Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-17-2015, 05:00 PM)michaelsean Wrote: No denied as in not getting what He wants. 

It makes no sense to base our eternal soul on what would be less than a blip in time.  It makes no sense to create these souls, and decide to test them where the end result could be eternal torture.  What is the purpose of that?  

How much sense does it make to ignore instruction that will allow you to spend an eternity in a paradise were there is no pain, anger, loss or hate?

What is so hard about being a Christian? Believer or not, bad things still happen to good people and they have to deal with it. I've done things in my life that anyone would consider un-Christian. I've done things in my life that some Christians would disagree with, though it's not really clearly stated if it's right or wrong (ex: have an alcoholic beverage at dinner). 

This is kind of OT, but i spend the time i do debating people; not because i think they're wrong and they're going to hell. Not because i think my way is better than their way. Not because i believe it's my job as a Christian to tell them what they're doing wrong. I do it because i believe what i believe is real and i want them to make a decision based on their beliefs that have been thoroughly tested by logical, reasoned counterpoints.

[*bfine32*]

(06-17-2015, 05:00 PM)michaelsean Wrote: No denied as in not getting what He wants. 

It makes no sense to base our eternal soul on what would be less than a blip in time.  It makes no sense to create these souls, and decide to test them where the end result could be eternal torture.  What is the purpose of that?  

There is numerous scriptures that states the touture is not eternal.

The wages is death and perish. There is talk of a "second death" prior to forever and ever.

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-17-2015, 05:24 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: How much sense does it make to ignore instruction that will allow you to spend an eternity in a paradise were there is no pain, anger, loss or hate?

What is so hard about being a Christian? Believer or not, bad things still happen to good people and they have to deal with it. I've done things in my life that anyone would consider un-Christian. I've done things in my life that some Christians would disagree with, though it's not really clearly stated if it's right or wrong (ex: have an alcoholic beverage at dinner). 

This is kind of OT, but i spend the time i do debating people; not because i think they're wrong and they're going to hell. Not because i think my way is better than their way. Not because i believe it's my job as a Christian to tell them what they're doing wrong. I do it because i believe what i believe is real and i want them to make a decision based on their beliefs that have been thoroughly tested by logical, reasoned counterpoints.

Do you believe God knew ultimately whether you would end up in heaven or hell before he created you? 

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-17-2015, 05:53 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Do you believe God knew ultimately whether you would end up in heaven or hell before he created you? 

Does he know where someone will end up before they were created? I'd say yes.
Did he plan to create someone, knowing they would end up in hell? I'd say no.
Is everyone given a chance to accept God while they are alive? I'd say yes.
Does God's knowledge of the outcome effect any person in any way while they are alive? I'd say no.

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-17-2015, 06:17 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Does he know where someone will end up before they were created? I'd say yes.
Did he plan to create someone, knowing they would end up in hell? I'd say no.
Is everyone given a chance to accept God while they are alive? I'd say yes.
Does God's knowledge of the outcome effect any person in any way while they are alive? I'd say no.

If God knew I was going to end up in hell before I was created wouldn't that mean I have a 0% "chance" of going to heaven once I was created?

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-17-2015, 11:14 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: If God knew I was going to end up in hell before I was created wouldn't that mean I have a 0% "chance" of going to heaven once I was created?

Yes. But it doesn't mean you were created with the intent to fail. It means you made the wrong choices in your life. Knowledge is the after effect, not the foundation.

Your life didn't end at the start. You made the choices along the way. Knowledge never, nor was it able, to dictate any of the choices.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-18-2015, 01:26 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yes. But it doesn't mean you were created with the intent to fail. It means you made the wrong choices in your life. Knowledge is the after effect, not the foundation.

Your life didn't end at the start. You made the choices along the way. Knowledge never, nor was it able, to dictate any of the choices.

How can knowledge be the after effect of something which hasn't happened?

If God knows I will be condemned to Hell before I am born is it possible for me to accept Jesus as my Savior so I will ascend to Heaven?  No. I can't make the right choices to change my fate if God already knows I'm going to Hell. If I were able to make the right choices then God would know know I'm going to Heaven. If I can't make the correct choices to change my fate then I don't have free will.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

To rfaulk's and Benton, WhoDeyJon is one of those Christians I'm referring to and he was studying to be a pastor. Google can you go to hell if you don't know about Jesus. I'll let their own words explain it.

[Beaker]

(06-18-2015, 02:04 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: How can knowledge be the after effect of something which hasn't happened?

If God knows I will be condemned to Hell before I am born is it possible for me to accept Jesus as my Savior so I will ascend to Heaven?  No. I can't make the right choices to change my fate if God already knows I'm going to Hell. If I were able to make the right choices then God would know know I'm going to Heaven. If I can't make the correct choices to change my fate then I don't have free will.

You are running into the same circular argument they have given me for months. I believe they do it in an attempt to frustrate so they dont have to admit to the fallacy of their logic. They try to muddy the question, but it is very simple....does god know all, or doesnt he? If he does then free will and the decisions of the human have absolutely nothing to do with it. If he knows all, then he knew the choices that would be made before they were even made...or the human was even created. If he doesnt know all, then he isnt really the all knowing all seeing god the religion portrays. So dont get caught up in their circular BS that keeps ignoring the true essence of the question. Does god know all, or doesnt he?

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-18-2015, 02:04 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: How can knowledge be the after effect of something which hasn't happened?

God's knowledge and man's knowledge are two different things. But each are the effect of a primary action. You don't know what's going to happen tomorrow so there are still any number of things you can do that will cause the effect. God's knowledge of the effect has done nothing to influence your actions, it's only the after effect of what you chose along the way. His knowledge is capable of knowing what will happen before it does; yours and mine aren't.

Quote:If God knows I will be condemned to Hell before I am born is it possible for me to accept Jesus as my Savior so I will ascend to Heaven?  No. I can't make the right choices to change my fate if God already knows I'm going to Hell. If I were able to make the right choices then God would know know I'm going to Heaven. If I can't make the correct choices to change my fate then I don't have free will.

No, but you're talking about something that has "already happened" (in God's omniscience). In the moment you're reading this now, your fate, while unknown to you, is still dependent on your actions. Again, you're basing what you can and can't do after it's already over. What has caused it to already be over, in God's knowledge, is the choices you make from the beginning to the end.

You didn't make the choices after you were "condemned to hell". You made them throughout your life and the after effect (knowledge) didn't determine them, it was just a result of them.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-18-2015, 02:11 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: To rfaulk's and Benton, WhoDeyJon is one of those Christians I'm referring to and he was studying to be a pastor. Google can you go to hell if you don't know about Jesus. I'll let their own words explain it.

Not knowing about something and being judged against it doesn't jibe with me. There's no logic or righteousness in it.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-18-2015, 02:18 AM)Beaker Wrote: You are running into the same circular argument they have given me for months. I believe they do it in an attempt to frustrate so they dont have to admit to the fallacy of their logic. They try to muddy the question, but it is very simple....does god know all, or doesnt he? If he does then free will and the decisions of the human have absolutely nothing to do with it. If he knows all, then he knew the choices that would be made before they were even made...or the human was even created. If he doesnt know all, then he isnt really the all knowing all seeing god the religion portrays. So dont get caught up in their circular BS that keeps ignoring the true essence of the question. Does god know all, or doesnt he?

Read post 310. I doubt it will do any good but i have a headache and don't feel like typing it all over again. 

Sorry in advance that it doesn't conform with your claim of circular arguments.

And i'm doubly sorry you can't seem to comprehend it.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-18-2015, 03:18 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Read post 310. I doubt it will do any good but i have a headache and don't feel like typing it all over again. 

Sorry in advance that it doesn't conform with your claim of circular arguments.

And i'm doubly sorry you can't seem to comprehend it.

10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
    though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
    you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
    they hardly hear with their ears,
    and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    hear with their ears,
    understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]
16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
Matthew 13: 10-17

[Ben Richards]

Wow, 4 posts in a row. Great discussion here gang!

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-18-2015, 03:11 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: God's knowledge and man's knowledge are two different things. But each are the effect of a primary action. You don't know what's going to happen tomorrow so there are still any number of things you can do that will cause the effect. God's knowledge of the effect has done nothing to influence your actions, it's only the after effect of what you chose along the way. His knowledge is capable of knowing what will happen before it does; yours and mine aren't.


No, but you're talking about something that has "already happened" (in God's omniscience). In the moment you're reading this now, your fate, while unknown to you, is still dependent on your actions. Again, you're basing what you can and can't do after it's already over. What has caused it to already be over, in God's knowledge, is the choices you make from the beginning to the end.

You didn't make the choices after you were "condemned to hell". You made them throughout your life and the after effect (knowledge) didn't determine them, it was just a result of them.

If God knew I was going to he'll before my birth, I can do nothing on this Earth to prevent that.  Forgone conclusion.

[Beaker]

(06-18-2015, 03:18 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Read post 310. I doubt it will do any good but i have a headache and don't feel like typing it all over again. 

Sorry in advance that it doesn't conform with your claim of circular arguments.

And i'm doubly sorry you can't seem to comprehend it.

I read post 310....and it again doesnt answer the basic question. Does god know all? Does he know the beginning and the end?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-18-2015, 03:16 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Not knowing about something and being judged against it doesn't jibe with me. There's no logic or righteousness in it.

One of their rationalizations is if the non believers are allowed to go to Heaven then what incentive is there to become saved. Also, God will reveal Himself to you if you believe even if you aren't aware of Jesus. I would suggest you read the articles because they quote the verses to support their belief because I don't want to take a position where it seems like I am proving/defending their belief.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-18-2015, 03:11 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: God's knowledge and man's knowledge are two different things. But each are the effect of a primary action. You don't know what's going to happen tomorrow so there are still any number of things you can do that will cause the effect. God's knowledge of the effect has done nothing to influence your actions, it's only the after effect of what you chose along the way. His knowledge is capable of knowing what will happen before it does; yours and mine aren't.


No, but you're talking about something that has "already happened" (in God's omniscience). In the moment you're reading this now, your fate, while unknown to you, is still dependent on your actions. Again, you're basing what you can and can't do after it's already over. What has caused it to already be over, in God's knowledge, is the choices you make from the beginning to the end.

You didn't make the choices after you were "condemned to hell". You made them throughout your life and the after effect (knowledge) didn't determine them, it was just a result of them.

If I am omniscient, but not omnipotent, and know tonght's winning lottery numbers the winning numbers are the only numbers which will be drawn. It is impossible for any nonwinning numbers to be drawn. Because if a different number were to be drawn in the future it would change the future which I saw, but  because I'm omniscient I would have seen that change from the beginning.

So although I didn't affect anything the result cannot change. So if God knows I will reject him before Creation there is no possible way for me to accept Him. Because if I chose to accept God in my future life, God would know I'm going to Heaven.  But, God knows I'm going to Hell, not Heaven.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-18-2015, 09:39 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: If God knew I was going to he'll before my birth, I can do nothing on this Earth to prevent that.  Forgone conclusion.

Because you made the wrong decisions while you were here. 

That was your fault.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-18-2015, 03:11 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: God's knowledge and man's knowledge are two different things. But each are the effect of a primary action. You don't know what's going to happen tomorrow so there are still any number of things you can do that will cause the effect. God's knowledge of the effect has done nothing to influence your actions, it's only the after effect of what you chose along the way. His knowledge is capable of knowing what will happen before it does; yours and mine aren't.

I agree.

Quote:No, but you're talking about something that has "already happened" (in God's omniscience). In the moment you're reading this now, your fate, while unknown to you, is still dependent on your actions. Again, you're basing what you can and can't do after it's already over. What has caused it to already be over, in God's knowledge, is the choices you make from the beginning to the end.

I agree.

Quote:You didn't make the choices after you were "condemned to hell". You made them throughout your life and the after effect (knowledge) didn't determine them, it was just a result of them.

I agree.

I'm going to Hell based upon my choices. God already knows my future choices before I make them.  God already knows I'm going to Hell for the choices I will make in the future.   If God knows I'm going to Hell for the choices I will make in the future it is impossible for me to make different choices so I can go to Heaven.