Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered

[Beaker]

(06-15-2015, 09:28 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote:  You are born knowing you will die.  No choice.  God created Adam and Eve knowing they would fail.  Failure was the only outcome.  The future was fixed.  Predetermination, fate, destiny, etc.  God didn't ask them to choose.  He asked them for blind obedience.

I have often posed that question. If god is omnipotent, it makes no sense that he would create evil beings, just to condemn them to hell....since he supposedly loves all his creations and wants them beside him. He would know before he even created them what choices they would make. If he didnt know, then he was not really omnipotent after all. Just bad fundamental logic.

[Benton]

(06-15-2015, 12:57 PM)Beaker Wrote: I have often posed that question. If god is omnipotent, it makes no sense that he would create evil beings, just to condemn them to hell....since he supposedly loves all his creations and wants them beside him. He would know before he even created them what choices they would make. If he didnt know, then he was not really omnipotent after all. Just bad fundamental logic.

My daughter is 6. She hates to clean her room. I always give her an option – clean your room, get a prize (usually a Blizzard), or don't clean your room and don't get a pick on TV all weekend.



She doesn't watch much TV on weekends. I know she's not going to clean her room. I don't emphatically know, no, but I know like a parent knows my daughter is not going to clean her room. That doesn't stop me from throwing out option A, option B.

And He doesn't create evil beings. He creates life. Life chooses its own path, its own option A, option B. That's actually a big part of Christianity, accepting that your choices are your own and they lead you to where you end up.

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-15-2015, 01:05 PM)Benton Wrote: My daughter is 6. She hates to clean her room. I always give her an option – clean your room, get a prize (usually a Blizzard), or don't clean your room and don't get a pick on TV all weekend.



She doesn't watch much TV on weekends. I know she's not going to clean her room. I don't emphatically know, no, but I know like a parent knows my daughter is not going to clean her room. That doesn't stop me from throwing out option A, option B.

And He doesn't create evil beings. He creates life. Life chooses its own path, its own option A, option B. That's actually a big part of Christianity, accepting that your choices are your own and they lead you to where you end up.

Your analogy with your daughter is weak because you aren't an omnipotent all-knowing god.  If you had absolute knowledge of your daughter's actions before she made them it would be completely futile to provide her various options (you already know what she is going to do already).  I doubt you would allow her the option of leaving the house if you KNEW that the consequence would be death.  You'd probably lock her in her room to prevent it from happening.  

Moreover if God already knows the story of your life before you were even born to live it, then your only real "options" are to act precisely in the way he foresaw you acting.  You only have the illusion of "options".  It's like watching the Titanic and thinking the boat has the option to not hit an iceberg and sink.  

The all-knowing God renders the notion of "free-will" illogical.  

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-15-2015, 01:27 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Your analogy with your daughter is weak 

That's pretty amusing considering your analogy to me a few posts up.

Since i'm on lunch right now and don't have the time, i'll answer the previous replies to me, later tonight. I just wanted to point out the part of your post that caused me to chuckle.

[*bfine32*]

So I see we have came to the Age old question: "Why does God allow evil?"

If folks wish they can gain some insight on this question by reading the Agustinian, Irenaean, and/or Process Theodicies

or

You can just accept the fact that good and evil can coexisit

or

You can use evil as proof that God does not exist.

The choice is up to you.

[Benton]

(06-15-2015, 01:27 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Your analogy with your daughter is weak because you aren't an omnipotent all-knowing god.  If you had absolute knowledge of your daughter's actions before she made them it would be completely futile to provide her various options (you already know what she is going to do already).  I doubt you would allow her the option of leaving the house if you KNEW that the consequence would be death.  You'd probably lock her in her room to prevent it from happening.  

Moreover if God already knows the story of your life before you were even born to live it, then your only real "options" are to act precisely in the way he foresaw you acting.  You only have the illusion of "options".  It's like watching the Titanic and thinking the boat has the option to not hit an iceberg and sink.  

The all-knowing God renders the notion of "free-will" illogical.  

Eh, not surprisingly, I'll disagree.

I (along with her mom) made my daughter with the hopes that she will be perfect. I know she won't be. Not because I didn't give her a perfect template to work with, but because she won't make perfect choices.   That didn't stop us from making her.

 The only way for us to know something for sure is going to happen is after the fact. Hindsight. I'm fortunate in that nothing too bad has befallen either of my kids (my son is adopted). But if something did, I wouldn't look back with hindsight after and say I shouldn't have had them. God doesn't see someone who makes mistakes and say "well, guess I shouldn't have made him." That wouldn't really be love. With that, you want the best and lament the bad.

People have a hard time with a God that lets bad things happen to those He loves. I don't have an answer for that, outside of bad things happen. And sometimes they happen because of our free will, things we do to ourselves. Sometimes its things done because of someone else's free will. And sometimes it's just something bad that happens. It doesn't change the way you feel for someone when they make a mistake, or when they become the victim of one.

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-15-2015, 02:08 PM)Benton Wrote: Eh, not surprisingly, I'll disagree.

I (along with her mom) made my daughter with the hopes that she will be perfect. I know she won't be. Not because I didn't give her a perfect template to work with, but because she won't make perfect choices.   That didn't stop us from making her.

All-knowing Gods don't "hope".  They know.  That's why you are not a god and that's why your analogy is painfully lacking.  If you knew with absolute certainity that your daughter would ultimately be the second coming of Adolf Hitler would you feel the same way about your choice to have her?  Would you bear no responsibility for knowingly forcing such a brutal dictator on the world?   

Quote:The only way for us to know something for sure is going to happen is after the fact.  Hindsight. I'm fortunate in that nothing too bad has befallen either of my kids (my son is adopted). But if something did, I wouldn't look back with hindsight after and say I shouldn't have had them. God doesn't see someone who makes mistakes and say "well, guess I shouldn't have made him." That wouldn't really be love. With that, you want the best and lament the bad.

Not if you are an all-knowing god.  Supposedly he has perfect knowledge of your actions before you are even born.  Why would a god who knew before he even created Adam or Eve react so irrationally when they behaved exactly as he knew they would?  Especially given the fact that it was HIS CHOICE and HIS CHOICE ONLY to create them?

Quote:People have a hard time with a God that lets bad things happen to those He loves. I don't have an answer for that, outside of bad things happen. And sometimes they happen because of our free will, things we do to ourselves. Sometimes its things done because of someone else's free will. And sometimes it's just something bad that happens. It doesn't change the way you feel for someone when they make a mistake, or when they become the victim of one.

I don't necessarily have a "hard time" with it.  I have a hard time with the logic that an all-powerful, all-knowing god is somehow "Good" for doing so.  If he is ultimately the "first cause" and he KNEW in advance what his actions would spawn, then bad things happen precisely because he wants them to.  We have no freedom to act in any way he didn't already know about before the first man even existed.

How you can pretend like he isn't ultimately responsible just baffles me.  

[Beaker]

(06-15-2015, 01:05 PM)Benton Wrote: My daughter is 6. She hates to clean her room. I always give her an option – clean your room, get a prize (usually a Blizzard), or don't clean your room and don't get a pick on TV all weekend.



She doesn't watch much TV on weekends. I know she's not going to clean her room. I don't emphatically know, no, but I know like a parent knows my daughter is not going to clean her room. That doesn't stop me from throwing out option A, option B.

And He doesn't create evil beings. He creates life. Life chooses its own path, its own option A, option B. That's actually a big part of Christianity, accepting that your choices are your own and they lead you to where you end up.

Your daughter analogy doesnt address the point. The bible portrays god as omnipotent. It calls him the alpha and the omega....the beginning and the end. He knows all and sees all. You are not omnipotent. You do not know before your daughter chooses what choice she will make. A creator who already sees the beginning and the end does. So when god made Hitler, he already knew the choices Hitler would make....otherwise he was not truly an omnipotent god. Yet he chose to create that being anyway, knowing he would be condemned to hell. It just doesnt make any logical sense.

I dont want to hear about free will. That is irrelevant to the point. The point is that if god is truly all knowing, he is choosing to create those who he already knows will make the wrong choices. Its god's choice we're talking about here, not the human's choice.

[Belsnickel]

Just, throwing this out there. I am seeing omnipotent being thrown out there as synonymous with all knowing a lot in this thread. The word you are looking for is omniscient.

[Benton]

Quote:WhoDeyWho
All-knowing Gods don't "hope". They know. That's why you are not a god and that's why your analogy is painfully lacking.

And that's about all the response I'll get into. Or read. I'll give you the ultimate trump card of "you don't know what it's like to be a god." No one does. Like most people, I'm only trying to make it in relative terms. I, lacking any supreme powers, admit that I am not God. Or a god. Or even god-like.

Dang... you got me. If you'll excuse me, I'll go change my business cards.

[Benton]

(06-15-2015, 02:28 PM)Beaker Wrote: Your daughter analogy doesnt address the point. The bible portrays god as omnipotent. It calls him the alpha and the omega....the beginning and the end. He knows all and sees all. You are not omnipotent. You do not know before your daughter chooses what choice she will make. A creator who already sees the beginning and the end does. So when god made Hitler, he already knew the choices Hitler would make....otherwise he was not truly an omnipotent god. Yet he chose to create that being anyway, knowing he would be condemned to hell. It just doesnt make any logical sense.

I dont want to hear about free will. That is irrelevant to the point. The point is that if god is truly all knowing, he is choosing to create those who he already knows will make the wrong choices. Its god's choice we're talking about here, not the human's choice.

And God loved him anyway. Hitler was a horrible being, but that doesn't mean he wasn't loved along with everyone else.

And knowing someone is going to do something (omniscience) is not the same thing as doing it. Knowing they will make the wrong choice doesn't mean He doesn't love them or make Him any less omnipotent. Which is not the same thing as omniscient.

I think your confusion is you're overlapping the two terms.

Omniscient means he knows everything. Omnipotent means he can do anything. One doesn't mean he has to do the other.

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-15-2015, 02:42 PM)Benton Wrote: And God loved him anyway. Hitler was a horrible being, but that doesn't mean he wasn't loved along with everyone else.

Of course "God loved him".  He only existed because God wanted him to right?  He obviously had a part to play in God's overall scheme.

Quote:And knowing someone is going to do something (omniscience) is not the same thing as doing it. Knowing they will make the wrong choice doesn't mean He doesn't love them or make Him any less omnipotent. Which is not the same thing as omniscient. 

Have you ever heard of an accessory to a crime?  Well, God happens to be the ultimate accessory by biblical definition.

Quote:I think your confusion is you're overlapping the two terms.

Again, have you ever heard of an accessory to a crime?  

Quote:Omniscient means he knows everything. Omnipotent means he can do anything. One doesn't mean he has to do the other.

An all-knowing God who is powerless to control outcomes isn't omnipotent.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-15-2015, 01:05 PM)Benton Wrote: My daughter is 6. She hates to clean her room. I always give her an option – clean your room, get a prize (usually a Blizzard), or don't clean your room and don't get a pick on TV all weekend.



She doesn't watch much TV on weekends. I know she's not going to clean her room. I don't emphatically know, no, but I know like a parent knows my daughter is not going to clean her room. That doesn't stop me from throwing out option A, option B.

And He doesn't create evil beings. He creates life. Life chooses its own path, its own option A, option B. That's actually a big part of Christianity, accepting that your choices are your own and they lead you to where you end up.

By the age of 6, you have instilled a sense of right and wrong in your daughter. Her conscience isn't fully developed, but she has a rudimentary understanding. I'm sure she knows if she doesn't do what Dad tells her that is bad.

Adam and Eve didn't have that understanding. They couldn't understand wrong until after they did wrong by eating the forbidden fruit. God told Eve she would die if she ate the forbidden fruit. The serpent told her she wouldn't die if she ate the forbidden fruit. Eve was like, "Oh, okay. " She didn't have the ability to know what the snake was suggesting was wrong because she didn't know what "wrong" was.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-15-2015, 02:42 PM)Benton Wrote: And God loved him anyway. Hitler was a horrible being, but that doesn't mean he wasn't loved along with everyone else.

And knowing someone is going to do something (omniscience) is not the same thing as doing it. Knowing they will make the wrong choice doesn't mean He doesn't love them or make Him any less omnipotent. Which is not the same thing as omniscient.

I think your confusion is you're overlapping the two terms.

Omniscient means he knows everything. Omnipotent means he can do anything. One doesn't mean he has to do the other.

You and God go to see a movie together. You haven't seen any previews or read any reviews, don't have any idea what the movie is about. The possibilities of what will happen in the movie are endless to you. God has already seen the movie, knows all the plot twists, has seen the ending and knows how everything turns out because he wrote, directed, produced, and starred in the movie. To God, there aren't any surprises because he knows what is going to happen because he has seen it before. No matter how many times you two watch the movie it is always the same because the characters always "choose" the same choices.

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-15-2015, 03:18 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You and God go to see a movie together. You haven't seen any previews or read any reviews, don't have any idea what the movie is about. The possibilities of what will happen in the movie are endless to you. God has already seen the movie, knows all the plot twists, has seen the ending and knows how everything turns out because he wrote, directed, produced, and starred in the movie. To God, there aren't any surprises because he knows what is going to happen because he has seen it before. No matter how many times you two watch the movie it is always the same because the characters always "choose" the same choices.

The possibilities are "endless" because he lacks the knowledge that God has.  God would know that only one course of action is possible from beginning to end.  

That's where the "illusion" of endless possibilities come in.  With an all-knowing God who saw the movie before it was even created, the only possibilities are what he KNOWS will happen.

That's why "free will" in the context of an all-knowing God makes absolutely no sense.  It would seem more feasible if God created people not knowing what course of action they would take.  

Otherwise, why would he even bother?  There is absolutely no drama in it for him.  It would be like watching a re-run of Titanic and yelling at Leonardo to stay off the boat.  It is an idiotic waste of time.  I'd imagine a god would have better things to do.  

[*michaelsean*]

Knowledge isn't predestination. But I do disagree with most Christian views of God. I think it would be quite unfair to throw us down here with no knowledge, and tell us we have maybe 80 years, if we are lucky, to figure it out or spend eternity being tortured.

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-15-2015, 03:30 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Knowledge isn't predestination.  But I do disagree with most Christian views of God.  I think it would be quite unfair to throw us down here with no knowledge, and tell us we have maybe 80 years, if we are lucky, to figure it out or spend eternity being tortured.

I would argue that it is when you have knowledge of the event before it occurs.  

The fact that you know something will happen with certainty prior to it happening sort of dictates that it happens.

Otherwise, it isn't "knowledge".  It is a guess.  

[*michaelsean*]

So can you actually go from free will to predestined if someone were to acquire knowledge of the future, and tells nobody?

[Benton]

(06-15-2015, 03:02 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: By the age of 6, you have instilled a sense of right and wrong in your daughter. Her conscience isn't fully developed, but she has a rudimentary understanding. I'm sure she knows if she doesn't do what Dad tells her that is bad.

Adam and Eve didn't have that understanding. They couldn't understand wrong until after they did wrong by eating the forbidden fruit. God told Eve she would die if she ate the forbidden fruit. The serpent told her she wouldn't die if she ate the forbidden fruit. Eve was like, "Oh, okay. " She didn't have the ability to know what the snake was suggesting was wrong because she didn't know what "wrong" was.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by saying it's different and then using that example which is the same thing. One, a parent says "do/don't do" and the other a parent says "do/don't do."

Neither a 6 year old nor someone of innocence at an older age (we assume, anyway, Genesis doesn't state their ages as it's all allegory), understand good and evil, only do/don't.

Want a mulligan?

[Benton]

(06-15-2015, 03:18 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You and God go to see a movie together. You haven't seen any previews or read any reviews, don't have any idea what the movie is about. The possibilities of what will happen in the movie are endless to you. God has already seen the movie, knows all the plot twists, has seen the ending and knows how everything turns out because he wrote, directed, produced, and starred in the movie. To God, there aren't any surprises because he knows what is going to happen because he has seen it before. No matter how many times you two watch the movie it is always the same because the characters always "choose" the same choices.

Which isn't the same and I think you're mixing metaphors. Or something.

In your instance, God is omnipotent. He knows what's happening because he made every character act that way.

Which is different than the belief that god is omniscient. In that instance, He knows what's going to happen because to Him it's already happened. The concept of time (linear) is irrelevant because it's all the same experience for Him.

So, to fit your example into what the terms actually mean, God and I go to a movie. He knows the ending because He's already seen it. He knows He doesn't like it, but goes with me because I wanted to. I make it halfway through and realize, I don't really like Reese Witherspoon, so I leave. He didn't make me leave, although He could (omnipotent) He allowed me to make up my mind for myself and stay or leave as I wanted. And He knew I would (omniscient).