Insanity defense

[fredtoast]

(09-28-2020, 06:05 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Any person who believes in God should also know that God would not tell them to commit an action that would break HIS laws, too. You know, something like murdering someone else, for example.

You god told Abraham to kill his own son.

[fredtoast]

(09-28-2020, 06:24 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Christian God of course. No one thinks the Muslim God tells his followers to kill people. 

Actually Muslims are more famous for following there gods orders to kill people. (although it is tachnically the same god)

Sorry to interfere with your playing the victim

[Dill]

(09-28-2020, 06:49 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Well of course, you don't know! YOu already admitted to not knowing God. Trust me. He would. 

Prophet!   

Wait . . .

(09-28-2020, 06:49 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Dill Wrote:If God tells you to do "murder" someone, then it's not murder.

Yes, it is.

No! Blasphemy!

(09-28-2020, 06:49 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Which only reinforces the point that God would not ask someone to break His law. 

Only if He decides to completely overturn everything He's ever said about it prior to telling you to do it. I mean, sure, God could change His mind and decide to redefine what a 'murder' is but God's message has been pretty consistent over the last few tens of thousands of years, so I highly doubt He'd change His mind NOW.

Well how does that work with the gay thing then.?We were supposed to kill them 3,000 years ago. How does God stand on that now? Same for witches and adulterers.

Seems to me you are defining a god subject to rule of law.  I am talking about Abraham's God, the one that gives laws. 

[Dill]

(09-28-2020, 07:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You god told Abraham to kill his own son.

Didn't mean it, though.



Looks like I am the only one who voted in your poll.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-28-2020, 07:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If you guys weren't so consume with attacking me you would see that denying the insanity defense to people acting under the direction of God is actuallu SUPPORTING religious belief.  If you allow them to use the insanity defense then you are saying that all religious people are insane.

This is a legitimate debate in legal circle and I brought it up because I recently finished reading "Under the Banner of God" which directly addresses this issue in the trials of Ron and Dan Lafferty, two Mormons who brutally murdered their sister-in-law and her infant daughter because God told them to.  Ron refused to let his lawyers even address the insanity defense.  Dan's lawyers tried and lost.

But now that you guys are finnish taking shots at me do either of you care to give your opinion on the original question?

Do you seriously buy this as you type it?  I'm probably the least religious person on this board and your attack was plan as day.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-28-2020, 06:01 PM)Dill Wrote: You could know a command from God conflicted with some federal or state law--created by humans.

Doubtful if any person who believes in God (the God of Abraham, at least) could think or "know" God told them to commit a wrong action. "Right" is action in accordance with this will, and "wrong" action against it.

More likely the offender would assume the human laws were wrong. 

I'm not a believer, but if God told me "Jump," I wouldn't ask "how high?"  I'd be in the air already.

If you still know it’s wrong in our society, then you are still guilty. I don’t think there is an assertion that the person is unaware of this. The person is simply choosing what he believes to be a higher authority.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-28-2020, 08:21 PM)michaelsean Wrote: If you still know it’s wrong in our society, then you are still guilty. I don’t think there is an assertion that the person is unaware of this. The person is simply choosing what he believes to be a higher authority.

They're both far too busy amusing each other to actually address this point, and I made it in my first post.  Mens rea, i.e. knowing what you are doing is wrong, or against the law, is a key element of our criminal justice system.  Even if God told you to kill someone, you still know you're breaking the law "of man" when you actually do it.  For a lawyer Fred sure does seem to really run from legal arguments.

[BmorePat87]

People rationalize all kinds of bizarre things based on what god tells them. The idea that an omnipotent being gets pissed at two dudes being in love is bizarre, but people still believe it. It's all a little mental to me.

[Dill]

(09-28-2020, 08:21 PM)michaelsean Wrote: If you still know it’s wrong in our society, then you are still guilty. I don’t think there is an assertion that the person is unaware of this. The person is simply choosing what he believes to be a higher authority.

Well "society" will likely consider you guilty, and you may know that they will.

But if you believe God is the higher authority, then "society" is just wrong. Right? 
And you are guilty of disobedience/breaking God's law, if you don't do what God says.

We agree on this, don't we? 

Back to Fred's question, If society does not hear the voice of God along with you, 

then the question arises of whether the command from God you heard was a delusion. That's a question about your sanity.

If it was a delusion, then you were, in that moment, unable to tell right from wrong--in the eyes of those who think the command was delusional.

You would, or should, be considered insane at that moment, even if you knew that "society" would consider you guilty. 

You still had to obey god. You knew that "society's" laws forbid your act, but you also "knew" they were wrong. 

[*bfine32*]

(09-28-2020, 07:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You god told Abraham to kill his own son.

Damn that sounds terrible. Did Abraham do it? 

[fredtoast]

(09-28-2020, 08:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:  For a lawyer Fred sure does seem to really run from legal arguments.

What argument?  I am agreeing with you?  A person who kills someone because god told him to should not be allowed to use the insanity defense.

So I guess that mean you are also "clear as day" attacking religious people, right?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-28-2020, 10:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What argument?  I am agreeing with you?  A person who kills someone because god told him to should not be allowed to use the insanity defense.

So I guess that mean you are also "clear as day" attacking religious people, right?

[fredtoast]

(09-28-2020, 09:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Damn that sounds terrible. Did Abraham do it? 

He passed god test because he was willing to do it.

God let him off the hook, but n ot until he was sure that Abraham was so afraid of Him he would do anything he said including killing his own son.

Funny how I know more about what the Bible says than guys like you who claim to be Christians.

[fredtoast]

(09-28-2020, 07:58 PM)Dill Wrote: Looks like I am the only one who voted in your poll.

I think it is "clear as day" why no one else has answered the question.

If a person really believed he was killing some one at the commad of Gad then he would be prepared to go to prison.  That is what Dan Lafferty said.  He refused to let his attorney's make the argument that he wasinsane.  Instead he just accpeted going to prison.

[*bfine32*]

(09-28-2020, 10:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He passed god test because he was willing to do it.

God let him off the hook, but n ot until he was sure that Abraham was so afraid of Him he would do anything he said including killing his own son.

Funny how I know more about what the Bible says than guys like you who claim to be Christians.

Sure is funny. 

Do you, with your vast knowledge, know why we're called Christians? 

I mean the real ones, not folks like me that just claim to be. 

[Millhouse]

(09-28-2020, 06:05 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Any person who believes in God should also know that God would not tell them to commit an action that would break HIS laws, too. You know, something like murdering someone else, for example.

But, also, if God asks you to break human law, He'd expect you to accept the consequences, as well.

Are we talking about the New Testament or the Old T God? Because the OT God was a pretty ruthless one at times.

[Millhouse]

Anyone that does a crime like that is already insane/crazy/mentally nuts regardless of what excuse they try to use. And if it was up to me, lock them away while throwing the key away forever with zero chance of ever getting out.

[fredtoast]

(09-28-2020, 10:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Sure is funny. 

Do you, with your vast knowledge, know why we're called Christians? 

I mean the real ones, not folks like me that just claim to be. 

Yes, because you accepted Jesus as your savior and asked him to forgive your sins.

Doesn't change the fact that I know more about the Bible than you.

And I don't know which people who claim to be Christians really are.  If your god exists then that is up to him to him to decide, not me.  All I know is that many people who claim to be Christians don't act anything like one around me.

Mathew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven". . . 23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

[*bfine32*]

(09-28-2020, 11:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes, because you accepted Jesus as your savior and asked him to forgive your sins.

Doesn't change the fact that I know more about the Bible than you.

And I don't know which people who claim to be Christians really are.  If your god exists then that is up to him to him to decide, not me.  All I know is that many people who claim to be Christians don't act anything like one around me.

Mathew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven".  .  .  23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

What does "knowing more about the Bible" actually mean?

[*Nately120*]

(09-28-2020, 10:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Sure is funny. 

Do you, with your vast knowledge, know why we're called Christians? 

I mean the real ones, not folks like me that just claim to be. 

Because American politicians needed to unite the zounds of bickering sects of religious types under a single generic banner in order to guide the electoral process?