my issues with all of this. We shouldn't have been sending them aide in the first place. We've got bridges falling apart, horrific income gaps and veterans sleeping under bridges. Why are we tossing cash at other counties?

Benton, you are a sensible and well informed guy, but I respectfully--and heartily--disagree with you on this one.

1. We can do both--toss cash AND repair our bridges and help our veterans.

2. It is in the US National interest that Russia not continue to violate the sovereignty of European nations, destabilizing their democracies as well as ours. Checking Russia is not a job for the US alone, but something to be done collectively, with our European allies.  Like stationing troops in South Korea and Qatar, it is a cost effective way of stabilizing world order and limiting the reach of bad actors.

The difficulty is now we have a leader who is not much interested in doing any of that--unless there is a personal benefit.  You understand that if we stop all aid to Eastern Europe, that money will no be rerouted to building bridges or veteran shelters in the U.S., right?  If anything, that money will become tax cuts.

[hollodero]

(01-29-2020, 04:29 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Who said that?

I think it was Dershowitz... I was paraphrasing it a bit, of course.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-29-2020, 04:41 PM)Dill Wrote: Fulda Gap.

Ja.  Danke schön.

Mr Hollodero, does your keyboard have the letters with the umlaut included or do you have to add that separately?

[BmorePat87]

(01-29-2020, 04:54 PM)hollodero Wrote: I think it was Dershowitz... I was paraphrasing it a bit, of course.

I just googled it. Damn!

That's a pathetic defense


“Every public official that I know believes that his election is in the public interest,” Dershowitz said. “And mostly you’re right. Your election is in the public interest.”

“And if a president did something that he believes will help him get elected, in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment.”
The comments came in response to a question about the legality of quid pro quos.

Dershowitz added that all elected officials consider things in political terms, asking, “If you’re just acting in the national interest, why do you need pollsters?”
“We may argue that it’s not in the national interest for a particular president to get elected,” he said, “and maybe we’re right,” but in order for it to be impeachable, he argued, one would have to prove that the decision was based solely on “corrupt motives.”
“A complex middle case is ‘I want to be elected. I think I’m a great president. I think I’m the greatest president there ever was and if I’m not elected, the national interest will suffer greatly.’ That cannot be an impeachable offense,” Dershowitz concluded.

https://ktvz.com/politics/2020/01/29/alan-dershowitz-argues-presidential-quid-pro-quos-aimed-at-reelection-are-not-impeachable/

[hollodero]

(01-29-2020, 04:54 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Ja.  Danke schön.

Mr Hollodero, does your keyboard have the letters with the umlaut included or do you have to add that separately?

öäüÖÄÜöäü... they make the keyboards that way in our factories. Added to the right of the keyboard.

I also have this one: ß  ...what a brag.