(04-17-2018, 07:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Where is it stated the manager asked them to leave before calling the cops? I haven't seen that reported anywhere, so I'm just curious.
I got it from the OP. But, after re-reading the article, it explicitly states that the POLICE asked them to leave, but it doesn't say the manager did. You can infer that they were asked to leave by the statement where it says: "but had not purchased anything and refused to leave" but admittedly it is vagure.
(04-17-2018, 07:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: What kind of business is this? I know for Starbucks this sort of behavior is extremely common. Different businesses operate differently.
I work at a bank. But, yeah, it would seem unusual to notice or even care of people loitering at a Starbucks. Still, even at a Starbucks, if you're asked to leave and refuse, you're trespassing.
(04-18-2018, 12:29 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I got it from the OP. But, after re-reading the article, it explicitly states that the POLICE asked them to leave, but it doesn't say the manager did. You can infer that they were asked to leave by the statement where it says: "but had not purchased anything and refused to leave" but admittedly it is vagure.
Honestly, I have no idea how one could suggest they were not asked to leave when someone states they refused to leave Unless of course they had handcuffed themselves to the furniture.
(04-18-2018, 12:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Honestly, I have no idea how one could suggest they were not asked to leave when someone states they refused to leave Unless of course they had handcuffed themselves to the furniture.
You've never heard or seen the phrase used when there was no actual attempt, verbal or otherwise, to get someone to do something?
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(04-18-2018, 10:35 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I actually don't think the majority of incidents like this, or policies, are intended to be racially biased. This is why I talk so much about implicit biases. These are unconscious biases that do, in fact, guide a lot of our decisions in life. I contend that if these were white people, then cops would not have been called. Even if cops had been called, they would not have responded in the way they did. Those things are the result of implicit racial biases.
Remember my anecdote I mentioned earlier? I've called the cops on people refusing to leave a few times. All but one were on white people. The one that wasn't was Hispanic.
I don't deny that there are many people that would call the cops on black people but not on white people in similar situations, but just because it happened in this particular instance doesn't automatically equate to an implicit bias unless it can be shown that the same person in the same situation did not call the cops on white people who did the exact same thing that these black people did.
(04-18-2018, 12:52 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You've never heard or seen the phrase used when there was no actual attempt, verbal or otherwise, to get someone to do something?
No. I have never heard the phase used in which no request was made and I highly doubt anyone would call 911 and say a patron has refused to leave without first making the request. Of course it is just an assumption on my part, but it is one grounded in logic. Do you really believe the gentlemen had no idea that the manger wanted them to either purchase something or leave?
WTS the point is too silly to debate further. I choose to go with the gentlemen knew management wanted them to leave before the arrival on the police, you can roll with I have no indication.
(04-18-2018, 12:26 PM)Benton Wrote: Heard on NPR that Starbucks is doing sensitivity training. I don't really follow, I guess.
The guys weren't buying anything, they were just loitering. The manager was within rights to ask them to leave.
Unless the manager is lying about talking to the guys and just went straight to the police, the only thing I can think is because of our hyper-sensitve culture. Heaven forbid we hold black people to the same standard as others and if doing so generates negative news, by all means, apologize apologize apologize and provide sensitivity training. But NEVER stand your ground.
(04-18-2018, 12:26 PM)Benton Wrote: Heard on NPR that Starbucks is doing sensitivity training. I don't really follow, I guess.
The guys weren't buying anything, they were just loitering. The manager was within rights to ask them to leave.
They have an image to protect. Right or wrong, their image may have been tarnished a bit so they make a grand gesture.
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall
(04-18-2018, 12:26 PM)Benton Wrote: Heard on NPR that Starbucks is doing sensitivity training. I don't really follow, I guess.
The guys weren't buying anything, they were just loitering. The manager was within rights to ask them to leave.
It's because we live in a reactive society. I remember back in the Military we would have short-notice training on thinks such as Don't drink and drive. You could bet your behind it was because someone just got a DUI. Didn't matter that we had regularly scheduled annual, semi-annual training. We want to show we are being proactive by being reactive.
Just ask yourself when do gun debates heat up in this forum
(04-18-2018, 12:26 PM)Benton Wrote: Heard on NPR that Starbucks is doing sensitivity training. I don't really follow, I guess.
The guys weren't buying anything, they were just loitering. The manager was within rights to ask them to leave.
(04-18-2018, 01:45 PM)michaelsean Wrote: They have an image to protect. Right or wrong, their image may have been tarnished a bit so they make a grand gesture.
And that's why I wonder if the policy of asking people to leave was really a thing for everywhere or not.
It would be easier to say "We do not condone this as a company. One employee handled a single situation wrong based on a misunderstanding of our policies" than to shutdown everywhere for an entire day.
Still saves the image and I just don't see a need for the "grand gesture" here if it was an isolated event. And you can bet there will be a lawsuit no matter what the corporate response is.
Maybe the owner REALLY wants to make sure such things don't happen again and REALLY cares deeply about it?
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(04-18-2018, 01:02 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I don't deny that there are many people that would call the cops on black people but not on white people in similar situations, but just because it happened in this particular instance doesn't automatically equate to an implicit bias unless it can be shown that the same person in the same situation did not call the cops on white people who did the exact same thing that these black people did.
MOST customers regardless of race just go ahead and buy the coffee they are going to buy a few minutes later, anyway. And MOST employees are just going to go ahead and give you the key when you ask a second time, or you say you're waiting or whatever (they really have no desire, time or incentive to sit there and argue with you).
It's when those OTHER customers meet those OTHER employees that things can sometimes escalate to the cops being called.
What I'm trying to say is, BOTH customer and employee were most likely assholes. And instead of just firing the guy, Starbucks is having a nationwide day of training
Quote:Viral Video Of Black Man Demanding (And Getting) Free 'Reparations' Coffee From Starbucks Is Not What You Think
Amanda PrestigiacomoApril 18, 2018
Screenshot: Hotep Jesus via Twitter
Political vlogger Bryan Sharpe, AKA "Hotep Jesus," filmed himself walking into a Starbucks and demanding free "reparations" coffee from a white barista in light of recent allegedly racist incidents involving black men at two of the company's stores. Sharpe did indeed receive the free coffee and the video quickly went viral online. In Twitter postings, Sharpe implored other black folks to tape themselves demanding free coffee, too, as part of the "#StarbucksChallenge."
Sharpe's stunt, however, was not done to get free things by virtue of his skin tone and encourage others "entitled" to do the same, but to highlight how "white guilt" and "black privilege" got him free coffee, which, he says, is actually racist.
He also noted the potent "business" aspect to modern ostensibly anti-racism movements.
“Racism is a business," Sharpe told The Blaze. "Thanks to the ridiculousness of BLM activists, it’s the new publicity stunt — and I think I just proved it.”
Prefacing the event, Sharpe says at the top of the video that he's about to go inside the Starbucks located behind him and get his "free coffee." He was apparently confident the white guilt at any liberal Starbucks would be abundant.
“I heard y’all was racist, so I came to get my, um, free coffee,” he tells a white barista named Amanda.
“I saw that!” says the young Starbucks employee, quickly adding that it was "not our store!"
“Yeah, I heard you guys don’t like black people, so I came to get my Starbucks reparations voucher,” Sharpe tells her.
Of course, the white Starbucks worker happily complies. "I'll give you a free coffee," she says.
“That’s what I’m talking about! This is justice,” Sharpe rejoices. “This is justice. This is what I’m talking about.”
"Black lives matter," he says, clearly now just trolling the hell out of her.
"Yes, they do!" she predictably responds.
"Black privilege gets me free coffee. I love racism. Only in America," posted Sharpe, adding a #StarbucksChallenge hashtag to another tweet.
(04-18-2018, 10:52 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Did you guys see the black guy who went into Starbucks and demanded free coffee as reparations........ and they gave it to him.
I would never have the balls to do something like that.
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall
Quote: Rashon Nelson initially brushed it off when the Starbucks manager told him he couldn’t use the restroom because he wasn’t a paying customer.
He thought nothing of it when he and his business partner, Donte Robinson, were approached at their table and were asked if they needed help. The 23-year-old entrepreneurs declined, explaining they were just waiting for a business meeting.
A few minutes later, they hardly noticed when the police walked into the coffee shop — until officers started walking in their direction.
“That’s when we knew she called the police on us,” Nelson told The Associated Press in the men’s first interview since video of their April 12 arrests went viral.
Nelson and Robinson, black men who became best friends in the fourth grade, were taken in handcuffs from the Starbucks in Philadelphia’s tony Rittenhouse Square neighborhood, where Robinson has been a customer since he was 15.
The video, recorded on a white customer’s cellphone video, galvanized people around the country who saw the exchange as modern-day racism. In the week since, the men have met with Starbucks’ CEO and have started pushing for lasting changes to ensure what happened to them doesn’t happen to anyone else.
“We were there for a real reason, a real deal that we were working on,” Robinson explained. “We put in a lot of time, energy, effort. ... We were at a moment that could have a positive impact on a whole ladder of people, lives, families. So I was like, ‘No, you’re not stopping that right now.’”
[url=https://twitter.com/Starbucks]@Starbucks The police were called because these men hadn’t ordered anything. They were waiting for a friend to show up, who did as they were taken out in handcuffs for doing nothing. All the other white ppl are wondering why it’s never happened to us when we do the same thing. 5:12 PM - Apr 12, 2018
Robinson said he thought about his loved ones and how the afternoon had taken such a turn as he was taken to jail. Nelson wondered if he’d make it home alive.
“Anytime I’m encountered by cops, I can honestly say it’s a thought that runs through my mind,” Nelson said. “You never know what’s going to happen.”
Democratic Mayor Jim Kenney, who is white, said what happened at the Starbucks “appears to exemplify what racial discrimination looks like in 2018.” Police Commissioner Richard Ross, who’s black, said in a Facebook post that arresting officers “did absolutely nothing wrong,” and added that Nelson and Robinson were disrespectful to officers.
Ross said officers did what they were supposed to do and were professional in their dealings with the men, “and instead they got the opposite back.”
Nelson and Robinson originally were supposed to meet Andrew Yaffe, a white local businessman, at a Starbucks across town. But the plan changed, and they agreed to meet at the Rittenhouse Square location, where they’d met several times before on a potential real estate opportunity.
The black men arrived a few minutes early. Three police officers showed up not long after.
Nelson said they weren’t questioned but were told to leave immediately.
Yaffe showed up as the men were being handcuffed. He can be seen in the video demanding an explanation for the officers’ actions. Nelson and Robinson did not resist arrest, confused and unsure of what to think or what might happen next.
“When you know that you did nothing wrong, how do you really react to it?” Nelson said. “You can either be ignorant or you can show some type of sophistication and act like you have class. That was the choice we had.”
It was hardly their first encounter with police, a rite of passage that becomes a regular occurrence for many black men their age. But neither had been arrested before, setting them apart from many of their peers in the gritty southwest Philadelphia neighborhood where they grew up.
Robinson briefly wondered what he might’ve done to bring the moment on himself.
“I feel like I fell short,” he explained. “I’m trying to think of something I did wrong, to put not just me but my brother, my lifelong friend ... in this situation.”
Attorney Stewart Cohen, representing Nelson and Robinson, said the men were illegally profiled. He pointed to Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of race in hotels, restaurants, theaters and other public accommodations.
Seattle-based Starbucks Corp. has said the location where the arrests occurred has a policy that restrooms are for paying customers only.
Nelson and Robinson spent hours in a jail cell with no outside contact and no sense of what would happen next. They were released after midnight, when the district attorney declined to prosecute them for trespassing. They had no idea the video of their arrests was making the rounds on the internet.
The day after their arrests, they thought about what to do next.
“You go from being someone who’s just trying to be an entrepreneur, having your own dreams and aspirations, and then this happens,” Nelson said. “How do you handle it? Do you stand up? Do you fight? Do you sit down and just watch everyone else fight for you? Do you let it slide, like we let everything else slide with injustice?”
Robinson, still focused on the previous day’s business deal, called Yaffe to reschedule. Yaffe told him about the video and the traction it had gotten.
Over the weekend, attention and outrage over the video grew, prompting a protest at the local Starbucks restaurant and a national boycott. By Monday, the men were set to meet with Starbucks CEO Kevin Johnson to discuss what happened.
Johnson has responded quickly to public outcry around the arrests, calling them “reprehensible,” apologizing and ordering stores closed for mandatory training to tackle unconscious bias.
Nelson and Robinson said they’re looking for more lasting results and are in mediation proceedings with Starbucks to implement changes, including the posting in stores of a customer bill of rights; the adoption of new policies regarding customer ejections, racial profiling and racial discrimination; and independent investigations of complaints of profiling or discrimination from customers and employees.
Robinson said he appreciates the public support the men have received but anger and boycotting Starbucks are not the solution.
“We need a different type of action ... not words,” he said. “It’s a time to pay attention and understand what’s really going on. We do want a seat at the table.”
Just for emphasis:
Quote:Rashon Nelson initially brushed it off when the Starbucks manager told him he couldn’t use the restroom because he wasn’t a paying customer.
He thought nothing of it when he and his business partner, Donte Robinson, were approached at their table and were asked if they needed help. The 23-year-old entrepreneurs declined, explaining they were just waiting for a business meeting.
A few minutes later, they hardly noticed when the police walked into the coffee shop — until officers started walking in their direction.
If that is what happened then they were not "asked to leave" as had been inferred from the 911 call.
Also, based on the videos, which cover from the time the officers get there, I cannot understand how the Commissioner says the two men were unprofessional in their dealings with the arresting officers.
And they were only released, eight hours later, because the DA wouldn't press charges? That's screwed up. If you're gonna hold someone you have charges filed and they should have immediate access to their/a lawyer.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
I'd give him a free coffee to get him out the place too.
If he got the coffee or not he would have claimed a "win".
Conversions are the best money makers. David Horowitz and the Morning Joe guy come to mind.
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall
(04-19-2018, 10:26 AM)GMDino Wrote: If that is what happened then they were not "asked to leave" as had been inferred from the 911 call.
Yes, "IF" that is what happened. But what is more likely to have happened: they were asked to leave because they didn't order anything and refused or that an employee just decided to go ahead and call the cops on them without warning?
GMDino Wrote:And they were only released, eight hours later, because the DA wouldn't press charges? That's screwed up. If you're gonna hold someone you have charges filed and they should have immediate access to their/a lawyer.
In my experience (and by that, I mean all those episodes of Law & Order I've watched), police have up to 24 hours before they have to let them go or file charges.
(04-19-2018, 01:23 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes, "IF" that is what happened. But what is more likely to have happened: they were asked to leave because they didn't order anything and refused or that an employee just decided to go ahead and call the cops on them without warning?
All along I have said we didn't hear from either the two men or the employee. Now we have one story from the two men. Until we hear from the other side we at least have something more that an inference. So far. Of course that could change.
(04-19-2018, 01:23 PM)PhilHos Wrote: In my experience (and by that, I mean all those episodes of Law & Order I've watched), police have up to 24 hours before they have to let them go or file charges.
Hadn't really thought about that. Still would suck that they are in jail and can't have contact with anyone let alone an attorney even if that is true.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
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