Is Starbucks Racist?

[GMDino]

More details:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/04/19/starbucks-victims-speak-out-ask-their-arrests-inspire-change/531582002/

Quote:The pair arrived at the coffee shop in the Center City neighborhood of downtown Philadelphia at 4:35 p.m. on Thursday for a 4:45 p.m. meeting about a real estate deal they'd been working on for months, according to the interview. Nelson asked to use the bathroom, but was told it was for paying customers only, so the two men sat down to wait for the business associate. An employee then came over to ask if they wanted to order anything, but because they had bottled water with them, they declined. The 911 call was placed at 4:37 p.m.

Robinson said the police officers didn't read them their Miranda rights.

They sound well spoken men who don't want this to be all about race either:

Quote:The two black men arrested at a Philadelphia Starbucks last week, speaking out Thursday for the first time, said they hope the racial-bias incident that sparked a furor and calls for boycott will result in change.



"It’s not just a black people thing. This is a people thing," Rashon Nelson said in appearing with Donte Robinson on ABC's Good Morning America. "And that’s exactly what we want to see out of this and that’s true change...Put action into place."
They said the case, in which store personnel ordered them to leave as they waited for a friend without buying food or drinks, is about basic fairness.

"Rules are rules, but what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. That’s in any situation whether there's race involved or anything," Robinson said. "I want to make sure that this situation doesn't happen again, so what I want is for... young men to not be traumatized by this and instead motivated, inspired."

So is two minutes too long to sit?  Could the employee have really asked them to leave in two minutes?  I suppose if the employee tells their side we will find out more.

[*PhilHos*]

(04-19-2018, 04:15 PM)GMDino Wrote: More details:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/04/19/starbucks-victims-speak-out-ask-their-arrests-inspire-change/531582002/



They sound well spoken men who don't want this to be all about race either:



So is two minutes too long to sit?  Could the employee have really asked them to leave in two minutes?  I suppose if the employee tells their side we will find out more.

Where are we getting the time of their arrival from? 

[GMDino]

(04-19-2018, 04:18 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Where are we getting the time of their arrival from? 

I'm assuming from them or a police report.

[*PhilHos*]

(04-19-2018, 04:19 PM)GMDino Wrote: I'm assuming from them or a police report.

I gotta be honest, I find it hard to believe the police were called after only 2 minutes UNLESS these guys were extremely disruptive or something like that coming in. Otherwise the person that called the police basically just saw 2 black guys coming in and decided at that point to call the cops.

Either way doesn't make sense to me, so the time is probably off by a few minutes. Enough time to either ask them to order or enough time for the employee to take it upon themselves to phone the cops for whatever bogus reason.

[GMDino]

(04-19-2018, 04:30 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I gotta be honest, I find it hard to believe the police were called after only 2 minutes UNLESS these guys were extremely disruptive or something like that coming in. Otherwise the person that called the police basically just saw 2 black guys coming in and decided at that point to call the cops.

Either way doesn't make sense to me, so the time is probably off by a few minutes. Enough time to either ask them to order or enough time for the employee to take it upon themselves to phone the cops for whatever bogus reason.

Yeah, we need definitive information but this all we have so far.

Is five minutes enough to ask someone to leave?  Six?

Based on the videos they don't look like they were causing a disturbance so I can't imagine they were when they came in.  Or least some of the other patrons would have noted that.  I have seen nothing to imply, infer or straight out accuse them of being disruptive.

[*bfine32*]

(04-19-2018, 04:15 PM)GMDino Wrote: More details:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/04/19/starbucks-victims-speak-out-ask-their-arrests-inspire-change/531582002/



They sound well spoken men who don't want this to be all about race either:



So is two minutes too long to sit?  Could the employee have really asked them to leave in two minutes?  I suppose if the employee tells their side we will find out more.

So one of the accused is stated store personnel asked them to leave? 

Oh never mind it's just describing what happened, so we still cannot be sure.

WTS, What exactly do they want to make sure doesn't happen again? 

[GMDino]

(04-19-2018, 04:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So one of the accused is stated store personnel asked them to leave? 

Oh never mind it's just describing what happened, so we still cannot be sure.

I didn't see that in the articles I shared:

Quote:Nelson asked to use the bathroom, but was told it was for paying customers only, so the two men sat down to wait for the business associate. An employee then came over to ask if they wanted to order anything, but because they had bottled water with them, they declined. The 911 call was placed at 4:37 p.m.

At this point, with all the information we have, no employee "asked them to leave".  The employee may still yet come forward and tell a different story.

(04-19-2018, 04:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: WTS, What exactly do they want to make sure doesn't happen again? 

At this point I think we are trying to keep businesses from calling the police to remove people within a certain set of circumstances.  The two men arrested have said it's about everyone...not just about them or about race.

[*PhilHos*]

(04-19-2018, 04:34 PM)GMDino Wrote: Yeah, we need definitive information but this all we have so far.

Is five minutes enough to ask someone to leave?  Six?

Based on the videos they don't look like they were causing a disturbance so I can't imagine they were when they came in.  Or least some of the other patrons would have noted that.  I have seen nothing to imply, infer or straight out accuse them of being disruptive.

I think 5 minutes would be more than enough, but 2 seems like not enough time for anything.

Until other information comes out that says otherwise, my thought is that these guys came in - and not in a disruptive manner - and sat down. They were asked for an order for which they refused. They were probably told to either buy something or they need to leave. At hearing this, they probably made some snide comment which was probably taken by the employee(s) as attitude (or they responded with an attitude) at which point they were probably asked to leave. They probably thought this wasn't serious and continued to wait and instead of giving them another warning or two, the employee probably just called the police. 

Now, I could be wrong and the employee was a racist in the extreme or these guy scould've been extremely loud, obnoxious and disruptive from the moment they enetered, but what I posted makes the most sense to me.

[GMDino]

(04-19-2018, 05:28 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I think 5 minutes would be more than enough, but 2 seems like not enough time for anything.

Until other information comes out that says otherwise, my thought is that these guys came in - and not in a disruptive manner - and sat down. They were asked for an order for which they refused. They were probably told to either buy something or they need to leave. At hearing this, they probably made some snide comment which was probably taken by the employee(s) as attitude (or they responded with an attitude) at which point they were probably asked to leave. They probably thought this wasn't serious and continued to wait and instead of giving them another warning or two, the employee probably just called the police. 

Now, I could be wrong and the employee was a racist in the extreme or these guy scould've been extremely loud, obnoxious and disruptive from the moment they enetered, but what I posted makes the most sense to me.

That is an interesting theory, but I haven't seen anything from the two men or the videos or anywhere that suggests they would make a"snide comment" at all let alone one that could be taken the wrong way.

All we have is their words.  Until we hear otherwise everything else is simply guesswork.

[*PhilHos*]

(04-19-2018, 05:34 PM)GMDino Wrote: That is an interesting theory, but I haven't seen anything from the two men or the videos or anywhere that suggests they would make a"snide comment" at all let alone one that could be taken the wrong way.

I'm basing that on my belief that the employee that made the call isn't the Grand Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan and just wanted to mess with a couple of black guys. Unless you've got a more logical reason why someone who isn't a deep seated racist would call the cops to remove two people who are innocently loitering. 

(04-19-2018, 05:34 PM)GMDino Wrote: All we have is their words.  Until we hear otherwise everything else is simply guesswork.

Even counting their words, we still only have guesswork. Until there's more evidence and at this point, I highly doubt it'll be anything more than eyewitness testimony, all we have is guesswork. But it does make for an interesting discussion.

[StLucieBengal]

(04-19-2018, 05:34 PM)GMDino Wrote: That is an interesting theory, but I haven't seen anything from the two men or the videos or anywhere that suggests they would make a"snide comment" at all let alone one that could be taken the wrong way.

All we have is their words.  Until we hear otherwise everything else is simply guesswork.

They are. No. Going to Admit They We’re a jerk to workers. They haven’t made any statement that wasn’t worded by an attorney.

[*michaelsean*]

Two minutes would be a ridiculously short time. Race or not, if that’s true, the manager is a moron.

[GMDino]

(04-19-2018, 06:32 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I'm basing that on my belief that the employee that made the call isn't the Grand Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan and just wanted to mess with a couple of black guys. Unless you've got a more logical reason why someone who isn't a deep seated racist would call the cops to remove two people who are innocently loitering. 


Even counting their words, we still only have guesswork. Until there's more evidence and at this point, I highly doubt it'll be anything more than eyewitness testimony, all we have is guesswork. But it does make for an interesting discussion.

We don't know anything about the employee except that they are no longer employed there.  But I've said we need all the information to know what really happened.

The Police commissioner apologized today for making more of a mess of the situation.

(04-19-2018, 06:45 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: They are. No. Going to Admit They We’re a jerk to workers.  They haven’t made any statement that wasn’t worded by an attorney.

Of course they aren't.  But we also have video of them leading up to their arrest and nothing seems to imply they were disrespectful.

Obviously we can wait for the other side to tell their story.

Maybe a publicity seeking right winger will post something else to bring attention to the story.  

[JustWinBaby]

So...after 5 pages, have we decided who is to blame?

I mean, I REALLY don't want to throw the $10 an hour, virtue signaling, white cupcake under the bus.....I'm hoping this is all just a huge misunderstanding.

[GMDino]

(04-20-2018, 04:50 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: So...after 5 pages, have we decided who is to blame?

I mean, I REALLY don't want to throw the $10 an hour, virtue signaling, white cupcake under the bus.....I'm hoping this is all just a huge misunderstanding.

So far all we have is the police commissioner apologized, the two men asked everyone to not make it about race, and their story is there was about two minutes between when they entered and the police were called (911 told us when the police were called).

Maybe it is a huge misunderstanding that got blown out of proportion and we can learn from it.

[jj22]

I think by Starbucks reaction we know who is at fault. People still thinking this is hard to believe have just turned a blind eye to reality and race relations in America.

It's no different then the fear of Muslims. Which is more "acceptable" in this society, but entangles many innocent people practicing their religion who are stereotyped. called names, and openly attacked, and judged every day......We don't judge Christians (a Majority religion). The religion that stood by and supported/committed slavery and the holocaust of the Native Americans and African Slaves/Blacks up through the 1960's. Horrific acts of murder on large scales.

No different then people thinking any Mexican is illegal. Making hurtful comments to them. Which believe it or not, many people.

When an illegal immigrant kills someone it is a black eye on all illegal immigrants. Even kids (DACA).

Women are no different as a minority. If a women becomes President, and does a bad job, it will reflect on all women. It would be the last time a women was president in a long, long time. If Obama was REALLY a bad President and not a "bad president" for political reasons (if he was ghetto acting, under criminal investigation, cheating on wives with porn stars etc.), then it would have hurt the chances of another black president.

It's the plight of the minority. When a non minority commits mass murder (which 95% of mass murderers in America are White men) we don't blame the whole race. We don't talk about European bans. We don't look at groups of them suspiciously. Matter of fact we tend to make excuses for them. "Lone wolf", "Mentally disabled", "Troubled soul".

African Americans like these gentlemen get looked at suspiciously because of crimes committed or acts of other African Americans. It hurts the whole community. And that's why it's believable that this could all happen because they sat down for 2 minutes. It's not as outrageous as some may think. That scares people. Just as a more "acceptable" scenario would be if Muslim man with a backpack came in and sat down. It's still wrong and hurtful for the innocent, a weight that minorities have to carry on their shoulders. A weight (generalization) majority races don't have to worry about.

These are the unfortunate facts of the world we live in. Majorities don't get generalized like Minorities do. Lumped in categories and stereotyped. That's one of the reasons it is difficult for a majority to understand when these situations come up.

[fredtoast]

(04-20-2018, 10:26 AM)jj22 Wrote: I think by Starbucks reaction we know who is at fault. People still thinking this is hard to believe have just turned a blind eye to reality and race relations in America.

It is easy for white people to deny because they are never the subject of it.

I see that all the time around here.  someone claims there is no more racism in America.  I then post a whole list of scientific studies that show identical resumes and housing applications are treated differently based on the ethnicity of the name.  Then I post multiple studies proving that police employ racial profiling.  But instead of any of these people admitting they are wrong they respond "Well, it just doesn't happen very often".  they just refuse to accept that racism still exists.

Then when there is some situation like this they make up a story they "believe" is true where the minority does something to deserve getting treated badly and then tries to blame it on racism.

No amount of proof will change the minds of some people.  They just can't imagine a nice white person being a racist.

[fredtoast]

(04-20-2018, 10:26 AM)jj22 Wrote: It's the plight of the minority. When a non minority commits mass murder (which 95% of mass murderers in America are White men) we don't blame the whole race. We don't talk about European bans. We don't look at groups of them suspiciously. Matter of fact we tend to make excuses for them. "Lone wolf", "Mentally disabled", "Troubled soul". 

Exactly.  Every innocent Muslim in this country is blamed for every extremist bombing because they didn't "police themselves" or "turn in extremist".

But no one was bitching at all the rich white people for not turning in Stephen Paddock.

[*PhilHos*]

(04-20-2018, 04:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is easy for white people to deny because they are never the subject of it.

False. White people have been indeed victims of racism. Sure, it pales in comparison to people of color, but to say they have "never" been victims of it is disingenuous, at best.

[fredtoast]

(04-20-2018, 04:27 PM)PhilHos Wrote: False. White people have been indeed victims of racism. Sure, it pales in comparison to people of color, but to say they have "never" been victims of it is disingenuous, at best.

I was trying to give you an out, but why do so many white people try to deny racism exists, or claim it "is not that common", or make up facts that prove "they did something to deserve it"?