Is US ready to shut down power plants?

[Luvnit2]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/top-republicans-raise-alarm-bidens-power-plant-regs-growing-risks-electric-reliability
In May, the Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA) unveiled power plant regulations targeting fossil fuel-fired power plant emissions as part of the administration's broader climate agenda. The agency said the plan would avoid 617 million metric tons of carbon pollution through 2042 via new standards forcing coal and gas plants to either utilize carbon capture technology or shut down.
However, industry groups and experts warned that the proposal, which remains in a public comment period until early August, could lead to early retirements of reliable, dispatchable generation and, as a result, power supply shortfalls. Fossil fuels generate more than 60% of total U.S. electricity while renewable energy sources like wind and solar generate 14%, federal data shows.


I hope the Biden administration is not acting too quickly on climate control initiatives and we lack the electrical energy to keep electric flowing to the entire US. This would be a self inflicted wound for Biden and Democrats if that happens.

[*pally*]

History has long shown that the majority of business people will not willingly spend money modernizing their plants until forced to.

[Luvnit2]

(07-05-2023, 08:09 PM)pally Wrote: History has long shown that the majority of business people will not willingly spend money modernizing their plants until forced to.

Did you read the article?  If so, I think you would understand through Biden regulations these plants will be forced to close. I hope no one experiences power outages in the US as a result, but we have senators concerned it may happen.

[Stewy]

(07-05-2023, 08:09 PM)pally Wrote: History has long shown that the majority of business people will not willingly spend money modernizing their plants until forced to.

Yep.  But the real kicker here is that these kinds of laws will phase out old plants that renewables are going to make obsolete anyway.  It's like making a law that outlaws leaded fuel gasoline, when none of those types of vehicles have been made for decades.  

Regardless of the far lefts vision of a completely renewable future, the rest of us must livei n the real world where renewables have a HUGE sustainability problem.  Storage cells don't exist, nor the science to make storage cells large enough to store power for the grid for more than a couple hours.  If a wind storm destroys a wind farm or a hurricane a solar farm, that's power off the grid for years.  Renewable energy is also further a fallacy because solar panels go bad, and need replaced, wind turbine break down, and need maintenance.  The parts to replace them take HUGE amounts of energy to produce, and while they're down, where does the power come from?  No where is the answer.  

Thus until power storage technology leaps a hundreds years in a day or Fusion Power technology over comes it's hurdles and advances two centuries in a night, we are stuck with some amount of HCs in our future just to limit the effects of renewables lack of sustainability.

Funny really.  if Biden just listened to the European major oil companies, they'd get on board with their plans, which show a 70% reduction in HC production by 2050, with the gap being made up by Renewables.

Here's what my company is doing with Renewables.  Currently TTE is the 4th largest oil company in the world - but the #1 investor of the major energy companies in renewables.  And this is all true.  No BS, grand standing placation.  I have colleagues who have left the HC exploration side of the business to move to these other business units.  TTE's renewables budget dwarfs our HC exploration budget.

https://totalenergies.com/energy-expertise/exploration-production/renewable-energies/solar-energy-and-wind-energy

[treee]

(07-05-2023, 08:22 PM)Stewy Wrote: Yep.  But the real kicker here is that these kinds of laws will phase out old plants that renewables are going to make obsolete anyway.  It's like making a law that outlaws leaded fuel gasoline, when none of those types of vehicles have been made for decades.  

Regardless of the far lefts vision of a completely renewable future, the rest of us must livei n the real world where renewables have a HUGE sustainability problem.  Storage cells don't exist, nor the science to make storage cells large enough to store power for the grid for more than a couple hours.  If a wind storm destroys a wind farm or a hurricane a solar farm, that's power off the grid for years.  Renewable energy is also further a fallacy because solar panels go bad, and need replaced, wind turbine break down, and need maintenance.  The parts to replace them take HUGE amounts of energy to produce, and while they're down, where does the power come from?  No where is the answer.  

Thus until power storage technology leaps a hundreds years in a day or Fusion Power technology over comes it's hurdles and advances two centuries in a night, we are stuck with some amount of HCs in our future just to limit the effects of renewables lack of sustainability.

Funny really.  if Biden just listened to the European major oil companies, they'd get on board with their plans, which show a 70% reduction in HC production by 2050, with the gap being made up by Renewables.

Here's what my company is doing with Renewables.  Currently TTE is the 4th largest oil company in the world - but the #1 investor of the major energy companies in renewables.  And this is all true.  No BS, grand standing placation.  I have colleagues who have left the HC exploration side of the business to move to these other business units.  TTE's renewables budget dwarfs our HC exploration budget.

https://totalenergies.com/energy-expertise/exploration-production/renewable-energies/solar-energy-and-wind-energy

We can simultaneously aggressively push for renewables while also making sure these older power stations are ready to pick up the slack in an emergency right? It's not a binary choice.

[*Synric*]

A side effect to closing coal power plants is the closing of the Gypsum Drywall plants too.

[Stewy]

(07-05-2023, 09:18 PM)treee Wrote: We can simultaneously aggressively push for renewables while also making sure these older power stations are ready to pick up the slack in an emergency right? It's not a binary choice.

Never said it was.  As a matter of fact that is what I was advocating.  The problem is most of the far left are so ignorant of reality, that they only see things a all or nothing (and I guess to be fair the far right is the opposite but the same).  However, I am not worried about them because they have no money (far left).  Govt's don't have the money to make this transition.  It is the energy companies that will move us forward toward the energy transition because they are the ones who #1 - have the money to do so, #2 - Have the KNOWHOW to do so as they have been providing the world power for a over a century and #3 - Are actually doing something about it, which activists are not and cannot and gov't can't get out of their own way to act.

And it's a political bombshell, whichever side you're on especially with politicians more worried about getting re-elected than governing, the two sides are stalemated.  The far left screams "End Oil Completely" which is dumb and impossible.  The govt can't tell them their idiots, nor can the govt work with the energy companies on the Energy Transition because that would look bad, when the far left wants it all black and the far right wants it all white, thus the Energy companies are ignoring both and actually doing something.

[Stewy]

NOTE Below:  When I say liberal or conservative, I mean the extremists, representing the hugely vocal radical minorities of each group.  This post is not intended to speak  specifically to anyone HERE reading it, but is purely for informational purposes.

I thought I would give some perspective on some misinformation that circulates out there about renewables.

Texas Freeze  Feb. 2021 - ERCOT the Texas power grid failed during the days long hard freeze, which froze power plants and wind turbines.  This one created misinformation (if not down right lies) on both the conservative and liberal fronts.
Truth - nearly 40% of the power provided through ERCOT is not fueled by hydrocarbons, but by wind, solar and nuclear.  As a matter of fact Texas has the highest % of it's power generated by non-HCs in the country.
---  Abbot the idiot Republican governor of Texas blamed the Wind Turbines freezing on the failure of the grid, when in reality the Natural Gas power plants froze too.  The whole system was unprepared for the multiday sub 10 degree F temperatures.  But again Abbot is an idiot and a disgrace - IMO.  
---  Liberals in turn blamed the failure on the reliance on HCs, ignoring the frozen wind turbines and Texas' extremely high % of renewables.

Liberal Lie - Renewable sources are much less susceptible to adverse weather than HC fueled power stations.  They point to refineries going down (mostly after Katrina) during hurricanes as evidence, and of course the Texas Power grid.  Firstly, refineries don't produce power so that argument is apples vs. oranges and while the LA refineries were cleaning up (they were down 2-4 weeks), the rest of the US refineries picked up the slack.
--- Frankly this is one of the dumbest things I've seen recently, and there is no evidence to support, but multitudes to refute it.
- https://www.energy.gov/eere/water/articles/study-finds-hydropower-provides-reliable-electricity-even-during-historic - while this report (2021) says even in drought conditions the region can balance power load, the level of drought had become so severe, that two large hydroelectric dams were projected to shut down in 2024, but that was before the massive flooding and rains and snows of Winter 2023, which were not expected.  This is where Lake Meade was before the hugely unexpected Winter.  https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/30/us/colorado-river-lake-mead-drought-2023-climate/index.html  But nature saved us and it's a good thing.  But it just goes to show that renewables are NOT nearly as sustainable as HC power.  They're both needed to supplement each other and provide reliable energy.
- Solar Farm nearly destroyed by hail - https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/solar/solar-farm-pelted-by-giant-hail-as-severe-storm-ripped-through-nebraska/#gref - there's no repairing this.  The panels have to be replaced, which will be time consuming and expensive.  Hope they were insured.
- St Thomas solar farm destroyed 2017 by hurricane Irma - 4.5 years till operational again - https://stthomassource.com/content/2021/04/28/st-thomas-solar-farm-projected-to-be-back-online-before-years-end/

I could go on and on with the last point.  There are multitudes of examples.

[NATI BENGALS]

(07-06-2023, 02:48 PM)Stewy Wrote: NOTE Below:  When I say liberal or conservative, I mean the extremists, representing the hugely vocal radical minorities of each group.  This post is not intended to speak  specifically to anyone HERE reading it, but is purely for informational purposes.

I thought I would give some perspective on some misinformation that circulates out there about renewables.

Texas Freeze  Feb. 2021 - ERCOT the Texas power grid failed during the days long hard freeze, which froze power plants and wind turbines.  This one created misinformation (if not down right lies) on both the conservative and liberal fronts.
Truth - nearly 40% of the power provided through ERCOT is not fueled by hydrocarbons, but by wind, solar and nuclear.  As a matter of fact Texas has the highest % of it's power generated by non-HCs in the country.
---  Abbot the idiot Republican governor of Texas blamed the Wind Turbines freezing on the failure of the grid, when in reality the Natural Gas power plants froze too.  The whole system was unprepared for the multiday sub 10 degree F temperatures.  But again Abbot is an idiot and a disgrace - IMO.  
---  Liberals in turn blamed the failure on the reliance on HCs, ignoring the frozen wind turbines and Texas' extremely high % of renewables.

Liberal Lie - Renewable sources are much less susceptible to adverse weather than HC fueled power stations.  They point to refineries going down (mostly after Katrina) during hurricanes as evidence, and of course the Texas Power grid.  Firstly, refineries don't produce power so that argument is apples vs. oranges and while the LA refineries were cleaning up (they were down 2-4 weeks), the rest of the US refineries picked up the slack.
--- Frankly this is one of the dumbest things I've seen recently, and there is no evidence to support, but multitudes to refute it.
- https://www.energy.gov/eere/water/articles/study-finds-hydropower-provides-reliable-electricity-even-during-historic - while this report (2021) says even in drought conditions the region can balance power load, the level of drought had become so severe, that two large hydroelectric dams were projected to shut down in 2024, but that was before the massive flooding and rains and snows of Winter 2023, which were not expected.  This is where Lake Meade was before the hugely unexpected Winter.  https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/30/us/colorado-river-lake-mead-drought-2023-climate/index.html  But nature saved us and it's a good thing.  But it just goes to show that renewables are NOT nearly as sustainable as HC power.  They're both needed to supplement each other and provide reliable energy.
- Solar Farm nearly destroyed by hail - https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/solar/solar-farm-pelted-by-giant-hail-as-severe-storm-ripped-through-nebraska/#gref - there's no repairing this.  The panels have to be replaced, which will be time consuming and expensive.  Hope they were insured.
- St Thomas solar farm destroyed 2017 by hurricane Irma - 4.5 years till operational again - https://stthomassource.com/content/2021/04/28/st-thomas-solar-farm-projected-to-be-back-online-before-years-end/

I could go on and on with the last point.  There are multitudes of examples.

Interesting stuff. The natural disaster factor on solar farms including hail is a problem I have never considered. Unless every panel had the means of moving and being able to prevent destruction it is a real risk. And would make me hesitant of any massive investments. Hopefully they can continue to improve solar cell efficiency and we see them on every rooftop.

Idk how much of it is marketing and bs and how much is truth. But if they can produce hydrogen out of untreated ocean water, transport it through pipelines, store it, and even get bonus byproducts that can be utilized elsewhere. Idk how that is not the future. The company shyp says they can 3d print membrane that will do it. And as far as renewables go, making fuel out of ocean water and taking it another level and making the combustion of hydrogen produce clean water sounds really promising.

[GMDino]

(07-06-2023, 02:48 PM)Stewy Wrote: NOTE Below:  When I say liberal or conservative, I mean the extremists, representing the hugely vocal radical minorities of each group.  This post is not intended to speak  specifically to anyone HERE reading it, but is purely for informational purposes.

I thought I would give some perspective on some misinformation that circulates out there about renewables.

Texas Freeze  Feb. 2021 - ERCOT the Texas power grid failed during the days long hard freeze, which froze power plants and wind turbines.  This one created misinformation (if not down right lies) on both the conservative and liberal fronts.
Truth - nearly 40% of the power provided through ERCOT is not fueled by hydrocarbons, but by wind, solar and nuclear.  As a matter of fact Texas has the highest % of it's power generated by non-HCs in the country.
---  Abbot the idiot Republican governor of Texas blamed the Wind Turbines freezing on the failure of the grid, when in reality the Natural Gas power plants froze too.  The whole system was unprepared for the multiday sub 10 degree F temperatures.  But again Abbot is an idiot and a disgrace - IMO.  
---  Liberals in turn blamed the failure on the reliance on HCs, ignoring the frozen wind turbines and Texas' extremely high % of renewables.

Liberal Lie - Renewable sources are much less susceptible to adverse weather than HC fueled power stations.  They point to refineries going down (mostly after Katrina) during hurricanes as evidence, and of course the Texas Power grid.  Firstly, refineries don't produce power so that argument is apples vs. oranges and while the LA refineries were cleaning up (they were down 2-4 weeks), the rest of the US refineries picked up the slack.
--- Frankly this is one of the dumbest things I've seen recently, and there is no evidence to support, but multitudes to refute it.
- https://www.energy.gov/eere/water/articles/study-finds-hydropower-provides-reliable-electricity-even-during-historic - while this report (2021) says even in drought conditions the region can balance power load, the level of drought had become so severe, that two large hydroelectric dams were projected to shut down in 2024, but that was before the massive flooding and rains and snows of Winter 2023, which were not expected.  This is where Lake Meade was before the hugely unexpected Winter.  https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/30/us/colorado-river-lake-mead-drought-2023-climate/index.html  But nature saved us and it's a good thing.  But it just goes to show that renewables are NOT nearly as sustainable as HC power.  They're both needed to supplement each other and provide reliable energy.
- Solar Farm nearly destroyed by hail - https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/solar/solar-farm-pelted-by-giant-hail-as-severe-storm-ripped-through-nebraska/#gref - there's no repairing this.  The panels have to be replaced, which will be time consuming and expensive.  Hope they were insured.
- St Thomas solar farm destroyed 2017 by hurricane Irma - 4.5 years till operational again - https://stthomassource.com/content/2021/04/28/st-thomas-solar-farm-projected-to-be-back-online-before-years-end/

I could go on and on with the last point.  There are multitudes of examples.

A few things, and I'm not even arguing with you...lol. Your post just made me thing of a couple things I wanted to add.

The Texas grid had this happen before.  Didn't matter what the sources of energy were the providers didn't do the investments necessary to prevent it from happening again.  They also have a problem in the extreme heat every year (as California has occasionally) and I'd bet that the changes won't be made now either.

There is no denying that any mechanical thing can break down/be damaged.  Solar panels in the Arizona desert probably won't have a hail storm though. 

California has a nuclear plant built on a fault line.  Wind farms along coast lines can be hit with hurricanes.  As we invest more in those the items need to repair them and the technicians who know how to will be more prevalent and the time and cost to repair replace will come down also.

You mentioned the refineries.  My personal opinion coincides with yours in that we need a solid mix of all of them because to me when the refineries are hit oil price speculation soars and everything down the line follows as the backups are not that wide spread enough.

And everything above comes down to investments.  Something too many are wary to do.  And that doesn't even cover the national powergrid.

[Belsnickel]

(07-06-2023, 12:46 PM)Stewy Wrote: Never said it was.  As a matter of fact that is what I was advocating.  The problem is most of the far left are so ignorant of reality, that they only see things a all or nothing (and I guess to be fair the far right is the opposite but the same).  However, I am not worried about them because they have no money (far left).  Govt's don't have the money to make this transition.  It is the energy companies that will move us forward toward the energy transition because they are the ones who #1 - have the money to do so, #2 - Have the KNOWHOW to do so as they have been providing the world power for a over a century and #3 - Are actually doing something about it, which activists are not and cannot and gov't can't get out of their own way to act.

And it's a political bombshell, whichever side you're on especially with politicians more worried about getting re-elected than governing, the two sides are stalemated.  The far left screams "End Oil Completely" which is dumb and impossible.  The govt can't tell them their idiots, nor can the govt work with the energy companies on the Energy Transition because that would look bad, when the far left wants it all black and the far right wants it all white, thus the Energy companies are ignoring both and actually doing something.

Wait, so you're saying that much like every topic in politics it is more nuanced than the average person has been led to believe?!

I am shocked. Shocked, I say.

Ok, I'm not really, but I know there are plenty of people on here when it comes to plenty of issues that like to think issues are black-and-white/all-or-nothing types of things when in reality there is always a lot of nuance involved. It's just always nice to have a reminder of that from someone other than me.

(07-06-2023, 02:48 PM)Stewy Wrote: NOTE Below:  When I say liberal or conservative, I mean the extremists, representing the hugely vocal radical minorities of each group.  This post is not intended to speak  specifically to anyone HERE reading it, but is purely for informational purposes.

I thought I would give some perspective on some misinformation that circulates out there about renewables.

Texas Freeze  Feb. 2021 - ERCOT the Texas power grid failed during the days long hard freeze, which froze power plants and wind turbines.  This one created misinformation (if not down right lies) on both the conservative and liberal fronts.

My understanding of the biggest issue in Texas (beyond them ignoring warnings about that sort of thing happening) was their insistence on independence from the rest of the power grid meaning when they had their failures it left them hanging out to dry because they weren't tied in enough to get any sort of help from surrounding states. I never even paid attention to the whole what froze when. Just that it did, they had been warned it could happen, and that their hubris led them to be disconnected from the sort of help other states would've had if it had happened to them.

[samhain]

(07-05-2023, 08:13 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Did you read the article?  If so, I think you would understand through Biden regulations these plants will be forced to close. I hope no one experiences power outages in the US as a result, but we have senators concerned it may happen.

I heard on the back channels that Hunter had been training to fly airplanes.  He's going to do a suicide run for dad and Soros is gonna do another seeing that he's near death.

After they all get blasted on crack, adrenachrome and baby blood, they're going to fly the biggest damned planes they can find, loaded with surplus nuclear weapons DIRECTLY into the biggest god damned power plant they can find.  

You're on to something here, Patriot! Keep up the good work.